Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

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Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by PhoenixEX » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:59 pm

At first the concept of Kai seemed odd, tracing over old episodes instead or just animating a new series, but over time I got used to it. It became nice to randomly see the re-drawn short scenes...but it still felt awkward when the short scene would end and go back to the old, regular scene. Still, Kai was a treat. However, then the whole Yamamoto scandal happened and the music that they used (Kikuchi) to replace his score just didn't fit with what was supposed to be Kai, a fresh take on the classic Z series. The music seemed dated and to make things worse, the positioning of it was wrong a lot of the time because it just didn't match with what was happening (IMO at least). Finally, we have Buu Saga Kai. Granted, I've only seen a couple of episodes but I really did not like what I saw. There seems to be an odd tint problem there, as others have pointed out...and the music isn't very fitting either. It's rather slow and what I don't understand is why TOEI has to be SO inconsistent and release the Bluray sets in 16:9. That only makes me think that FUNi will most likely end up doing the same when they release Buu Saga Kai in the states. I mean, we already have inconsistent music placement with 4:3 framing, and now while the music may be totally different for Buu Saga Kai, it'll be in 16:9.
Do you guys think that TOEI will eventually go back and insert the newer soundtrack to episodes 1-98 and re-release those sets in 16:9 so that FUNi could maybe follow suit? And if not, could FUNi do it? DB Kai in my opinion seems like a failure for the most part.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai--What Went Wrong?

Post by B » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:17 pm

Yamamoto got caught is what went wrong.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai--What Went Wrong?

Post by Gonstead » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:30 pm

B wrote:Yamamoto got caught is what went wrong.
Not to mention the earthquake as well, which was really terrible.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai--What Went Wrong?

Post by Valerius Dover » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:57 pm

PhoenixEX wrote: Do you guys think that TOEI will eventually go back and insert the newer soundtrack to episodes 1-98 and re-release those sets in 16:9 so that FUNi could maybe follow suit? And if not, could FUNi do it? DB Kai in my opinion seems like a failure for the most part.
There's no reason for Toei to go back and replace the music again. They've already lost enough time and money cleaning up after Yamamoto. The Kikuchi tracks are there to stay. As for the Buu arc of Kai, nobody knows how it's going to turn out, seeing as how they're giving us a very different (or rather the intended) version.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai--What Went Wrong?

Post by Chuquita » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:58 pm

They shot themselves in the foot by attempting to do a "refreshed" version of Z on the cheap. If you're going to do something like a "new version", don't only put in half the effort or else you'll end up wasting resources you could've used to make your product better to instead fix your own mistakes.

I do think they learned their lesson, hence "Sailor Moon Crystal", which is not only from the ground up (like FMA: Brotherhood) but also is going for a quality over quantity (at least, it looks that way atm). Sure you only get a new episode every two weeks, but if it means it gives them more time to make the show look the best it can, then I don't mind waiting.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai--What Went Wrong?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:16 pm

Honestly, I always viewed Kai as a rather pointless effort altogether on Toei's part.

In the interest of even more blunt honesty, I was surprised that people were even excited about it to begin with. I'm not blaming anybody for having a positive opinion or being excited about, I was just surprised that people were excited about it. I could never perceive it as something new. It struck me from the get-go as an excuse to make an old hit show "new," in an attempt to make some money, and an indication of how little Toei had to offer the Dragon Ball franchise in the way of original ideas.

So, what went wrong? If you ask me, what went wrong is that it was made at all. They should have gone for a new series, and put some money behind it.

With all that said, I don't hate Kai. However, my interest in it is limited almost exclusively to the new dub, which I absolutely love. For me, that alone has made Kai worth it. Were it not for the new dub, though, I'd have almost zero interest in Kai.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai--What Went Wrong?

Post by NessMudkip » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:51 pm

Steering clear of the very tempting "fucking everything" response, I feel that although there are many, many problems with Kai, the root lies in the fact that it wasn't re-animated. However, here is each reason Kai failed for me personally:

1. It didn't start at the beginning

The concept of a new version of the show which follows the manga perfectly doesn't make a whole lot of sense when a good chunk of the series is missing.

2. It wasn't re-animated

This is my biggest gripe, as not only is it lazy, it causes further problems down the line. If the show was re-animated we would not be worrying about aspect ratios. We would not be worrying about those awkward redrawn scenes made to look old. We would not be worrying about filler possibly being kept in.

3. All the shit with the music

The Yamamoto soundtrack was fantastic, but the scandal of course lead to the, although also wonderful, Kikuchi score being placed haphazardly in the first half of the series as quickly as possible, often in places which didn't work properly. Of course we then have the new Buu arc having music re-used from Battle of Gods, and generally feeling sloppy all-round.

4.Video issues

While the first half part doesn't look too bad, aside from those horrid re-animated scenes which stick out like a sore thumb, we hit problems in the Buu arc. The Buu arc, at this time, and by the looks of things, will forever be, only available in 16:9, while the rest of the series is in the correct 4:3 aspect ratio. It also has that horrible green tint on it. Again, if the show was re-animated, we would not be having this problem.

While Kai did give us a few good things, such as a good dub, a renewed interest in the series in the west, and filler-free versions of the Z arcs, It's very much clear to me that Kai is a quick cash grab by Toei, which is a real shame considering they are now restarting Sailor Moon from scratch. I hope that at some point in the future, they will do the same for Dragon Ball. The Dragon Ball series is still very much in need of a remake, and Kai didn't cut the mustard.

Or, even better, just let someone like Madhouse have Dragon Ball. Lol okay, that one isn't happening.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai--What Went Wrong?

Post by Akumaito Beam » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:09 am

I don't know what they thought was going to happen when they took the original anime people knew and loved for years and decided to make it into Frankenstein's Monster. Of course a massive amount of people were going to have a visceral negative knee jerk reaction to it. They butchered the footage up haphazardly, I still don't know what on Earth they were doing with that random interspersing of redrawn MS Paint bullshit, they added new music and voices. I'd be hard pressed to find a fandom that wouldn't pitch a fit.

The thing is they did all of this stuff so poorly. It was created to be a slap dash hack-job and that's exactly what it was. I guess they were banking on new fans not having any nostalgia for the old material and the Boo arc is currently airing on TV so I guess it worked.

For the record I prefer it over the original anime by far. Between the two I'll pick Kai any day of the week and I still think it's pretty awful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:50 am

As others have said, it was pretty much a flawed idea from the very beginning. A flawed idea that has had it's merits, such as a new and better dub, and yes, giving us shorter pacing, but still one that's issues almost outweigh it's benefits. And I can't help but feel that a good chunk of these issues could have been avoided if Toei had just ponied up more cash for a real re-make of the series to begin with.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:27 am

What kai did wrong :

1- Starting from the second half and ignoring the first half
2- Re-animating scenes
3- Evrything with the music

What kai did right :

1- Getting rid of the filler and having it follow the manga more closely
2- Giving us a better dub that's more accurate to both the manga and the japanese dub
3- Having it be in the original 4:3 aspect ratio
4- Making the original video look even better in HD

This is based on the first 3 arcs,And the reason i'm not talikng about the Buu arc is because the one we'r seeing is a rushed version to hold a time slot and not the one they took thire time with so i'll hold judgment on it until i see it from funimation
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by Fizzer » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:54 am

1. Starting half-way through the series.
2. Not even going all the way to the end of the series.
3. Yamamoto getting caught before the series was finished and home-released. (WHY, GOD, WHY?!)
4. Not having much money put into it, so not being reanimated properly. This is kind of a minor issue for me, compared to the other three.

So basically, I would love Kai if it covered all 42 volumes in its first run and had Yamamoto throughout the home-release. As it stands, overall, it's utter crap.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by EXBadguy » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:19 am

1- It didn't start at Dragon Ball(though I'm not that annoyed with it cuz I like Z more the DB)

2- Yamamoto kicked out.

That's all I have to say, other than that, I love Kai to the point that I think it killed the original Z. It erased all the fillers, it's more clean, and that's all that matters. And seriously, I sometimes wish people would stop worrying about Sailor Moon Crystal, like I understand that it's more "refreshed", but oh well, move on.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by Valerius Dover » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:31 am

Having not seen it yet, I can't judge it completely. But I can say this.

They skipped over the original series, and yet they still had the balls (lol) to call it Dragon Ball Kai? That name implies it's a remake of the franchise as a whole or the original series only. But it's neither of those. It only covers Z. That's why I strongly prefer the International name "Dragon Ball Z Kai".

Then again, even Toei has had a tendency to do "Z first original second". But, I really doubt they're going to do a Kai of the original series, considering they just want to get the Buu arc over with. And it wasn't as popular internationally.

Or, Pilaf's appearance in Movie 14 may revive interest in the series.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by ParkerAL » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:54 am

With all that said, I don't hate Kai. However, my interest in it is limited almost exclusively to the new dub, which I absolutely love. For me, that alone has made Kai worth it. Were it not for the new dub, though, I'd have almost zero interest in Kai.
My opinion is basically this. I have no idea how the Japanese could ever muster a tenth of excitement for Kai, seeing as they already have a quality dub for the original.

I'm a bit mixed on whether I would have wanted Toei to re-animate Kai. What they did screamed laziness, but I also prefer the look of their older Dragon Ball animation over most of their recent work on the series. Stuff like Episode of Bardock and Battle of Gods looks far too glossy for my taste.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by JackyBoi99 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:41 am

What went wrong in english speaking countries, is that dub fans weren't willing to give up their original cast and Faulconer.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by Valerius Dover » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:14 am

JackyBoi99 wrote:What went wrong in english speaking countries, is that dub fans weren't willing to give up their original cast and Faulconer.
Honestly, these people give us a bad name. They've always complained "Where's Faulconer"? Well, TEAM Faulconer didn't even score the first 67 episodes of Z, and barely had any involvment in Movies or Specials either. And yet they still expected them back for GT. And then they expected them back for Kai for some reason. And now some people have even been expecting them back for Movie 14, despite them hardly doing anything aside from Movies 4 and 8 (a little bit), and Funi not replacing soundtracks, anymore. Believe me, the work they did was awesome, but it's a product of it's time. They should be glad they're at least including it in re-releases.

As for the original cast, cast changes happen. These nostalgia driven fans are always going to complain about SOMETHING that's different. Honestly, they should just re-watch their version instead of bothering everybody else about how they hate the new one.

My interest in Kai is limited to the new English dub and the new score for the Buu arc. (Also, new theme songs for entire series).
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:43 am

JackyBoi99 wrote:What went wrong in english speaking countries, is that dub fans weren't willing to give up their original cast and Faulconer.
Uh, how exactly does that have any impact on the poor way Kai has turned out in Japan, and therefore here as well? No offense, but this just sounds like complaining about the dub fanbase for the sake of complaining about the dub fanbase.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:44 am

I'm pretty sure Morishita Kouzou approving "we'll remake Dragon Ball Z for even less money per episode than we did twenty years ago!" was where everything went to Hell in a hand basket.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by MagicBox » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:18 am

I'm curious what people mean when they list "Yamamoto being fired" as one of their reasons. Like, are you upset because the guy got caught, or are you upset because it resulted in the last minute music replacements? I'm not at all upset that Yamamoto got caught. He stole and he got what he deserved. I'll admit that I find that easier to say because I was never a fan of his video game compositions in the first place (though he's a damn good arranger). I'm glad we have the Kikuchi audio. If they had actually acquired the rights to a bigger library of his music and placed it more properly, I would have loved to have Kikuchi from the very beginning.

But aside from the obvious stuff (the lack of budget or respect for the material, as well as the greedy, lazy reason the series was given the green-light in the first place), I'd have to agree that it was a huge mistake to start with Raditz. Yeah, I get it, the show came out on Z's 20th anniversary, but that would have been the perfect opportunity to make the kid Goku stuff relevant again. Hell, it would have given people a chance to see what actually happens during the kid Goku stuff (you'd be surprised how many people only watch Z).
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai - What Went Wrong?

Post by Valerius Dover » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:07 pm

MagicBox wrote:
But aside from the obvious stuff (the lack of budget or respect for the material, as well as the greedy, lazy reason the series was given the green-light in the first place), I'd have to agree that it was a huge mistake to start with Raditz. Yeah, I get it, the show came out on Z's 20th anniversary, but that would have been the perfect opportunity to make the kid Goku stuff relevant again. Hell, it would have given people a chance to see what actually happens during the kid Goku stuff (you'd be surprised how many people only watch Z).
Honestly, this is one of my only problems with it. I only got into Dragon Ball in 2012, and I made the decision to see Dragon Ball first. So many people skip the first series for such stupid reasons. My best friend is just getting into Dragon Ball, and I managed to quickly talk him into seeing DB first. It's like skipping A New Hope and going straight to The Empire Strikes Back. That's actually what I said. :D

I had hopes they would do it after the Buu arc, but considering they just want to get THAT over with as fast as possible, I really doubt it. I would like to see Kai cover the original series for several reasons.

1. New English Dub
2. New Music (Most of DB has never been rescored before)
3. Having a full manga edition and a full anime edition
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