Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Robo4900 » Tue May 03, 2022 5:45 pm

It's worth noting that even today the English dubs of the Pokémon anime replace the music, simply because the Japanese studios charge a fortune for the music licensing.

Apparently there was a brief time a few years ago when the original score was kept in the English versions of Pokémon because the prices went down a little, but then the licensing changed and whoever it changed to brought the prices so far up, it once again became so much more economical for them to just produce their own score.

It's also true that even though Ocean altered the OP/ED for GT and completely replaced it for DB, their scripts were generally of a fairly good standard, (GT especially so); the one caveat is that the first half of DB was adapted from Funi's scripts, so they're better than Funi's in general but not as good as their work on GT or the Pioneer movies, however the later parts of DB are of the standard you'd expect from Ocean's scripting, as I recall.

And we do know from what's been said about this dub in general that there was an attitude from the producers of being fairly faithful to the original Japanese show, so I wouldn't let the music put you off the impression that it will be a fairly faithful dub.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by 2quid » Tue May 03, 2022 5:54 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 5:45 pm Apparently there was a brief time a few years ago when the original score was kept in the English versions of Pokémon because the prices went down a little, but then the licensing changed and whoever it changed to brought the prices so far up, it once again became so much more economical for them to just produce their own score.
The 4kids dub kept a lot of the original music, along with their own score, and I think it was more to do with the fact that they could afford it towards the end of their run with pokemon rather than anything else. Regardless of what the censorship was like they did care about the quality of their products for the most part, particularly pokemon, and the 4kids replacement score was not terrible. The same is true for a lot of their products. Kinda weird the anime's dubbing is now done by the Pokemon Company itself and is constantly hitting new lows with regards to the music.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue May 03, 2022 6:13 pm

Damn, always behind! lol I once doubted that was the legit Kai opening and it was widely believed that it was. And more, it's exactly the reverse. Well, I'm glad that isn't it! Not that I think it'll matter... 😔

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by WittyUsername » Tue May 03, 2022 11:40 pm

The download doesn’t seem to be working for me.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 04, 2022 5:19 am

2quid wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 5:54 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 5:45 pm Apparently there was a brief time a few years ago when the original score was kept in the English versions of Pokémon because the prices went down a little, but then the licensing changed and whoever it changed to brought the prices so far up, it once again became so much more economical for them to just produce their own score.
The 4kids dub kept a lot of the original music, along with their own score, and I think it was more to do with the fact that they could afford it towards the end of their run with pokemon rather than anything else. Regardless of what the censorship was like they did care about the quality of their products for the most part, particularly pokemon, and the 4kids replacement score was not terrible. The same is true for a lot of their products. Kinda weird the anime's dubbing is now done by the Pokemon Company itself and is constantly hitting new lows with regards to the music.
I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that 4Kids phasing out the Japanese music for their own original music had more to do with the royalties they got from their own score. At any rate even from day 1 only about half the Japanese music was retained and the theatrical movies completely replaced the music but around the time the movies started going direct to dvd they would keep all the Japanese music (at a time the tv series dub was barely using the Japanese music)

Worth noting the dub of the CGI Mewtwo Strikes Back remake keeps all the Japanese music except for the opening theme where it uses a remake of the original American theme which could be chalked up to nostalgia except even the Japanese audio switches to the American theme..so there probably is some licensing issues there where TPCI couldn't afford Mezase Pokemon Master

Who knows why Ocean replaced the score. They had no qualms keeping GT's score back when Funimation was gung ho on replacing it for their own dub. Maybe someone recognized the Yamamoto score was a bit too..familiar sounding and wanted to avoid that mess.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed May 04, 2022 5:49 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:19 amAt any rate even from day 1 only about half the Japanese music was retained and the theatrical movies completely replaced the music but around the time the movies started going direct to dvd they would keep all the Japanese music (at a time the tv series dub was barely using the Japanese music)
I just watched a subbed episode of Pokemon for the first time quite recently, granted it was the banned Porygon episode, which we have never seen an English dub of,
although allegedly one does exist, but I was surprised at how much of the score I remembered from the 4Kids dub.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:19 am Who knows why Ocean replaced the score. They had no qualms keeping GT's score back when Funimation was gung ho on replacing it for their own dub. Maybe someone recognized the Yamamoto score was a bit too..familiar sounding and wanted to avoid that mess.
It's possible like with Z, Funimation may have not provided Ocean with masters containing the Japanese score, although when Z was airing Funimation had their own reasons for sending the Faulconer Productions score, like having Ocean pay extra royalties to them, with Kai this obviously wouldn't have been the case.

In theory Ocean could have licensed the Yamamoto score from TOEI themselves independent of Funimation, but maybe they thought because Kai was inherently a tampered version of Z already that by replacing the score they were no more innocent than TOEI was (let's not forget TOEI threw out the audio masters and originally intended for Kai to be THE HD version of Z, not an alternate way of watching, so it's not like they showed care for the show they created between 1989 and 1995).

I do think it's possible someone at Ocean (perhaps even a music buff) had the foresight to realize Yamamoto's score would be problematic. If they did that's a credit to them, as it would have taken great initiative, and hopefully whenever this dub is released we get a satisfying alternative to both Yamamoto and the misplaced Kikuchi score as a result.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Robo4900 » Wed May 04, 2022 6:49 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:49 am It's possible like with Z, Funimation may have not provided Ocean with masters containing the Japanese score, although when Z was airing Funimation had their own reasons for sending the Faulconer Productions score, like having Ocean pay extra royalties to them, with Kai this obviously wouldn't have been the case.
I don't think Ocean got their production materials from Funi for Kai. At least, we don't have enough information to make this assumption.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by NitroEX » Wed May 04, 2022 7:51 am

The Nicktoons version of Kai 1.0 did have Ocean credited for video editing and production so it's reasonable to assume they were sharing materials for that at least. Whether they copied and pasted that same footage for their own dub is unclear but it's very likely given it's only for broadcast and not home video.

I actually hadn't considered the idea of Funimation withholding the Kai/Yamamoto soundtrack from Ocean. It would help explain the need for a new soundtrack beyond simple creative direction but I'm not sure how they would have been able to enforce that since it was not theirs.

I still suspect it might've been more of a financial decision to lose the original music. Either so they could earn some royalties using their own soundtrack or perhaps the license cost too much to bother using Yamamoto's.

I personally don't believe it was because anybody caught the plagiarism early. It wasn't that obvious to people who weren't hardcore fans, not to mention it would not have gone over well with Toei to preemptively make that accusation and remove their music on just a gut feeling. That's not something that would realistically happen.

The decision to have replacement music would have been made very early into production too if Ocean's singer on the demo track is to be believed, and the firing of Yamamoto and Toei's statements didn't happen until 2011 which is after the production of this dub had started. If Funimation didn't have any worries about the Japanese soundtrack before entering production then I doubt Ocean would have either. It was probably motivated by something else.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 04, 2022 8:34 am

NitroEX wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:51 am The Nicktoons version of Kai 1.0 did have Ocean credited for video editing and production so it's reasonable to assume they were sharing materials for that at least. Whether they copied and pasted that same footage for their own dub is unclear but it's very likely given it's only for broadcast and not home video.

Would seem weird to go through the effort of doing the visuals edits for Funimation to use for their edited dub and then completely redoing them their own dub. Its almost a 100 percent guarantee that the edited video Ocean provided to Funimation for Nicktoons was one and the same with what they were going to use for their own.
I actually hadn't considered the idea of Funimation withholding the Kai/Yamamoto soundtrack from Ocean. It would help explain the need for a new soundtrack beyond simple creative direction but I'm not sure how they would have been able to enforce that since it was not theirs.
It's also incredibly unlikely. Why would Funimation do that? Clearly Funimation and Ocean have some working relationship. So the idea that Funimation would withhold the Japanese score out of some grade school level pettiness to make Ocean's job harder, especially when Ocean did the editing for them for the Nicktoons broadcast, seems like a silly accusation to be honest.
I still suspect it might've been more of a financial decision to lose the original music. Either so they could earn some royalties using their own soundtrack or perhaps the license cost too much to bother using Yamamoto's.

If it was a financial decision its most definitely in the "We can make royalties off our own score" variety. I have no clue how the Yamamoto score would be too expensive for them but they had no issue with the Kikuchi and Tokunaga scores for their budget dubs of Dragon Ball and GT.

I personally don't believe it was because anybody caught the plagiarism early. It wasn't that obvious to people who weren't hardcore fans, not to mention it would not have gone over well with Toei to preemptively make that accusation and remove their music on just a gut feeling. That's not something that would realistically happen.

The decision to have replacement music would have been made very early into production too if Ocean's singer on the demo track is to be believed, and the firing of Yamamoto and Toei's statements didn't happen until 2011 which is after the production of this dub had started. If Funimation didn't have any worries about the Japanese soundtrack before entering production then I doubt Ocean would have either. It was probably motivated by something else.
The Yamamoto score "borrowed" music from then recently released major blockbusters Avatar and Terminator Salvation its not unreasonable someone at Ocean took notice and rather than make accusations at Toei simply elected for a replacement score. I would buy that before buying "We could afford the Japanese music in our super cheap dub of GT but not for Kai" or "Funimation said nyah nyah we're not giving you the Japanese score make your own music LOSERS btw thanks for the edits bitches."


But in all honestly Ocean just wanted to make money off their own score was probably the most likely scenario out of all of them.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by NitroEX » Wed May 04, 2022 3:54 pm

It's also incredibly unlikely. Why would Funimation do that? Clearly Funimation and Ocean have some working relationship. So the idea that Funimation would withhold the Japanese score out of some grade school level pettiness to make Ocean's job harder, especially when Ocean did the editing for them for the Nicktoons broadcast, seems like a silly accusation to be honest.
I didn't imply any pettiness. Like I said, I have my own ideas about the music (which we seem to mostly agree on anyway) but I'm not above considering a different scenario where they weren't legally able to use the original music since we ultimately don't know the details. It wouldn't have to be Funimation withholding music for petty reasons if a contract between the two companies had already stated that Kai's music was off-limits to be used in any North American dub than a Funimation production. Hypothetically, I suppose it's possible they could have got around that by asking Toei for the music instead but that's kind of the point, we don't really know how many restrictions (if any) were placed on Ocean's dub this time around.
I have no clue how the Yamamoto score would be too expensive for them but they had no issue with the Kikuchi and Tokunaga scores for their budget dubs of Dragon Ball and GT.
They're all Toei soundtracks but I'm not going to assume they cost the same for Ocean to use, particularly because Kai was treated as a brand new product at the time and it's pretty obvious AB had been providing materials to them at the time of the Blue Water dubs, I have no idea how the licensing would've been affected by that. Toei also wasn't as involved in foreign dubbing back then as they were during the 2010s so there are clearly more than a few factors that make Kai unique compared to their previous DB dubs.
The Yamamoto score "borrowed" music from then recently released major blockbusters Avatar and Terminator Salvation its not unreasonable someone at Ocean took notice and rather than make accusations at Toei simply elected for a replacement score.
You're free to believe whatever speculation you want but I don't see that being a realistic action they would make, nor do I think the similarities to a movie score would immediately be apparent to someone who wasn't aware or already looking for them. If they were made aware of the plagiarism it's far more likely it happened through communication with Funimation at the time or from reading Toei's 2011 statement in the news. These would've been people who worked on multiple projects other than Dragon Ball Kai, the Japanese music would not have been something they obsessed over like fans on this forum do.
I would buy that before buying "We could afford the Japanese music in our super cheap dub of GT but not for Kai" or "Funimation said nyah nyah we're not giving you the Japanese score make your own music LOSERS btw thanks for the edits bitches."
They were planning to use Vancouver actors for GT before union restrictions persuaded Ken Morrison to move recording to Calgary so I don't think "super cheap dub" was their goal for GT (even if it ended up seeming that way).

As for the other stuff, that's all you. I wasn't implying that.
But in all honestly Ocean just wanted to make money off their own score was probably the most likely scenario out of all of them.
That I agree with. The only doubt I have is the fact that Ocean wasn't sublicensing their Kai soundtrack for other regions to use so it seems much less profitable for them to even bother with it compared to what Saban, 4Kids and TPCi were doing with their shows. But who knows, perhaps the perceived revenue from a YTV and/or UK broadcast was seen as enough when they planned for it.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed May 04, 2022 4:45 pm

It's worth noting, even if there was no unintened pettiness on Funimation's part they are not above neglecting Canada. Part of the reason the Westwood dub started when it did in Canada is because Funimation didn't send YTV the last 12 episodes of Z season 4, even though YTV had already purchased them. It was at that point YTV had enough and never looked back, as it wasn't the first time they received materials late. Canada was always an afterthought for Funimation, and they could have easily not sent Yamamoto's score out of negligence.
NitroEX wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:54 pmThe only doubt I have is the fact that Ocean wasn't sublicensing their Kai soundtrack for other regions to use so it seems much less profitable for them to even bother with it compared to what Saban, 4Kids and TPCi were doing with their shows. But who knows, perhaps the perceived revenue from a YTV and/or UK broadcast was seen as enough when they planned for it.
The Anitunes team's score is reused in various shows Ocean has dubbed. As Super Saiyan Prime has suggested LBX, Scan2Go, Deltora Quest may contain some tracks used in Kai because these shows have used music from previously released shows, so why wouldn't they also reuse (or perhaps repurpose) songs from an unreleased product? It's an easy way for Ocean to receive royalties for shows they worked on airing because all these tracks become library music they can freely use.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri May 13, 2022 7:43 am

Just an update for all as I've been discussing new opportunities for this dub to air, and have thrown in a suggestion of my own. The first is Pop, and the second is Irish broadcasting giant RTÉ. As we know Pop has rebranded from Kix, but that's not to say Ocean Kai is dead just because its not what the former channel aired. With regards to RTÉ having reached out to them I have some (hopefully) positive news.

For anyone unaware Pop is no longer owned by Sony, as they were sold to Narrative Entertainment last year - this company consists of people who were at CSC Media. Narrative can be reached at info@narrative.com, and for the team the Pop Max channel specifically is info@popfun.co.uk

Pop Max great bet for Ocean Kai as it is largely a dumping ground for old shows and older seasons of shows on Pop. Maybe also send them a tweet here.

The people at Pop Max are the same ones that were close to airing Ocean Kai in 2012 when it was being shopped around and referred to as the "UK dub" before Funimation pulled some strings to ensure only their dub aired.

In relation to RTÉ, having just received a reply from from the company in relation to Kai airing in Ireland on their channel RTÉ2 it seems that they are at least open to the idea. The person who responded to me said RTÉ confirmed they would "look at the show and will ascertain who has the rights, as very often content is not available to RTÉ as it has been licensed by a competitor, which is often a UK or Global player".

I have emailed this individual back with Ocean Studios and TOEI Europe's contact details, advising that if Kai airs in Ireland that he goes for the Ocean version as its never been released and would gain the attention of fans around the world due to how long its been anticipated.

So for anyone else that wants to suggest Kai for the channel, know that its worth a shot, they can be reached at info@rte.ie

So some new opportunities here, as long as we continue to express interest this dub it may see the light of day yet.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Kirbopher » Thu May 26, 2022 2:59 pm

Haven't checked on this thread in a few years, but I was reminded of this lost production this week and figured I'd check in. Very minor "whatever" type of update, but I did find out from a friend of mine who works with Terry Klassen recently that he was NOT brought back to voice Krillin. Not necessarily an indication that it would have been any of the Blue Water actors that played him instead, but it wasn't the original guy. Some minor new info for you guys.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu May 26, 2022 7:46 pm

Kirbopher wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:59 pm Haven't checked on this thread in a few years, but I was reminded of this lost production this week and figured I'd check in. Very minor "whatever" type of update, but I did find out from a friend of mine who works with Terry Klassen recently that he was NOT brought back to voice Krillin. Not necessarily an indication that it would have been any of the Blue Water actors that played him instead, but it wasn't the original guy. Some minor new info for you guys.
Yeah, Klassen himself confirmed this at the latest Kamehacon. Saffron Henderson also confirmed she did in fact return as Gohan.

....*Long sigh*........somewhere on a hard drive in Vancouver lies the most in-demand dub that will never be seen......
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri May 27, 2022 2:18 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:46 pm....*Long sigh*........somewhere on a hard drive in Vancouver lies the most in-demand dub that will never be seen......
It might never be seen, but we still don't know for sure. As I said above the Irish broadcasting giant I contacted wasn't against picking up Kai for air. As long as we continue to send those emails we keep those with the power at these networks reminded of said demand for this dub.

The emails for the UK and Irish broadcasters are:

info@narrative.com
info@popfun.co.uk
info@rte.ie

Also keep an eye on Toon-A-Vision because the channel was talking to Ken Morrison last December about Kai potentially airing on their channel, they can still be reached here for polite reminders we want this dub. The person I spoke to has since gone silent, which in this industry is a sign of cautious optimism.

Also worth noting, at long last Kai is finally being made available on streaming services, like HBO Max. That opens the possibility for other providers to hopefully be able to grab Ocean Kai. Keep in mind they're using the edited Nicktoons master for now, which we know, for almost a certainty is the Ocean dub of Kai's video source, so it would fit perfectly.

I'll never give up on this dub being seen. Far too much work went in to it for it to never leave the studio it was recorded in. Let's make it's release a reality.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Kirbopher » Sat May 28, 2022 1:48 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:46 pm
Kirbopher wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:59 pm Haven't checked on this thread in a few years, but I was reminded of this lost production this week and figured I'd check in. Very minor "whatever" type of update, but I did find out from a friend of mine who works with Terry Klassen recently that he was NOT brought back to voice Krillin. Not necessarily an indication that it would have been any of the Blue Water actors that played him instead, but it wasn't the original guy. Some minor new info for you guys.
Yeah, Klassen himself confirmed this at the latest Kamehacon. Saffron Henderson also confirmed she did in fact return as Gohan.

....*Long sigh*........somewhere on a hard drive in Vancouver lies the most in-demand dub that will never be seen......
Oh, that's great! I had a feeling she'd be back. Any other confirmations or de-confirmations from the con that weekend?

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat May 28, 2022 10:11 pm

Kirbopher wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 1:48 am
TheBlackPaladin wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:46 pm
Kirbopher wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:59 pm Haven't checked on this thread in a few years, but I was reminded of this lost production this week and figured I'd check in. Very minor "whatever" type of update, but I did find out from a friend of mine who works with Terry Klassen recently that he was NOT brought back to voice Krillin. Not necessarily an indication that it would have been any of the Blue Water actors that played him instead, but it wasn't the original guy. Some minor new info for you guys.
Yeah, Klassen himself confirmed this at the latest Kamehacon. Saffron Henderson also confirmed she did in fact return as Gohan.

....*Long sigh*........somewhere on a hard drive in Vancouver lies the most in-demand dub that will never be seen......
Oh, that's great! I had a feeling she'd be back. Any other confirmations or de-confirmations from the con that weekend?
According to AlexSketchy04, who went to the most recent Kamehacon and asked some of the attendees, this is what we now know...

AlexSketchy04 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:24 pm Ok, i just came back from Kamehacon, it was fun, and i got some interesting info.

Saffron Henderon told me that she did Gohan in the Ocean Dub of Kai.

Brian Dobson did not play Dr Gero, but he did participate in it in Minor Roles.

Alistair Bell however, mentioned something interesting, he said that the show was originally gonna be recorded in Vancouver, but was moved to Calgary, however, he later mentioned that it seems that he did participate in it.

I'm not sure if he was mixing up things, or that there's something we don't know, but that's all the info I got, I will ask Terry about it tomorrow

(Btw, the three of them were really nice, it was a great experience meeting not only them, but the other members of the Ocean / Funimation cast, along with the Latin American VA's)
So, there you have it. In this post, he mentioned that he would "ask Terry tomorrow" (meaning the next day of the con), and it was there that Terry Klassen himself confirmed that he did not come back as Krillin.

As far as Alistair Bell is concerned, my guess is that he was probably just confused regarding the dub's situation (and hey, can't say I blame him). As far as I know, we found out a while back that the dub was going to be a mix of both Vancouver and Calgary actors. In other words, I don't think the dub "moved" to Calgary in the sense of switching to an all-Calgary cast, just in the sense that it used Calgary actors alongside Vancouver actors.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Kirbopher » Mon May 30, 2022 2:55 pm

Did Alistair say if he was still Trunks or not?

You're correct, it was hey Vancouver/Calgary-based coproduction. And yeah, I'm not surprised by some of that lack of clarity. Not just from the fact that it was already so long ago, but to be honest, a lot of the Vancouver actors have inconsistently spotty memories about much of the work they do. They go in, do the gig, move on and forget it; other than the rare exception that has great recall.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by AlexSketchy04 » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:41 pm

Kirbopher wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:55 pm Did Alistair say if he was still Trunks or not?

You're correct, it was hey Vancouver/Calgary-based coproduction. And yeah, I'm not surprised by some of that lack of clarity. Not just from the fact that it was already so long ago, but to be honest, a lot of the Vancouver actors have inconsistently spotty memories about much of the work they do. They go in, do the gig, move on and forget it; other than the rare exception that has great recall.
He wasn't, he knew about the project, but all he knew and heard, the production moved to Calgary

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 11; Still Unreleased

Post by Kirbopher » Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:40 pm

If I had to guess, especially based on them picking Cole for #17, then it was probably Matthew Erickson reprising from the GT Blue Water cast. He was still pretty active during the years this would have been recorded, although it still just as easily could have been somebody else.

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