Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

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Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by superfan2024 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:25 pm

Most anime that get re-made after having a previous anime that used the same story from the manga typically have completely new animation. How come DB Kai didn't get the same treatment? There were completely new OPs and EDs, a completely new OST, completely new eye-catchers, and a completely new voice-over by the entire cast. Yet, with all of this, they just decided to reuse the same animation but just remaster it and chop off filler. Not to mention, the Dragon Ball Z Kai: The Final Chapters had horrific remastering. Was there a reason they didn't just make new animation?

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by NewKakarot » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:59 pm

Not the most knowledgeable when it comes to behind the scenes at Toei, some I'm most likely wrong, but I have 2 guesses:

1) Maybe they were too cheap to spend the extra money? While Dragon Ball makes them tons of money, I've heard that Toei doesn't really like to spend too much. And they'd have to recreate over 100 episodes, with the chance that it could fail. Some viewers might think that it isn't worth waiting a few years for a weekly series when it's already been completed before and Z is still a viable option. Then again, they did remake Sailor Moon from scratch with Sailor Moon Crystal, so idk.

2) Maybe they didn't see the need to? Dragon Ball Z was a pretty faithful adaptation, and they could legitimately get away with just cutting out most of the filler. Granted, they couldn't get rid of all of it (like Gregory is still around), but they still removed a lot. I don't think it would've been as easy to do the same for other shows, like Dragon Ball. I feel like it's impossible to crop out the filler scenes in the original anime just because of the way certain scenes were adapted.

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:08 am

How the thing turned out and what we think of it as an end product aside... Toei produced Kai as a cheap cash-in. They remastered the original footage, had that guy who's been scoring some video games come in to put some music to it, cut the episode count way down, market it as a "Refreshed" edition, kind of like a director's cut, then when it wasn't convenient anymore, they cut it short at 98 episodes, then briefly brought it back because it made a lot of money in the foreign markets and those markets really wanted the end bit.

Doing new animation would have been really expensive, or utterly terrible.
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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:17 am

Unlike a lot of people here I really don't have a problem with how Kai was created, at least for episodes 1-98.

It is, after all the only cost effective way people can watch the Saiyan-Cell arcs in 4:3, and most likely new animation, much like Super would have been hit or miss to say the least.

I also like watching the series with a faster pace and also seeing the shots of animation I'm so familiar with, so I welcomed the idea of a director's cut with open arms, and still do.
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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:42 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:17 am
Unlike a lot of people here I really don't have a problem with how Kai was created, at least for episodes 1-98.

It is, after all the only cost effective way people can watch the Saiyan-Cell arcs in 4:3, and most likely new animation, much like Super would have been hit or miss to say the least.

I also like watching the series with a faster pace and also seeing the shots of animation I'm so familiar with, so I welcomed the idea of a director's cut with open arms, and still do.
I mostly agree, though the skipping of the pre-Raditz material is, in my opinion, an utterly unforgivable flaw.

However, it is ultimately just one flaw in a product that otherwise serves its purpose rather well. :)
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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:52 pm

I'm satisfied it was mostly left with the Z footage in high definition, the redrawn at times were pretty jarring and questionable but not that big of a deal. Still, swapping the middle finger for a fist where Vegeta was talking to Gohan in Name was kinda annoying.

The use of middle finger was pretty common back in the days of Classic Dragon Ball:

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by superfan2024 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:34 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmV-pPvCyJc

Things like this gave me a little hope that a re-animated DB manga would've been a little good. (Aside from Yamamuro of course).

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:03 pm

superfan2024 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:34 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmV-pPvCyJc

Things like this gave me a little hope that a re-animated DB manga would've been a little good. (Aside from Yamamuro of course).
A full-on reanimated version of Dragon Ball Z is available on Dragon Ball: Ultimate Blast. It really looks gorgeous and a shame it wasn't sold separately on Blu-ray as a "Special". The only difference that I can tell of DB:UB from Japanese to Western, is logo (DB:UB / DBZ:UT) and the music, the music on the cutscenes is the same (no synthesized Kikuchi, iirc).

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by TheAldella » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:37 am

Trust me. You don't want the version of Kai where it was new animation. Toei were handling 7 other shows in-and-out of 2009, not counting One Piece. They had to fill something in that timeslot, and they were already stretched thin. It would've looked as bad as, if not, worse, than early Super.
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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by Metalwario64 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:35 am

TheAldella wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:37 am
Trust me. You don't want the version of Kai where it was new animation. Toei were handling 7 other shows in-and-out of 2009, not counting One Piece. They had to fill something in that timeslot, and they were already stretched thin. It would've looked as bad as, if not, worse, than early Super.
Plus, Yamamuro's style was really bad, so it would have looked worse than the old footage.

Now... a full, truly manga accurate remake with Shintani's designs would be worthwhile, or new designs for each arc based on the respective manga arc's artwork, like the Jojo series would be great.

Too bad that ship has long since sailed.
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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:41 am

You're aware of DBZ UT? Just pop in the disc in your 360 or PS3 and watch that since they made a reanimated version of DBZ in high definition. It's even somewhat more complete considering it includes the Majin Boo arc.

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by BeerusTrinken » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:22 pm

Largely because it didn't need to be.

This wasn't a "remake", or a replacement series such as HxH or FMA. This was just a little reairing of the original show as a small celebration of the 20th Anniversary. As an extra pull, it was going to have most of the filler cut out, more modern music, some fixed up shots and the original cast re-recording their lines.

Fan hype was one of the major nails in Kai's coffin, with many fans at the time acting betrayed or insulted at the final product when it was exactly what Toei had said it would be. It wasn't Toei's fault that fans over inflated their expectations.

Kai was, as someone said, just a cheap way to keep the Dragon Ball money train going a few more years. Which, no judgement. There isn't a modern franchise alive that isn't about the money. The original Z was still beloved but here was a good was to remarket the show for a low budget.

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:37 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:41 am
You're aware of DBZ UT? Just pop in the disc in your 360 or PS3 and watch that since they made a reanimated version of DBZ in high definition. It's even somewhat more complete considering it includes the Majin Boo arc.
lol wut? They are only a few minutes of reanimated footage in that game...

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:06 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:37 pm
JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:41 am
You're aware of DBZ UT? Just pop in the disc in your 360 or PS3 and watch that since they made a reanimated version of DBZ in high definition. It's even somewhat more complete considering it includes the Majin Boo arc.
lol wut? They are only a few minutes of reanimated footage in that game...
Only a few minutes here and there but it sure does feel like a whole lot more than that. Plus, the DVD-like gameplay is also part of the experience but the cutscenes are perfectly fine on their own.

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:39 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:06 pm
Only a few minutes here and there but it sure does feel like a whole lot more than that. Plus, the DVD-like gameplay is also part of the experience but the cutscenes are perfectly fine on their own.
Sure, they are fine cutscenes, but that isn't enough for someone who wants the whole series reanimated. I'm fine with how Kai was though.

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by louisascommie » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:43 pm

If they ever did a complete reanimation of the manga they would probably rework some of the rapey jokes, redesign all of the non Mr popo (who still shows up in super with not a redesign, that's really odd?) To still be black characters just not black face. All changes I would be fine with though there would probably be some weirdos that complain "that reducing the blackface is ruining the integrity of dragon ball with western sjw values or some bs"

The change would rather not happen but would have to happen becuase of the broadcast standard changes in japan is some reduction in blood and the like but whatever

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:44 pm

louisascommie wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:43 pm
If they ever did a complete reanimation of the manga they would probably rework some of the rapey jokes, redesign all of the non Mr popo (who still shows up in super with not a redesign, that's really odd?) To still be black characters just not black face. All changes I would be fine with though there would probably be some weirdos that complain "that reducing the blackface is ruining the integrity of dragon ball with western sjw values or some bs"

The change would rather not happen but would have to happen becuase of the broadcast standard changes in japan is some reduction in blood and the like but whatever
The whole Mr. Popo being "offensive" is moreso an issue that exists in US because the rest of the world doesn't care. It's Mr. Popo, that's it.

People these days find an excuse to call everything racist and sexist. Not a day goes by when it doesn't happen.

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by BeerusTrinken » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:43 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:44 pm
louisascommie wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:43 pm
If they ever did a complete reanimation of the manga they would probably rework some of the rapey jokes, redesign all of the non Mr popo (who still shows up in super with not a redesign, that's really odd?) To still be black characters just not black face. All changes I would be fine with though there would probably be some weirdos that complain "that reducing the blackface is ruining the integrity of dragon ball with western sjw values or some bs"

The change would rather not happen but would have to happen becuase of the broadcast standard changes in japan is some reduction in blood and the like but whatever
The whole Mr. Popo being "offensive" is moreso an issue that exists in US because the rest of the world doesn't care. It's Mr. Popo, that's it.

People these days find an excuse to call everything racist and sexist. Not a day goes by when it doesn't happen.
The "rest of the world" doesn't care is a bit strong. It's not a thing on most of the world's mind, but when asked, most would care about a race of people subjugated for so long being constantly reminded of a time when they were comically mocked for the hilarity of the oppressors and would agree it's probably best not to continue that practise.

Funnily enough Mr Popo's design doesn't bother me, I guess because I find it so far removed from blackface but again I'm not from the US so my sensibilities are different. The rapey jokes, however, do make me squirm slightly in my 21st Century values. Particularly the things at the start of Dragon Ball. However, asking my female friends about it, some are bothered, some aren't. Depends on the values. The jokes in the Z portion are much lighter and goofier. Also, they're usually punished so it somewhat balances out for me.

However, Dragon Ball doesn't need to be reanimated. The original is already so good and such a classic that any new version would have to be an animation and directorial marvel to avoid any criticism whatsoever, and with respect to Dragon Ball, a fun gag manga from the 80s doesn't need that. We have the original, and we have a nice little professional edit to have alongside.

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by louisascommie » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:28 pm

BeerusTrinken wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:43 pm
JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:44 pm
louisascommie wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:43 pm
If they ever did a complete reanimation of the manga they would probably rework some of the rapey jokes, redesign all of the non Mr popo (who still shows up in super with not a redesign, that's really odd?) To still be black characters just not black face. All changes I would be fine with though there would probably be some weirdos that complain "that reducing the blackface is ruining the integrity of dragon ball with western sjw values or some bs"

The change would rather not happen but would have to happen becuase of the broadcast standard changes in japan is some reduction in blood and the like but whatever
The whole Mr. Popo being "offensive" is moreso an issue that exists in US because the rest of the world doesn't care. It's Mr. Popo, that's it.

People these days find an excuse to call everything racist and sexist. Not a day goes by when it doesn't happen.
The "rest of the world" doesn't care is a bit strong. It's not a thing on most of the world's mind, but when asked, most would care about a race of people subjugated for so long being constantly reminded of a time when they were comically mocked for the hilarity of the oppressors and would agree it's probably best not to continue that practise.

Funnily enough Mr Popo's design doesn't bother me, I guess because I find it so far removed from blackface but again I'm not from the US so my sensibilities are different. The rapey jokes, however, do make me squirm slightly in my 21st Century values. Particularly the things at the start of Dragon Ball. However, asking my female friends about it, some are bothered, some aren't. Depends on the values. The jokes in the Z portion are much lighter and goofier. Also, they're usually punished so it somewhat balances out for me.

However, Dragon Ball doesn't need to be reanimated. The original is already so good and such a classic that any new version would have to be an animation and directorial marvel to avoid any criticism whatsoever, and with respect to Dragon Ball, a fun gag manga from the 80s doesn't need that. We have the original, and we have a nice little professional edit to have alongside.
I actually think a full reanimation is likely probably for like the 50th anniversary of the dragon ball manga

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Re: Why wasn't DB Kai a completely new animated series?

Post by emperior » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:49 am

I would like to add that, as pointed out by other users, a reanimated version of Kai would have looked terrible at the time, not only due to how many shows Toei was producing at the time, but because they would have used the awful designs by Yamamuro, so I’m glad it wasn’t reanimated as I could enjoy Kai for what it was, a remastered faster version of my favorite anime with inferior (yet decent) music, and badly redrawn frames here and there.
That is up until episode 98. I refused to watch anything after that due to how terrible the remastering of Buu arc was.

If they ever decided to completely reanimate Toriyama’s manga, then they should first of all begin from chapter 1, and the visuals should follow the manga’s art style changes throughout the arcs, also using colours faithful to it.
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