Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

[elcrunkus]

does ocean really have any say themselves in any of the dragonball dubs in terms of production? I just thought they were a voice studio.

[Ringworm128]

There's probably another company who does all the business side of things but whoever owns the rights also has the legal right to do whatever they want with the show (providing Toei approves).

[penguintruth]

Ocean owns the rights for the show in Canada they have every right to change the music. I seriously will never understand the whole "it's not the original, therefore it sucks" logic.

Ocean has the legal right, not the moral right.

Ocean didn't create Dragon Ball Kai. They have an duty to the show to keep it as close to the original as possible.

[kei17]

So in this case, they should make a dub score version for TV broadcasts and a faithful version for uncut home video releases.

[Pokewhiz7]

So in this case, they should make a dub score version for TV broadcasts and a faithful version for uncut home video releases.

I wouldn't like that. I can't really think of a good way to word this, but if you think of the Ocean Kai dub as a product by itself, then the replacement music for the show "Dragon Ball Kai" is the real music for the "Dragon Ball Kai Ocean Dub," just like how I consider the Faulconer music the real music for the "Dragon Ball Z FUNimation In-House Dub," but not Dragon Ball Z itself. I guess I have a strange way of looking at it. Maybe the best solution would be to include both the dub with the replacement music and the dub with the Japanese music.

[Super Sayian Prime]

Penguintruth, would you explode if it was revealed that Toei itself commissioned this dub and in fact said okay to the replacement score as it'll be the official Kai score for every future licensee?

Ocean owns the rights for the show in Canada they have every right to change the music. I seriously will never understand the whole "it's not the original, therefore it sucks" logic.

Ocean owns no rights to anything. They've just been contracted to do English language work. Ocean has never owned, licensed, etc. a show they've worked on.

So in this case, they should make a dub score version for TV broadcasts and a faithful version for uncut home video releases.

There likely won't be a home release of this dub for that to happen.

[dbboxkaifan]

Ocean didn't create Dragon Ball Kai. They have an duty to the show to keep it as close to the original as possible.

Let's use Vejita's Final Flash scene as an example, this is the original intended version and this is the replacement, you can clearly hear the difference and see the replacement isn't the intended score for Kai.

Toei Animation removed the original purpose of Kai by extracting its authentic soundtrack and replacing with something outdated and unfitting.

Doesn't look like Ocean will be able to use Yamamoto's score so imma guess you're talking about the replacement Kikuchi score.

[Pokewhiz7]

Toei Animation removed the original purpose of Kai by extracting its authentic soundtrack and replacing with something outdated and unfitting.

The point of Kai is the music? Not to remove filler or make it look newer or anything?
Anyway, I watched that scene with the Kikuchi music. Seemed fine to me.

[Ringworm128]

Ocean has the legal right, not the moral right.

Ocean didn't create Dragon Ball Kai. They have an duty to the show to keep it as close to the original as possible.

Well that's just your opinion. I would rather watch a well placed replacement score then a Kikuchi placement that's meh.

[penguintruth]

Penguintruth, would you explode if it was revealed that Toei itself commissioned this dub and in fact said okay to the replacement score as it'll be the official Kai score for every future licensee?

If Toei decides it will be the official Kai score, then it becomes the official Kai score. Toei made the show.

I don't know why this is so difficult for you people to understand.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I doubt Kirby Morrow will be given a different role if he wasn't cast as Goku

Why not?

Well, I said "doubt," not that I definitively know this to be the case. However, here's why I doubt it:

1) He didn't mention auditioning for Trunks. He would have, too, because when he first announced that he wouldn't be reprising Goku because the producers said he sounded "too cool," the guy he was talking to (his co-host?) said something to the effect of, "Are you sure you can say that?" Kirby then replied with, "I didn't sign anything that says I can't talk about this." If he was playing a role, they would have had him sign an NDA.

2) The only reason we would have to believe that he's playing Trunks is from a wiki article. Wiki articles can contain reliable information, but they're not beyond containing inaccurate information. In fact, quite often, they do contain inaccurate information. Let's not forget that this wiki also said that Brina Palencia would be playing Goten in Kai.

3) Personal reasons on his part. Kirby has said that Goku was one of his favorite roles. As an actor, I'd have to imagine it would be pretty difficult, on a personal level, to play the lead role for a few years--a role that you really liked--only for someone to come back and say, "We want someone else...but you can play a different character if you like." It would be kind of like "adding salt to the wound," so to speak.

4) The company probably didn't ask him to play another character, though, because of potential fan fallout from fans who liked Kirby's portrayal of Goku. It's possible that they want to avoid too much hatred from people who would say, "HEY, he's still in the dub, why isn't he playing the character he originally did!?"

I'm pretty certain we won't hear Kirby Morrow in another role in the Ocean dub of Kai, though. Pretty certain. Not completely. We'll find out for sure when the Ocean dub airs, but I'd be shocked if they had him playing a different role.

Ah, I understand now. Didn't know about the wiki also saying that Brina Palencia would be playing Goten in Kai. On number 4, though, I think that's probably the least likely option, since fans of Kirby Morrow's Gokuu are in the minority.

A job's a job. Voice actors can't afford to be picky. It's not exactly a high paying field.

Eh...yeah, that's true...for the most part. There are exceptions, though. I think a more accurate way to put it would be that voice actors can't afford to be too picky. Years before I became a voice actor, one of my mentors told me, "If you think it's difficult getting work, wait until you're faced with the dilemma of having to turn down work."

With non-union voice acting, there's been a lot of talk over the past few years over what constitutes a "fair" rate for different projects, and voice actors are strongly encouraged not to take jobs with rates that are too low for fear of setting an industry precedent that quality work can be achieved at dirt-cheap rates. I became a union voice actor (partially) because non-union voice acting was, in my humble opinion, racing to the bottom as far as rates were concerned. I've seen some absolutely absurd rates suggested on the non-union end of the industry, the most memorable of which was a client who only wanted to pay $5 for the narration of an entire medical journal. It's not particularly uncommon, of course, that many voice actors will still take the lower-paying work anyway because they've got bills to pay and families to feed, but they risk the scorn of other actors for contributing to the "race to the bottom" as far as rates are concerned. Not to mention the risk of eroding their own business when other clients start asking, "How come you charged a high rate for me, but a low rate for the other guy?"

So voice actors are encouraged to turn down work if it doesn't pay enough. Some do, some don't. It's for this reason that some of the original Japanese cast members didn't return, and why the majority of the original Latin Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese dub casts didn't return.

Yeah, isn't this the reason Ian Corlett left?

Ocean owns the rights for the show in Canada they have every right to change the music. I seriously will never understand the whole "it's not the original, therefore it sucks" logic.

Ocean has the legal right, not the moral right.

Ocean didn't create Dragon Ball Kai. They have an duty to the show to keep it as close to the original as possible.

"Moral" is probably the wrong word here, but I agree with your point.

[RazorX]

Really? Because it was obvious to me the first time I heard Klassen's Roshi that it was him. Nobody had to tell me. Klassen's voice is pretty recognizable. Whether it be Kuririn, the Mole Man (Escaflowne), or Hachi (Inu Yasha). I always know when it's him.

You may have heard more of his voices than me and perhaps heard him do his Roshi voice before. I could tell some other characters Klassan voiced without having to read about it, such as Babidi, Bibidi and Guldo, but his Roshi voice is very different from those other voices.

Using the Kikuchi score was Toei's decision. Toei made the show, it's their decision to make. So yes, I would call for Kikuchi. The English version of an anime should be an English version of the Japanese show, not it's own show. It's not Ocean's place to put their own music in, end of story. They could get John Williams and Danny Elfman to compose the replacement music and I still would not care, because Toei didn't hire them to do that.

The reason I put Takaki in that scenario is not because he's a good composer (he is) but because, considering the route Toei has taken for the musical side of the DB franchise, Takaki has replaced Kikuchi and Yamamoto as the official music composer for Dragon Ball. By using Takaki, Ocean would be keeping closer to the original intent of the producers of Kai rather than using Kikuchi. I'll elaborate.

Let's look at what Toei wanted to achieve with Kai. They wanted to give Dragon Ball Z a HD remastering and bring it into the 21st century. A big part of that was composing a brand new musical score which would drastically help modernise the series. I suspect that they could've hired Kikuchi from the start, but he probably could not detract from his style to produce music which is acceptable as very modern for the 21st century.

Another aspect Toei wanted was to enhance the 'cinematic' feeling the show would give. Kenji Yamamoto proved to do both things spectacularly.

So with the HD remastering, brand new modern cinematic music and are-recorded voice track, Toei achieved their objectives to bring Dragon Ball into the 21st century. That was their objective for the series and anyone who supports original music because 'thats what the producers intended' should keep that in mind.

Now with the circumstances unfolded and Toei having to drastically replace the music, they had little choice but use music which was already produced. Kikuchi's music is decent, but it is outdated and not as cinematic as Yamamoto's music. By using Kikuchi's music, one of the biggest intents of the prodcers have been thrown out the window. Kai with Kikuchi is no longer quite so modern because the Yamamoto music enhances its modernisation objective far more than the re-recorded voice track or even the HD remastering.

Unable or unwilling to use Kenji Yamamoto, Toei contracted Takaki to producer music for the Ultimate Tenkaichi cutscenes and the Episode of Bardock Anime. The music for both carried over to the new style and direction that Toei wants to to take with the Dragon Ball franchise, it is modern and cinematic. Takaki's and Yamamoto's style are fairly close to each other and both are fairly different to Kikuchi's style.

All this analysis leads to the conclusion that Toei's original intent for Kai conflicts with the use of Kikuchi's music and therefore, if a studio hires Takaki to compose music for Kai, it can be argued that they are keeping closer to the intent of the producers, so the argument that dubbing studios should use Kikuchi doesn't hold much weight in terms of supporting the original music.

Calling for Kikuchi's music simply because that is the replacement music Toei used without considering the intent of Toei for Kai and the circumstances in which Kikuchi's music was thrown in is looking at things from a very limited perspective.

If you think replacing Yamamoto's material with Kikuchi's was a mistake, fine, then it was a mistake, but it was Toei's mistake, and they have the right to. It just means they made a mistake. But it isn't the place of Ocean or any other dub studio to fix mistakes in a show. It's their job to provide an English version of the Japanese show. Period.

Using Kikuchi's music was a mistake and it conflicts with Toei's intent for Kai. But if dubbing studios fix the mistake make the show more enjoyable in the process, they should be commended. Ocean should definitely replace the music.

I suppose like a lot of things in life, what you've been exposed to before has an effect to the stances you take, whatever the extent it may be.

I love Ocean's replacement music in the Buu saga and wouldn't dream of replacing it with Kikuchi's (though I wouldn't mind a seperate Ocean audio track with Kikuchi's music) because I can enjoy the Kikuchi music on the original Japanese track and IMO, there has always been decent music alongside the Ocean voice cast.

You've shown dislike for the replacement music in the dubs you watched (Faulconer and Menza) and I agree with that, if the replacement is from Menza, I'd choose the Kai Kikuchi music without hesitation, despite its flaws.

Another point; I want to discourage people from taking the dangerous "take whatever the producers give us" view that you're displaying. Because as consumers, if we don't like certain aspects of what the producers are doing with a product but we want to product, then we should make that known so that the producers give us what we want. And, believe it or not, if enough people complain and/or make their voices heard, it does work. Such as the return of Ocean, many people complained about Funimation, in the English speaking countries. The producers knew that there was a demand for Dragon Ball in English speaking countries and they also knew that there was a demand for the Ocean dub, so Ocean were brought back.

Would Ocean have been brought back if fans had remained quite and "took whatever they were given?" Well there was a demand for Dragon Ball but it's possible that a cheaper dubbing studio may have been utilised to create a new English dub. By producing the Ocean dub, the contractors gave the consumers what they wanted, and they made a nice amount of money in the process.

And of course, we also have the Ocean dub of Kai, because there is a demand for the Ocean dub.

So, the producers do listen and whatever the results may be, I believe we as fans should make known that the Kikuchi music needs to be replaced.

does ocean really have any say themselves in any of the dragonball dubs in terms of production? I just thought they were a voice studio.

Depends how much creative freedom the contractors give Ocean.

In the first dub from Funimation, Ocean had limited creative control, the music was handled by Saban while Funimation oversaw most other aspects. I suspect Ocean had creative control over voice casting.

In the second dub from AB Groupe/Toei Animation; Ocean had a lot more creative control and were able to dub the show to a level which was more mature than their first dub (far less editing, use of words such as die and kill, use of blood etc) and chose their in house composers to handle the music.

With Dragon Ball Kai, we'll have to wait and see how much creative control Ocean have. So far, they appear to have a lot of creative control over voice casting.

Ocean has the legal right, not the moral right.

There have been instances of unbelievable unprofessionalism in the placement of Kikuchi's music that actually insult the music itself and show disregard to it, that dubbing studios, not just Ocean, have a moral obligation to replace the music. Not just to maintain the integrity of the Kikuchi music, but also to save their fans from having to listen to what does feel like 5-6 themes playing for a lot of episodes consecutively.

The comparison of Vegeta's final flash scene linked by dbboxkaifan is another good indication of how flat the Kikuchi music is for Kai, compared to Yamamoto.

If Toei decides it will be the official Kai score, then it becomes the official Kai score. Toei made the show.

I don't know why this is so difficult for you people to understand.

I don't know why it's so difficult for you to understand that there's a difference between the intent of the producers for the show and the replacement they had to use which was not their intent.

Supporting Kikuchi with the reason 'that it is what the producers intended' is a fallacy. Supporting Kikuchi because you happen to like it in Kai is a different matter.

Ocean need to replace the music for Kai, it just needs to be done.

[penguintruth]

This is not a matter of taste. Yes, I do enjoy Shunsuke Kikuchi and Kenji Yamamoto's work and I even think the placement of Kikuchi's music in Kai is fine. But that's not the crux of the matter.

If Toei decides to suddenly change the music for Kai to polka music, it doesn't matter whether I like it or not, it's their show, they made it, their decision stands as law. Now, you can always say you don't like the Kikuchi music in Kai, and that's fine. But since Toei decided to replace Yamamoto's music with it, it became the Kai music. Whatever music Toei decides to use becomes the music of Kai, regardless of whether you or I like it.

I don't know how I can explain this any simpler. Your personal tastes are irrelevant.

I mean, there are some anime I dislike the soundtrack for, but I don't go demanding they change it for the English dub. What you want is exactly what Funimation did when they put Bruce Faulconer's music in, disregard the intent of the studio who made it. Now, yes, the original intent was for Kai to have the Yamamoto music, but that intent changed after kicking his music out. It's their call. You can argue all you want about how a licensor/dub studio is probably granted the legal right by Toei to change the music, and therefore it should be okay, but it simply isn't a representation of the Japanese version of the show. And in my opinion, an English dub of an anime should largely reflect the Japanese version.

Nobody's forcing you to LIKE the Kikuchi music in Kai, but that's the music Toei used to replace Yamamoto's.

You gotta deal with it!

[TheBlackPaladin]

A job's a job. Voice actors can't afford to be picky. It's not exactly a high paying field.

Eh...yeah, that's true...for the most part. There are exceptions, though. I think a more accurate way to put it would be that voice actors can't afford to be too picky. Years before I became a voice actor, one of my mentors told me, "If you think it's difficult getting work, wait until you're faced with the dilemma of having to turn down work."

With non-union voice acting, there's been a lot of talk over the past few years over what constitutes a "fair" rate for different projects, and voice actors are strongly encouraged not to take jobs with rates that are too low for fear of setting an industry precedent that quality work can be achieved at dirt-cheap rates. I became a union voice actor (partially) because non-union voice acting was, in my humble opinion, racing to the bottom as far as rates were concerned. I've seen some absolutely absurd rates suggested on the non-union end of the industry, the most memorable of which was a client who only wanted to pay $5 for the narration of an entire medical journal. It's not particularly uncommon, of course, that many voice actors will still take the lower-paying work anyway because they've got bills to pay and families to feed, but they risk the scorn of other actors for contributing to the "race to the bottom" as far as rates are concerned. Not to mention the risk of eroding their own business when other clients start asking, "How come you charged a high rate for me, but a low rate for the other guy?"

So voice actors are encouraged to turn down work if it doesn't pay enough. Some do, some don't. It's for this reason that some of the original Japanese cast members didn't return, and why the majority of the original Latin Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese dub casts didn't return.

Yeah, isn't this the reason Ian Corlett left?

Yup. That's precisely why Ian Corlett left.

It can be really, really tough to turn down work as a voice actor, but sometimes you have to.

[Ringworm128]

This is not a matter of taste. Yes, I do enjoy Shunsuke Kikuchi and Kenji Yamamoto's work and I even think the placement of Kikuchi's music in Kai is fine. But that's not the crux of the matter.

If Toei decides to suddenly change the music for Kai to polka music, it doesn't matter whether I like it or not, it's their show, they made it, their decision stands as law. Now, you can always say you don't like the Kikuchi music in Kai, and that's fine. But since Toei decided to replace Yamamoto's music with it, it became the Kai music. Whatever music Toei decides to use becomes the music of Kai, regardless of whether you or I like it.

I don't know how I can explain this any simpler. Your personal tastes are irrelevant.

I mean, there are some anime I dislike the soundtrack for, but I don't go demanding they change it for the English dub. What you want is exactly what Funimation did when they put Bruce Faulconer's music in, disregard the intent of the studio who made it. Now, yes, the original intent was for Kai to have the Yamamoto music, but that intent changed after kicking his music out. It's their call. You can argue all you want about how a licensor/dub studio is probably granted the legal right by Toei to change the music, and therefore it should be okay, but it simply isn't a representation of the Japanese version of the show. And in my opinion, an English dub of an anime should largely reflect the Japanese version.

Nobody's forcing you to LIKE the Kikuchi music in Kai, but that's the music Toei used to replace Yamamoto's.

You gotta deal with it!

We don't want to deal with it! This whole "Toei can f..k the show up as much as they like because they have the "moral" right and nobody is aloud to fix it" thing is complete and utter BULLS..T! We should be allowed to have a score that has GOOD placement and a score that doesn't have the same bunch of tracks playing over and over in order to improve the show PERIOD! and the fact that the company who made the show won't be the one making said score isn't a good enough reason for me to not want this score. If you're going to use "moral rights" as an excuse then technically Toei has NO rights! They didn't make Dragonball, Akira Toriyama did, they just made the anime and even if they got legal permission they still didn't have the "moral" right to make all the filler, change things like Freeza killing Cargo and change the colors of the characters and their outfits. Do you see how utterly stupid that sounds!?

Your personal tastes are irrelevant.

I could make the same argument about your personal opinion. Just because you want to stick to the mediocre music placement for Kai for no other reason then "it's what Toei wants" doesn't mean we should have to put up with it for yet another version.

[penguintruth]

"Toei didn't make Dragon Ball, Toriyama did!" is an utterly baffling argument. Did Toriyama animate it? No. Toei did.

Ocean isn't dubbing the manga, they're dubbing a TV show that Toei made.

Your argument is completely ridiculous.

It's not the job of an overseas licensor or dub studio to "improve" an anime. And if you give them the power to do that, if you sit by and support that, it's what leads to terrible dubs and a disrespect for Japanese animation.

It is the responsibility of the licensor and/or dub studio to accurately depict the intentions of the studio who made the show. I don't care if the music causes internal bleeding. It's the music for the show. You do not touch it.

Liking it or disliking it is irrelevant.

[Ringworm128]

My argument is that if you're going to harp on Ocean for replacing music you might as well harp on Toei for doing things like not coloring Krillins eyes in or adding filler since they were supposed to be animating Akira Toriyama's manga not making it their own show. And plus Kai was supposed to have NEW music not rehashed music I really do not give a s..t that Toie got rid of Yamamotto. I want to watch the show with new music and just because you want to be some stupid purist doesn't mean we should have to.

[penguintruth]

Oh hey, you're right! Maybe Ocean will take out the scenes of Ginyu in Bulma's body.

In fact, there shouldn't be ANY music, because the manga didn't have any music!

[Ringworm128]

Well you enjoy that, now if you excuse me I'm of to listen to Rock the Dragon. And then some DBZK with Bruce Faulconer music.

[RazorX]

This is not a matter of taste. Yes, I do enjoy Shunsuke Kikuchi and Kenji Yamamoto's work and I even think the placement of Kikuchi's music in Kai is fine. But that's not the crux of the matter.

If Toei decides to suddenly change the music for Kai to polka music, it doesn't matter whether I like it or not, it's their show, they made it, their decision stands as law. Now, you can always say you don't like the Kikuchi music in Kai, and that's fine. But since Toei decided to replace Yamamoto's music with it, it became the Kai music. Whatever music Toei decides to use becomes the music of Kai, regardless of whether you or I like it.

I don't know how I can explain this any simpler. Your personal tastes are irrelevant.

Law? Since when has whatever Toei decided to do become law?

What you don't seem to understand is that you're taking a very narrow minded view on the matter. I mentioned the point that we as consumers don't have to accept whatever the producers give with a closed mind and elaborated on it. You're repeating one liner statements without elaborating on why we should sit back and accept whatever crap Toei decides to give us.

Personally, I don't accept it. I've purchased the Yamamoto scored Kai episodes 1-52 from Funimation and 'obtained' the Japanese fansubs of Yamamoto scored episodes 53-95. I can add my custom Yamamoto music to episodes 96-98. I'm not accepting Kikuchi and I don't see why anyone else who feels the same way should accept it either. The Kikuchi Kai score is so repetitive and misplaced it's irritating. Yes some scenes are scored well with Kikuchi but a lot aren't. It's a rushed, unprofessional placement. Kai deserves to be treated with more respect.

You need to understand that we watch Dragon Ball Kai because we enjoy it, if the music sucks a lot of enjoyment out, the question is, why should we accept said music if we don't have to? WE shouldn't and we don't. There's a limit to 'keeping with the original music' and you've crossed it.

I mean, there are some anime I dislike the soundtrack for, but I don't go demanding they change it for the English dub. What you want is exactly what Funimation did when they put Bruce Faulconer's music in, disregard the intent of the studio who made it. Now, yes, the original intent was for Kai to have the Yamamoto music, but that intent changed after kicking his music out. It's their call. You can argue all you want about how a licensor/dub studio is probably granted the legal right by Toei to change the music, and therefore it should be okay, but it simply isn't a representation of the Japanese version of the show. And in my opinion, an English dub of an anime should largely reflect the Japanese version.

Nobody's forcing you to LIKE the Kikuchi music in Kai, but that's the music Toei used to replace Yamamoto's.

You gotta deal with it!

No we don't have to deal with it. I certainly don't as I outlined above and others don't either. If you want to deal with Kikuchi in Kai, it's your choice.

The intent of Toei with Kai was to modernise the Dragon Ball series, they may have thrown in old music but that doesn't mean their intent has suddenly changed, especially when they were so far into the series, so your argument against intent is flat.

It's interesting how the people who care more for the Ocean dub want the music replaced. It's ok for you who probably wont watch the Ocean dub as much but for someone like me, the Ocean dub would be the primary version for everyday viewing, and the Kikuchi music is going to let it down. I want to be able to enjoy the music and the voices as well as the show itself, so I am calling for a replacement of the music because Kikuchi is a letdown and we shouldn't be subjected to it because of the ridiculous reason that the producers put it in, especially when it's not even their intent.

Kai is supposed to be the modern version of DBZ, if Ocean use Kikuchi, their dub of DBZ would be more modern than their dub of Kai, because they used modern music for their DBZ dub.

Ocean isn't dubbing the manga, they're dubbing a TV show that Toei made.

Your argument is completely ridiculous.

It's not the job of an overseas licensor or dub studio to "improve" an anime. And if you give them the power to do that, if you sit by and support that, it's what leads to terrible dubs and a disrespect for Japanese animation.

You call that a disrespected of Japanese animation when it isn't. But what about the disrespect Toei has shown the fans, Toriyama, Kikuchi, Yamamoto and all those involved in the production of Yamamoto music (it wasn't just Yamamoto) by the unprofessional placement which sometimes makes Kikuchi's music come across as a joke? That is disrespect.

Liking it or disliking it is irrelevant.

No, it's very relevant. If we don't like it, we should rightfully call for dubbing studios to change it. I still say that it replacing the music shoulkd've been made compulsory for all overseas dubbing studios. But Toei is too damn greedy to enforce such a provision, they want the music royalties.