If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

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MasenkoHA
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If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:17 pm

Would you have any interest? For me

Pros:
While not near as bad as Z there was still some insipid filler that I would be glad to see go

Pre-Z Dragon Ball needs more attentions and love

It would at least give Funimation a chance to do a good dub because after recently watching most of it the Funimation 2001 dub is pretty fucking bad.

Cons:
While there’s some debate how well the Shunsuke Kikuchi score fits Z (mostly Funi’s fault but still) its pretty much universally agreed the Kikuchi score for Dragon Ball fits the series to a T. Can you imagine Dragon Ball with a new score? Especially since it would probably be composed by Sumitomo.

Kai TFC is mostly agreed to be half-assed by Toei and this would probably feel the same way and given how little Funimation seems to care about Pre-Z Dragon Ball they would probably just recycle their old scripts with more of the bad jokes removed for their dub so the only plus you would get is no more Nadolny and no more Vollmer.

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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:22 am

I would totally be on board with a pre-Z Dragon Ball Kai, but sadly I think the ship has sailed by now and I can't see there being a demand. That said there are bigger and better things for TOEI to focus on for now, like doing a HD release of the original series which I also want really bad.
MasenkoHA wrote:It would at least give Funimation a chance to do a good dub because after recently watching most of it the Funimation 2001 dub is pretty fucking bad.
I agree I'd love to see a Kai version, even if just for an excuse for Funimation to do a better dub, but TOEI are (understandably) not accountable for their mistakes.
MasenkoHA wrote:While there’s some debate how well the Shunsuke Kikuchi score fits Z (mostly Funi’s fault but still) its pretty much universally agreed the Kikuchi score for Dragon Ball fits the series to a T. Can you imagine Dragon Ball with a new score? Especially since it would probably be composed by Sumitomo.
For me it's not even a question, the Kikuchi score fits Z just as well as original Dragon Ball. I like Sumitomo, but unless TOEI rescored Kai 1.0 with his music it would be weird to go from Sumitomko to Yamamoto or Kikuchi (or a mix of both as almost no one has the former score in its entirety) and back to Sumitomo for TFC.

Honestly if TOEI ever do a pre-Z Kai it will be in years to come so more than likely it will be an entirely new composer, which I am ok with as long as it fits the show.
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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:21 am

First off, they should have started from the beginning with Kai anyway. Skipping to Z was stupid.

Second off, I think Kai-ification of OG DB would probably be easier than Z, since a large portion of it was done with a decent lead on the manga, allowing huge swathes of the early run to be essentially great as-is, so really you'd probably only have to cut a couple of episodes' worth of material out of the first 30 episodes...
However, I think if Toei had done the smart thing and started from the actual beginning of the story, it would be best to put a lot of effort into speeding up the overall pace, even when the show did work fine as-is. To a modern viewpoint, a lot of DB and Z ran fairly slowly, particularly with bingewatching culture, so I would say speeding the whole thing along would have given us a rather cool thing.

So, not only would this be a good thing, but I think Toei were stupid not to.

But also, third off, Kai covering the entire original story would have been of great benefit to the dubbing studios involved, since it would have given both Funimation and Ocean the chance to do a single, full, consistent dubbing run of the original Dragon Ball story(As in, the full original story, not just DB or Z), thus giving both a great way of watching the original run in a nice, consistent way that works nicely in the modern day, and giving a great jumping-off point for Super for either/both studio(s), both of which are not just great for older fans, but for newer fans who want to either jump into watching Dragon Ball, or who want to get caught up for Super.

As it stands, though... That train has sailed.

But anyway, with Toei's incompetence(See: The entire Boo Kai affair), combined with the Yamamoto plagiarism scandal, it would have probably been balls'd up anyway.
If Toei had done Kai right, it would have had Tokunaga or one of the non-Yamamoto video game composers(Not just because of the plagiarism, either; Yamamoto just wasn't the best choice in my opinion. Other video game composers have given a much more authentic Dragon Ball feel, and I personally consider Tokunaga the best composer Dragon Ball has ever had. Even those who aren't big GT fans can surely appreciate where I'm coming from, with the 10th anniversary movie and its uttery brilliant score), it would have done DB, and they wouldn't have broken the run up with a Boo Kai-type mess.

As it is, Kai kind of comes off as just as much a cheap, cynical cash-in as Super is when looked at through the lens of why they skipped the first third of the story, and even then, broke it up and in the process screwed up Boo really badly, and throughout the run went with very "Modern" sounding composers over those who could do a much more Dragon Ball-y score... :roll:
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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:48 am

Robo4900 wrote:First off, they should have started from the beginning with Kai anyway. Skipping to Z was stupid.
They did Z because it's the popular portion of the series. It's a financial move. I completely understand it.
Robo4900 wrote:If Toei had done Kai right, it would have had Tokunaga or one of the non-Yamamoto video game composers ... Other video game composers have given a much more authentic Dragon Ball feel, and I personally consider Tokunaga the best composer Dragon Ball has ever had.
He's really good, but Yamamoto was the best despite his plagiarism. He worked on the games for decades and totally had the feel for the show nailed down. It's a shame he ripped off other musicians.
Robo4900 wrote:As it is, Kai kind of comes off as just as much a cheap, cynical cash-in as Super is when looked at through the lens of why they skipped the first third of the story, and even then, broke it up and in the process screwed up Boo really badly, and throughout the run went with very "Modern" sounding composers over those who could do a much more Dragon Ball-y score... :roll:
The first Kai was done to cut out filler of the show and because Toei needed something to fill a timeslot. The second Kai was done due to the urging of investors. Ultimately, I think the two shows are the biggest reason we have Super today because Battle of Gods. They helped reinvigorate fans of the franchise and a new movie got commissioned because of it. Sure, Boo Kai could have been better, but it ultimately served a much greater purpose. Thanks to it, we have two (soon to be three) new movies and a new series.

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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:49 am

Kai for me is a Catch-22 situation because while there is plenty of bad filler-filled episodes (pirate robot, anybody?) and some downright confusing dub changes (not talking about sunglasses? Hero's an alien??), I'm absolutely in love with all of the vocal performances in the show outside of Jr. and Teen Goku. In particular I am forever smitten with Nadolny's Kid Goku, and doing a Kai would mean losing all of that and having it replaced with Clinkenbeard. Kinda why I started The First Chapters edit, to try and get the best of both worlds.

Filler removal I think would be of the best benefit though because if you edit most of it out you wind up with about 80 episodes worth of content, which you can pitch to a modern fan as "dude, it's shorter than Super and not much longer than GT". Cutting down on the original arc (which puts most Z fans off), excising the World/Kami Training and Wedding Dress arcs, and tightening up the Red Ribbon Army arc would do wonders in making the show more accessible. The music IMO doesn't need to be touched: moreso than Z, Kikuchi's music just MAKES the show and absolutely fits the tone.

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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:01 pm

KBABZ wrote: In particular I am forever smitten with Nadolny's Kid Goku, and doing a Kai would mean losing all of that and having it replaced with Clinkenbeard.
The real catch-22. While, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over Nadolny being replaced, Clinkenbeard’s Goku just doesn’t do it for me .
Filler removal I think would be of the best benefit though because if you edit most of it out you wind up with about 80 episodes worth of content
Well there is that one fan edit that reduced it to 82 episodes.

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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:05 pm

Robo4900 wrote:First off, they should have started from the beginning with Kai anyway. Skipping to Z was stupid.
I agree it only added to the misconception that nothing mattered before Raditz landed on earth or that the two series are vastly difference when the series pretty much found its footing by the time of the 21st tournament and certaintly by the Piccolo Daimou saga the only thing that distinguishes it from “Z” is Kid Goku

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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:17 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
KBABZ wrote:Filler removal I think would be of the best benefit though because if you edit most of it out you wind up with about 80 episodes worth of content
Well there is that one fan edit that reduced it to 82 episodes.
Yup! Big inspiration for my own take on Kai-ing the series (although I focus on the dub and completely redo the credits and titles cards and blah blah blah).

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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:50 pm

Seems like TOEI had plans to extend the Kai franchise to other parts of the Dragon Ball universe but in the end, it was one big half-assed shitty ass product that wasn't even consistent in music or in aspect ratio (TFC is a standalone product rather than a continuation of the original Kai, though). I loved Dragon Ball Kai's original broadcast run with the Yamamoto music but that's almost forbidden to speak of since it was removed from practically all releases in the world (except the repackaged Manga UK Season 1 & 2 Blu-rays and DVDs).

We're now well passed that bridge and Kai is just what it is, what you make of it.

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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:06 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:They did Z because it's the popular portion of the series. It's a financial move. I completely understand it.
Incorrect. Ratings for the first half of OG DB are the strongest the franchise has ever had. Second half is also generally much stronger than Z or GT were.

Take a look at Kanzenshuu's episode guide if you're looking for a source on this.
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:The first Kai was done to cut out filler of the show and because Toei needed something to fill a timeslot. The second Kai was done due to the urging of investors. Ultimately, I think the two shows are the biggest reason we have Super today because Battle of Gods. They helped reinvigorate fans of the franchise and a new movie got commissioned because of it. Sure, Boo Kai could have been better, but it ultimately served a much greater purpose. Thanks to it, we have two (soon to be three) new movies and a new series.
Also incorrect.

Kai 2.0 was most likely created for the foreign distributors for whom it was very good, including Funimation. For Toei, Kai 1.0 wasn't merely a timeslot filler, it was something of a big deal -- the "Refreshed" HD version of Dragon Ball Z -- and it in fact was rather successful in ratings, but it was ultimately canned due to poor merchandise sales in favour of a then-new Toei property, Toriko(At least, I think it was Toriko). Boo Kai made it to air in the end, after Toriko proved a failure and Toei needed something to fill that timeslot, and Boo Kai proved a cheap, easy way to do this, since they were already producing it for the foreign distributors. I imagine this information was relayed to you confusingly, thus leading to your misconception of these events. Easy mistake to make, honestly.

As for the existence of Super and Battle Of Gods, Kai wasn't anywhere near the biggest, or even second biggest for why the franchise was revived. Biggest, we can be pretty certain, is the Kanzenban re-release of the manga, and the Dragon Box release of the anime. After the GT ended in '97, the manga's re-release and the DVDs of the anime began around 2002/2003, and re-ignited interest in the franchise after it had pretty much been dead. This combined with all the video games being released from that time on really breathed life into the franchise. That lead to Toei eventually wanting to get some new Dragon Ball out there. We got the 2008 and 2010 OVAs, which were rather successful, Kai which was rather a mixed success, and finally, Toei decided to do a movie in Battle Of Gods. BOG and ResF being rather a success is how Super came about.
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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by PremiumSalt » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:09 pm

I think in a world where Super didn't exist, Toei might have slapped together a Pre-Z Dragon Ball Kai for foreign distributors as they did for the Boo arc. Of course, that's not how history went. Mind you I love Super, but I wish I could live in a timeline where both it and Pre-Z Kai existed :( , if for no other reason than for FUNimation to have an excuse to re dub that era.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: If they made a Dragon Ball Kai for Pre-Z Dragon Ball

Post by Fizzer » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:56 am

Kai should have covered the entire manga to begin with, in the style of Kai 1.0. It would have been a fantastic product that would have sold very well oversees and a much better way to recruit a new generation of fans.

They might have needed a bigger merchandising push, with extensive new lines of action figures, cards and so on, and they might very well have had to "censor" some early material for TV, but that's completely fine.

The story easily divides into five eras which could have unique openings and endings, which again least to marketing and merchandising. Heck, give each arc it's own ending theme. Break them into seasons for the sake of relaunch promotions. Whatever.

Given the plagiarism scandal ideally they would choose a different composer as well, and maybe they would if they were including the earlier storylines. If I ever finish work on my TARDIS, I'll make sure to tell them.

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