Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

[penguintruth]

A job's a job. Voice actors can't afford to be picky. It's not exactly a high paying field.

[TheBlackPaladin]

A job's a job. Voice actors can't afford to be picky. It's not exactly a high paying field.

Eh...yeah, that's true...for the most part. There are exceptions, though. I think a more accurate way to put it would be that voice actors can't afford to be too picky. Years before I became a voice actor, one of my mentors told me, "If you think it's difficult getting work, wait until you're faced with the dilemma of having to turn down work."

With non-union voice acting, there's been a lot of talk over the past few years over what constitutes a "fair" rate for different projects, and voice actors are strongly encouraged not to take jobs with rates that are too low for fear of setting an industry precedent that quality work can be achieved at dirt-cheap rates. I became a union voice actor (partially) because non-union voice acting was, in my humble opinion, racing to the bottom as far as rates were concerned. I've seen some absolutely absurd rates suggested on the non-union end of the industry, the most memorable of which was a client who only wanted to pay $5 for the narration of an entire medical journal. It's not particularly uncommon, of course, that many voice actors will still take the lower-paying work anyway because they've got bills to pay and families to feed, but they risk the scorn of other actors for contributing to the "race to the bottom" as far as rates are concerned. Not to mention the risk of eroding their own business when other clients start asking, "How come you charged a high rate for me, but a low rate for the other guy?"

So voice actors are encouraged to turn down work if it doesn't pay enough. Some do, some don't. It's for this reason that some of the original Japanese cast members didn't return, and why the majority of the original Latin Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese dub casts didn't return.

[RazorX]

on a personal level, the Kikuchi music is excellent and its placement problems in Kai has been massively exaggerated.

I've seen you praise the Kai replacement music in other threads and have been wanting to point this out before, it seems that despite your rant on replacement music, you seem content with it if you happen to like it, but you seem reluctant to admit that.

If Ocean wants to add their own music, they should make their own cartoon, not turn an existing one into theirs. They didn't make the show. If they can't sell it as it is, they shouldn't take on the project at all.

It doesn't work like that, especially when the music has already been replaced. If you want to rant against someone, rant against Toei for doing 2 things:

1. Replacing the music
2. Screwing up what it otherwise really good music in the process and somehow managing to make it seem dull and unfitting.

Interestingly it seems the dub will be a Calgary - Vancouver production.

That's not confirmed, and there's the logistics to consider, such as moving the Calgary actors to the Vancouver recording studios (I know they can record the lines in Calgary but I would think the voice director would want to direct them in person), but if that is the case, I would want the vast majority of actors from the Vancouver pool.

Calgary actors I'd want:

Dean Galloway as Master Roshi, Corby Proctor as Oolong, Zoe Slusar as Kid Goku and maybe Brendan Hunter as Tien, it's difficult to pick between him and Matt Smith.

The rest; Vancouver cast.

[Attitudefan]

I seem to always be ignored on this forum by everyone so I will reiterate: Brendan Hunter has confirmed the production is going on and confirmed who is playing Goku. He is not allowed to say anything more due to the NDA rigmarole; obviously he's in on the production as an actor. He could reprise his role a Ten.

[RazorX]

I seem to always be ignored on this forum by everyone so I will reiterate: Brendan Hunter has confirmed the production is going on and confirmed who is playing Goku. He is not allowed to say anything more due to the NDA rigmarole; obviously he's in on the production as an actor. He could reprise his role a Ten.

The voices in the clips on the video link you gave don't....seem as promising as I'd expect from the high standards I regard Ocean with, but I would imagine if it is one of them, the voice, and especially acting, would be different to what was displayed in the video.

As for Brendan not being able to talk about it, it's understandable but he has not said he's personally involved with the project. It's possible that actors don't want to talk about projects they are not involved with out of respect for their employers, and to not compromise their position for the future. Considering that Kai is among the biggest projects Ocean has ever undertaken and how strictly it is being kept a secret, I wouldn't be surprised if they asked actors who aren't involved with Kai to not talk about it.

Not saying he isn't involved with it though and if he reprises his role as Tien, I wouldn't mind as I think he did a really good job in Dragon Ball.

Still, it expands on something I mentioned earlier with regard to Trunks. Would they pick Matthew or Alistair to repise their role (or someone new) seen as Matthew (Blue Water) has also worked for Ocean in Vancouver.

Now if claims of co-production in Vancouver and Calgary are true, it opens up an exciting but dangerous opportunity. They'd be wise to retain most of their voices from Vancouver, especially Vegeta and King Kai, as the Vancouver cast are more popular and better suited for Dragon Ball Z.

[Attitudefan]

I agree. Not too promising from the link I showed here but it is something. I was hoping to get most of their original cast to reprise their roles instead of all the new actors we have been hearing about. We'll see.

[RazorX]

Indeed, I want most of Ocean's original DBZ cast back, which is why they need to retain most of their Vancouver Z cast, the cast is one of the biggest factors on what makes the Ocean dub the best dub.

To add to what I said in my previous post, I think a Blue Water dub of Kai would be good, better than the Funi dub of Kai, but it wont be good as an Ocean dub of Kai, because Blue Water does not have Scott McNeil, Brian Drummond, Don Brown, Laara Saadiq, Doc Harris, etc, the voice acting talents that helped make DBZ very enjoyable.

[penguintruth]

I think a Blue Water dub of Kai would be good, better than the Funi dub of Kai

What about Blue Water's past work gives you the impression that ANY dub by them would be better than Funi's Kai dub?

[RazorX]

Dragon Ball

I put Blue Water's dub of Dragon Ball a lot higher than Funi's dub. Funi's improved a lot since then, and I don't see why Blue Water wouldn'tve improved as well. If Blue Water have improved, along with the fact that I like the actual voices of the Blue Water cast more than Funi's, then I'd expect, taking improvements into consideration, the Blue Water dub to be better than Funi's dub.

Take 2 voices as an example, Master Roshi and Yamcha. Dean and Victor respectively were so much better than Mike and Chris, that the latter even in Kai cannot touch the former's performances in Dragon Ball.

It takes a few stars to alleviate an entire dub to a new level, in Blue Water's case, they had more stars in Dragon Ball than Dragon Ball GT.

By the way, you've (conveniently) ignored my comments on your stance on replacement music. You support replacement (or at least praise it) when it suits you, and when it doesn't (or you think it won't) you rant against it using the excuse that the "original music is what the producers intended" etc, which seems contradictory and/or hypocritical.

[penguintruth]

My experience with Blue Water dubs are mainly G Gundam and Zeta Gundam. G Gundam's dub can (maybe) be considered "so bad it's good" (though a lot of it is just plain bad), but Zeta Gundam's dub is just abominable, and it really miffed me because the show deserved better.

If Toei decides to use a certain music, then it becomes the intended music by the studio who produces the show.

Now, I happen to like both Kikuchi and Yamamoto, so that's a bonus. But if for some reason Toei chose to use a composer I disliked, I would just have to deal with it, because that's the show. I wouldn't demand replacement music from a dub studio, because it's really not their place.

Don't think I wouldn't hold myself to the same standard.

[Gonstead]

Take 2 voices as an example, Master Roshi and Yamcha.

If anything, Blue Water's Master Roshi is even more generic that Mike's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA0JOGhS3qc&feature=plcp

The voice and performance itself are easy enough that practically anyone can do it.

[penguintruth]

Wow, that Roshi is horrible.

In fact, the only character with a good voice in that scene is Lunch.

I hope whoever they get to be Roshi it isn't that guy OR Terry Klassen (his Roshi just sounds like Old Man Kuririn).

[Gonstead]

And then there's stuff like Gangsta Rabbit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sDmj0tQtag

[penguintruth]

That Yamucha would be pretty good if he could project better. I don't mind Goku or Bulma's voice. Oolong's voice is decent too. But I don't know, the acting comes off a little awkward.

[Gonstead]

I think the problem is because they're trying to act and sound like their Ocean counterparts to try and sound consistant between all three series.

Admittedly it's a better job than what Funimation originally did but still sounds awkward at times.

[elcrunkus]

how was the blue water dub of dragonball? how would you compare it to funimations dragonball dub? good or not as good?

[NitroEX]

I remember Blue water's Dragonball being quite enjoyable back when it was on TV. I enjoyed it more then GT looking back but perhaps that's because I had gotten used to their voices a little more since Dragonball was aired after GT. It could also just be the fact that they had improved since doing that dub.

On a separate note while that Yamcha is a good replacement it would be a crime for them not to bring Ted Cole back.

[RazorX]

My experience with Blue Water dubs are mainly G Gundam and Zeta Gundam. G Gundam's dub can (maybe) be considered "so bad it's good" (though a lot of it is just plain bad), but Zeta Gundam's dub is just abominable, and it really miffed me because the show deserved better.

I have not seen the Blue Water Gundam dubs (outside of some clips) so if they didn't do a very good job, it's unfortunate, but it doesn't reflect on their Dragon Ball dub, which is competent and enjoyable.

I remember that the BW Gundam dubs were brought up in the first Ocean Kai topic 2 years ago and someone stated that Blue Water did a better job with Dragon Ball than Gundam.

If Toei decides to use a certain music, then it becomes the intended music by the studio who produces the show.

Now, I happen to like both Kikuchi and Yamamoto, so that's a bonus. But if for some reason Toei chose to use a composer I disliked, I would just have to deal with it, because that's the show. I wouldn't demand replacement music from a dub studio, because it's really not their place.

Don't think I wouldn't hold myself to the same standard.

The idea of an original music is music which the producers intended to add as a component for the overall feel of the show. If the music is changed, no matter who does it, that changed music is not what the producers originally intended. Toei are the producers, but they probably didn't even dream in 2009 that they would use Kikuchi's music in Kai after contracting Yamamoto. The Kikuchi music is not what the producers intended, therefore it isn't very different than dubbing studios changing the music. It may actually be worse because if a dubbing studio changes the music, they'd at least give some thought on producing what they think would fit the show, rather than recklessly throw in "stock" music.

As an example, if Toei decided to use Yamamoto for the Saiyan saga and change it to Kikuchi for the Namek saga, then change it to Yamamoto for the Frieza saga, from the start, that would be what they intended and then your argument may hold some weight. As it stands, the main point is, the Kikuchi music is not the intended music for Kai and therefore it is replacement music not intended for the show.

If Toei hired someone you didn't like for the start, it's a different matter as that would be the intended music.

I'm going to give you a scenario and like latter word in your username I want you to answer this truthfully from your point of view.

Let's assume Ocean started to use the original Yamamoto music for their dub of Kai, but after the plagiarism scandel was unveiled and the Kikuchi music hurriedly scored, Ocean decide that since their dub has not started broadcast, they would replace the music themselves rather than use Kikuchi. And they decide to hire Hiroshi Takaki (Ultimate Tenkaichi cutscenes/Episode of Bardock Anime music) to compose the music for their dub.

Would you support such a move or be against it and call for Kikuchi?

If anything, Blue Water's Master Roshi is even more generic that Mike's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA0JOGhS3qc&feature=plcp

The voice and performance itself are easy enough that practically anyone can do it.

You can't judge an entire performance on a 2 and a half minute clip, there's no way you can get an accurate representation of Dean's Roshi from that clip or a handful of others.

Here's why I prefer Dean's Roshi over all the other English Roshis (including all of Ocean's Roshis)

Dean captures the essence of the character as set by the original Japanese VA, Kōhei Miyauchi. Dean has a remarkable ability to go from comically lecherous to seriously wise and authoritative in a second, if the scene demands it. His acting portrays a character who is wise, very knowledgeable, authoritative, and comical when the situation calls for it, all traits being portrayed naturally and believably.

As for the voice itself, it's not generic but it does sound natural. The problem with Corlett's Roshi, and this is carried over by McFarland, is that the voice is a stereotypically cartoony old man voice which lacks the authoritative measure that a voice like Dean's can provide.

After watching much of Dragon Ball in the Blue Water dub and original Japanese, the flaws of the Ocean and Funimation Roshis (except Klassan) become even more glaring. Dean's voice and acting is the closest to the original Japanese out of any English Roshis and because the original Japanese portrayal adds a lot of value to the series, that is a significant point.

Wow, that Roshi is horrible.

In fact, the only character with a good voice in that scene is Lunch.

I hope whoever they get to be Roshi it isn't that guy OR Terry Klassen (his Roshi just sounds like Old Man Kuririn).

See my post above, you can't judge an entire performance from a 2 and a half minute clip. Plus, it's a lot different from what you're probably used to for years from the alternate English dub, but that different is in a good way. However, when I heard Dean's Roshi for the first time in GT, I didn't think it was that good. I used to prefer Klassan's Roshi over Dean's, until I saw a lot of Blue Water Dragon Ball episodes.

Voice wise, Terry Klassan and Dean Galloway are the closest to Kōhei Miyauchi. I hope that Ocean can get Galloway or Klassan to voice Roshi in Kai, or if they get someone new, make sure that it builds on the precedent set by Klassan and Galloway. To go for a Corlett style Roshi is taking a step backwards, and that is not something I think is ideal.

However I have a feeling Ocean realise that, at least they did for the Westwood dub. Why do you think they recast Roshi when they had not one but two previous VAs for Roshi within their pool (Peter Kelamis and Don Brown) both of whom reprised their other roles? I'd say it's because Klassan gave a more accurate representation of Roshi. And, Klassan's Roshi doesn't sound anything like his Krillin, I didn't know that Klassan voiced Roshi until I read about it.

[penguintruth]

Really? Because it was obvious to me the first time I heard Klassen's Roshi that it was him. Nobody had to tell me. Klassen's voice is pretty recognizable. Whether it be Kuririn, the Mole Man (Escaflowne), or Hachi (Inu Yasha). I always know when it's him.

Let's assume Ocean started to use the original Yamamoto music for their dub of Kai, but after the plagiarism scandel was unveiled and the Kikuchi music hurriedly scored, Ocean decide that since their dub has not started broadcast, they would replace the music themselves rather than use Kikuchi. And they decide to hire Hiroshi Takaki (Ultimate Tenkaichi cutscenes/Episode of Bardock Anime music) to compose the music for their dub.

Would you support such a move or be against it and call for Kikuchi?

Using the Kikuchi score was Toei's decision. Toei made the show, it's their decision to make. So yes, I would call for Kikuchi. The English version of an anime should be an English version of the Japanese show, not it's own show. It's not Ocean's place to put their own music in, end of story. They could get John Williams and Danny Elfman to compose the replacement music and I still would not care, because Toei didn't hire them to do that.

If you think replacing Yamamoto's material with Kikuchi's was a mistake, fine, then it was a mistake, but it was Toei's mistake, and they have the right to. It just means they made a mistake. But it isn't the place of Ocean or any other dub studio to fix mistakes in a show. It's their job to provide an English version of the Japanese show. Period.

[Ringworm128]

Really? Because it was obvious to me the first time I heard Klassen's Roshi that it was him. Nobody had to tell me. Klassen's voice is pretty recognizable. Whether it be Kuririn, the Mole Man (Escaflowne), or Hachi (Inu Yasha). I always know when it's him.

Let's assume Ocean started to use the original Yamamoto music for their dub of Kai, but after the plagiarism scandel was unveiled and the Kikuchi music hurriedly scored, Ocean decide that since their dub has not started broadcast, they would replace the music themselves rather than use Kikuchi. And they decide to hire Hiroshi Takaki (Ultimate Tenkaichi cutscenes/Episode of Bardock Anime music) to compose the music for their dub.

Would you support such a move or be against it and call for Kikuchi?

Using the Kikuchi score was Toei's decision. Toei made the show, it's their decision to make. So yes, I would call for Kikuchi. The English version of an anime should be an English version of the Japanese show, not it's own show. It's not Ocean's place to put their own music in, end of story. They could get John Williams and Danny Elfman to compose the replacement music and I still would not care, because Toei didn't hire them to do that.

If you think replacing Yamamoto's material with Kikuchi's was a mistake, fine, then it was a mistake, but it was Toei's mistake, and they have the right to. It just means they made a mistake. But it isn't the place of Ocean or any other dub studio to fix mistakes in a show. It's their job to provide an English version of the Japanese show. Period.

Ocean owns the rights for the show in Canada they have every right to change the music. I seriously will never understand the whole "it's not the original, therefore it sucks" logic.