Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by DBZ_Lee » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:00 pm

kei17 wrote:The green tint is lessned in these French shots because they're from a crappy reddish source captured with an analog device, which is shared on some French pirating websites.
Drat. I had a feeling it was too good to be true, apologies to anyone misled by the information I posted.
At the very least, the 4:3 is a good thing for FUNI's eventual release. (assuming they want it 4:3, to match the 1st Series)

The tint doesn't bother me as much as the awful cropping does.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:03 pm

Here's an interesting question, though--if FUNimation went ahead and "fixed" the green tint and the aspect ratio, isn't that setting a precedent that fans are theoretically OK with them altering the footage from the way it was originally provided to them by Toei?

One of the biggest reasons for the uproar about the orange bricks was because FUNimation made their own decisions about how the show should look, and called it, "the way it was meant to be seen," and fans argued back that, since they didn't make the show, they didn't (or, if nothing else, shouldn't) have the right to make that call. Fans (or at least fans of the typical Kanzenshuu mindset) said they should only present the show as Toei provided it.

Well, a green tint with a 16:9 aspect ratio is now officially how Toei provided it.

So if FUNimation is urged to change it, it may set an unwelcome precedent that they are allowed to do that in the future, when we may not want them to. I would want them to in this specific case, but what's worse? FUNimation fixing it and setting a precedent that they are allowed to alter the show's footage, or keeping the footage as it is, flaws included, and honoring the materials as they were received from the original animation company?
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by DBZ_Lee » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:19 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:Here's an interesting question, though--if FUNimation went ahead and "fixed" the green tint and the aspect ratio, isn't that setting a precedent that fans are theoretically OK with them altering the footage from the way it was originally provided to them by Toei?

One of the biggest reasons for the uproar about the orange bricks was because FUNimation made their own decisions about how the show should look, and called it, "the way it was meant to be seen," and fans argued back that, since they didn't make the show, they didn't (or, if nothing else, shouldn't) have the right to make that call. Fans (or at least fans of the typical Kanzenshuu mindset) said they should only present the show as Toei provided it.

Well, a green tint with a 16:9 aspect ratio is now officially how Toei provided it.

So if FUNimation is urged to change it, it may set an unwelcome precedent that they are allowed to do that in the future, when we may not want them to. I would want them to in this specific case, but what's worse? FUNimation fixing it and setting a precedent that they are allowed to alter the show's footage, or keeping the footage as it is, flaws included, and honoring the materials as they were received from the original animation company?
I totally agree with you, it's a tricky situation and I don't know what they'll do.

As for my personal tastes, I'd be content with them fixing the cropping errors, and leave the rest as is. As bad as the music placement has been at times, it hasn't been excruciating enough to make me stop watching.
The tint hasn't bothered me either, but I am disappointed that we won't have all of the color corrections Japan has had - Super Buus' eyes isn't a huge deal, but because I know they fixed it for their version, the way I see it, they should do the same for ours, too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by Metalwario64 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:32 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:One of the biggest reasons for the uproar about the orange bricks was because FUNimation made their own decisions about how the show should look, and called it, "the way it was meant to be seen," and fans argued back that, since they didn't make the show, they didn't (or, if nothing else, shouldn't) have the right to make that call. Fans (or at least fans of the typical Kanzenshuu mindset) said they should only present the show as Toei provided it.

Well, a green tint with a 16:9 aspect ratio is now officially how Toei provided it.

So if FUNimation is urged to change it, it may set an unwelcome precedent that they are allowed to do that in the future, when we may not want them to. I would want them to in this specific case, but what's worse? FUNimation fixing it and setting a precedent that they are allowed to alter the show's footage, or keeping the footage as it is, flaws included, and honoring the materials as they were received from the original animation company?
To me, I'm not going to blindly follow "principles". FUNimation's tampering with the orange bricks was unnecessary, and made the show look worse. I won't be a hypocrite for saying that I want them to slightly alter the RGB levels (reduce the mid range of greens a little bit) for Kai because Toei (or specifically, whoever was in charge of color timing) apparently doesn't have their monitors properly calibrated, or they're colorblind.

In this case, it's an extremely simple "fix", and would only benefit the show, therefore I would support it.

Hell, if FUNimation used those recently discovered cel scans from that Japanese site to color correct the Dragon Box footage to match them, I'd support that, given color correction was all they did (no destructive filtering and "grain" removal).
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by ShinGaijin » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:17 pm

kei17 wrote:The green tint is lessned in these French shots because they're from a crappy reddish source captured with an analog device, which is shared on some French pirating websites.
Absolutely ("Peritel" problem for sure :lol: Lord, what a crappy system).Thankfully, there's several sources.Here's some clips captured with digital devices.

Proper SD : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ve8XEGDs9s
Proper Full HD : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoUZDSrQvhw

About colors differences, in the Korean version, colors look strictly identical to the Japanese version.However, in the French SD/HD episodes, colors seems warmer.I wonder if it's simply due to NTSC > PAL conversion, more than a color correction from Kaze or Toei Europe.
DBZ_Lee wrote:At the very least, the 4:3 is a good thing for FUNI's eventual release. (assuming they want it 4:3, to match the 1st Series)
I'd like this more than everything too, but I've lost all hope, Toei is too stingy.That said...have you noticed that too ? :
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International
These openings were originally developed in 4:3 or what ? :HOPE:

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by SSJ Electric Fury » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:02 am

ShinGaijin wrote:
These openings were originally developed in 4:3 or what ? :HOPE:
Looking back at the opening, I, too, noticed many of its scenes do have a generous amount of negative space on the sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7G3NwB4AWg
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by Kendamu » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:32 am

There's general principles to abide by, but they shouldn't limit you from releasing an actually superior product. It's not like there was zero color correction in the DBZ Level Sets or the Blue Bricks. But, if it's like the DBox where you're buying it because you're getting EXACTLY what Japan gets, then you leave it alone, red tint and all.

The green tint won't ruin it for me, but it's an easy fix that is like to see FUNi do so I won't have to do it myself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by Metalwario64 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:58 am

Kendamu wrote:There's general principles to abide by, but they shouldn't limit you from releasing an actually superior product.
Certainly. I don't know if you're referring to my post, but I just mean I don't have a "zero tolerance" policy where I believe one thing should be the case no matter what. I've seen plenty of people trying to toss that idea around in regards to FUNimation fixing the green tint, and presenting the argument as "if you don't mind FUNimation fixing the color in Kai, then you should be okay with the orange bricks", which is taking the "don't mess with it" ideal way too literally and strictly in my eyes. I'm not saying there aren't any guidelines to follow, just that it's not good to blindly follow them with no exceptions whatsoever. Basically, exactly as you said, just expounded upon. I just didn't want you to think I was saying I had absolutely no principles are guidelines I feel they should stick with for their releases. :lol:

In this case, fixing the green tint (and in 4x3 if possible, albeit unlikely) would only be a good thing, so I'd support doing it. Filtering and cropping the Orange Bricks and the new Blu-rays looks terrible, so I'm against it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by Flame Dragon » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:39 pm

Guys, it's not like they have to do some massive work... they just need to adjust a bit the RGB levels. There's no way to Orange Brick this.
You would need to really suck to fuck up something like that.

Besides, integrity has no place here when Toei was the first to say "fuck integrity" when they decided to put out a subpar product. I bet they even knew about their uncalibrated monitors and said "fuck it", afterall they fixed the green tint present in BOG first trailers.

Honestly, it's a very small change that would improve these releases DRASTICALLY.
So... why the f not?

I hope someone lets Sabat/Schemmel know about this, i want to see Kai brought to justice at least for the US.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:47 pm

Let me ask this to Kanzenshuuers who are knowledgeable about video (aka not me): is the green tint equally strong across all episodes, or does it vary from episode to episode, or scene to scene?

I ask because if it's literally the exact same strength across all episodes, then I suppose it wouldn't be a difficult operation to just dial in some automated color correction settings and run the episodes through it, no need for spot-checking.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by Darkblade1995 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:20 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:Let me ask this to Kanzenshuuers who are knowledgeable about video (aka not me): is the green tint equally strong across all episodes, or does it vary from episode to episode, or scene to scene?

I ask because if it's literally the exact same strength across all episodes, then I suppose it wouldn't be a difficult operation to just dial in some automated color correction settings and run the episodes through it, no need for spot-checking.
If I remember correctly, it was stated that the green tint is pretty much the same in all scenes and all episodes, with some very subtle differences here and there, but overall the tint is pretty consistent.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:36 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:Here's an interesting question, though--if FUNimation went ahead and "fixed" the green tint and the aspect ratio, isn't that setting a precedent that fans are theoretically OK with them altering the footage from the way it was originally provided to them by Toei?
Just because Toei goes and does something does not mean that it is the best decision. The way they have handled Kai 2.0 is proof of that. NO ONE here likes the tint, so FUNimation should release something that is better. Another example is the music: just because Toei thinks a then-60 year old "composer's" farts made good background music for Z doesn't mean that it is a good decision. If Toei intends to release something in a shitty way, they could just be idiots and it's up to FUNimation to save us from it (referring to Kai 2.0 since everyone here hates the tint).

Heck, 4Kids made the first Yu-Gi-Oh! movie. Their version was the original, and when Japan went and dubbed it, they changed a few things. In my opinion, Japan's version is the better one, even if it is not the original or 100% true to 4Kids' intentions. I think the only bad decisions FUNimation has made is when they did the nasty crop to Z for their orange brick/BD releases, and of course the poor job they did on the former with the major loss of detail.

TL;DR If Toei half-asses something or makes a bad decision, forget "intent" or "it's the original." They don't know what they're doing. And I think we all agree with the man I quoted that if FUNimation does change the tint, it will be "fixing" it (provided they get rid of it).
alakazam^ wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:24 pm
Shiyonasan wrote:Just when you thought there couldn't be anymore Yamamoto rip offs...
At this point, I think it's safe to say everything he did was plagiarized. Basically, if you hear a tune that sounds like it could have vocals, then it most likely did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by gregoryluis09 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:37 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
TheBlackPaladin wrote:Here's an interesting question, though--if FUNimation went ahead and "fixed" the green tint and the aspect ratio, isn't that setting a precedent that fans are theoretically OK with them altering the footage from the way it was originally provided to them by Toei?
Just because Toei goes and does something does not mean that it is the best decision. The way they have handled Kai 2.0 is proof of that. NO ONE here likes the tint, so FUNimation should release something that is better. Another example is the music: just because Toei thinks a then-60 year old "composer's" farts made good background music for Z doesn't mean that it is a good decision. If Toei intends to release something in a shitty way, they could just be idiots and it's up to FUNimation to save us from it (referring to Kai 2.0 since everyone here hates the tint).

Heck, 4Kids made the first Yu-Gi-Oh! movie. Their version was the original, and when Japan went and dubbed it, they changed a few things. In my opinion, Japan's version is the better one, even if it is not the original or 100% true to 4Kids' intentions. I think the only bad decisions FUNimation has made is when they did the nasty crop to Z for their orange brick/BD releases, and of course the poor job they did on the former with the major loss of detail.

TL;DR If Toei half-asses something or makes a bad decision, forget "intent" or "it's the original." They don't know what they're doing. And I think we all agree with the man I quoted that if FUNimation does change the tint, it will be "fixing" it (provided they get rid of it).
4Kids made the second Yu-Gi-Oh! movie. Who made the first one was Toei.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by SSJ Electric Fury » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:59 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:NO ONE here likes the tint, so FUNimation should release something that is better. Another example is the music: just because Toei thinks a then-60 year old "composer's" farts made good background music for Z doesn't mean that it is a good decision.
Whether Shunsuke Kikuchi's score is good or not is subjective. Whether Kai 2.0's green-tinted footage reflects the color choices of the original Z animators is objective. Replacing the original soundtrack was an attempt to overwrite an art piece. Changing the colors back would instead be an attempt to restore an art piece.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:34 am

gregoryluis09 wrote:4Kids made the second Yu-Gi-Oh! movie. Who made the first one was Toei.
I know. I was talking about the one most people know about which got subtitled Pyramid of Light. A lot of people don't know about the first one Toei did with that green-haired dude.
SSJ Electric Fury wrote:
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:NO ONE here likes the tint, so FUNimation should release something that is better. Another example is the music: just because Toei thinks a then-60 year old "composer's" farts made good background music for Z doesn't mean that it is a good decision.
Whether Shunsuke Kikuchi's score is good or not is subjective. Whether Kai 2.0's green-tinted footage reflects the color choices of the original Z animators is objective. Replacing the original soundtrack was an attempt to overwrite an art piece. Changing the colors back would instead be an attempt to restore an art piece.
What we need is something good--it doesn't have to reflect "intent" by Toei or any of the animators. Fixing the tint issue would be proper. Anything else is just good/bad depending on what's done. Unfortunately, the show is already technically a bad art piece due to the poor animation. Kanzenshuu itself says we got a shoddy piece of work because Toei was cheap. This isn't something that can be truly compared to films like Five Centimeters / Second or something....
alakazam^ wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:24 pm
Shiyonasan wrote:Just when you thought there couldn't be anymore Yamamoto rip offs...
At this point, I think it's safe to say everything he did was plagiarized. Basically, if you hear a tune that sounds like it could have vocals, then it most likely did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by ChibiGoku » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:50 am

gregoryluis09 wrote: 4Kids made the second Yu-Gi-Oh! movie. Who made the first one was Toei.
Correction: 4Kids commissioned the production of the movie, including the funding for it, but they didn't actually create the movie. Gallop, the studio behind the second Yu-Gi-Oh! series and everything Yu-Gi-Oh! related going forward, produced the movie. They wrote, directed, scripted, storyboarded, etc., and worked with the studio that was helping out on the animation for Yu-Gi-Oh! GX, Dong Woo Animation, as well as TV Tokyo and NAS/ADK to produce the animated feature. The American version of the movie definitely came first, but when the movie was released back in Japan, additional work was done for the movie, the cut was slightly different, plus some minor animation changes (outside of card design) was also applied. Although, in a sense, 4Kids was involved in the movie's production, but most of the creative side of production came from the Japanese side of things. The same thing is to be said for Kinnikuman Nisei's additional episodes (which 4Kids only requested they change one thing, which was the removal of the Japanese writing from the characters foreheads), as well as Yu-Gi-Oh! Capsule Monsters (which was supposed to be released in Japan as Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters ALEX).

It's also worth noting 4Kids did not have any involvement with Sonic X's episodes of 53 onwards. TMS decided to produce additional episodes, as a result of the series popularity. Although the episodes were produced specifically for the International market, they weren't specifically for the United States. Trust me, if 4Kids was involved in the production of the last part of Sonic X, I seriously doubt they'd have a story centering around genocide and death.

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by geebs61 » Sat May 02, 2015 4:45 am

SSJ Electric Fury wrote:
ShinGaijin wrote:
These openings were originally developed in 4:3 or what ? :HOPE:
Looking back at the opening, I, too, noticed many of its scenes do have a generous amount of negative space on the sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7G3NwB4AWg
I went ahead and did a quick n' dirty 4:3 center-crop on the intro in your link. While I've had several glasses of champagne tonight, I am thoroughly confident in saying that the intro was at the very least developed with the idea that it could be cropped to 4:3 at some point in in the future.

https://youtu.be/uFdYbmpfsQs

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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sat May 02, 2015 5:40 am

geebs61 wrote:I went ahead and did a quick n' dirty 4:3 center-crop on the intro in your link. While I've had several glasses of champagne tonight, I am thoroughly confident in saying that the intro was at the very least developed with the idea that it could be cropped to 4:3 at some point in in the future.

https://youtu.be/uFdYbmpfsQs
It looks really good!
I'd say it's zoomed in too much (for example, the logo reaches both sides of the screen, but I bet Toei has a little bit of extra footage in the sides to zoom out a bit.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by dbboxkaifan » Sat May 02, 2015 12:52 pm

geebs61 wrote:I went ahead and did a quick n' dirty 4:3 center-crop on the intro in your link. While I've had several glasses of champagne tonight, I am thoroughly confident in saying that the intro was at the very least developed with the idea that it could be cropped to 4:3 at some point in in the future.

https://youtu.be/uFdYbmpfsQs
I like what you did there but after seeing it uncropped in 16x9 with extra picture the 4x3 AR just feels unnatural now.
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Re: Dragon Ball Kai Green Tint

Post by bleed0range » Wed May 06, 2015 12:13 am

What causes this green tint anyway? Is it that they're using the original film stock and it's degraded over time to appear "green" and they haven't attempted any actual remastering of the footage? I know literally nothing about this whole process, I'm just interested to learn some things about it. The only reason I bring this up, is thinking back to when they remastered Star Wars, they showed the original footage which looked all green or some other odd color and they managed to get it to look absolutely great. Is it just the stock footage as is without any attempt to fix it up? If so, would that mean they're not taking care of the original masters?

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