Can't get into Kai

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by coola » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:29 pm

Z Broadcast audio release also made ai even more irrelevant for me, i ve got Kai Part 3 and 4 on BD with Yamamoto score, and that was it. Concept itself was pretty interesting, but execution was terrible, and Kai Buu Saga is so far worst DB animated series, 16:9, ugly green tint, almost zero removal of filler, were they even try at that point?
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by SSJmole » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:31 pm

I watched the orginal all the time but I prefer Z Kai , it flows much better and the voice acting is better ect..

I will admit openly I only watch dub though. Only cause for me watching subbed if they are fighting I find it hard to follow action + read , plus dub I got to watch with people.like my nephew and z Kai got him into the show now he's seen all of DB , Z Kai (we are watch TFC now) GT and super.

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:32 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:37 am
blacksymbiote wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:33 am In calling it the Z dub, I feel like I'm saying the other dubs of DBZ don't count.
Try "Funi Z" and "Funi Kai".

And remember, even though it hasn't released, there is a second English dub of Kai too, so just calling Kai "The Kai dub" is equally dismissive as calling Funi's Z dub "The Z dub".
The other Kai English dub hasn’t seen the light of day it’s not hard to figure out which dub people are talking about when referring to the English dub.

I see the point about “Z dub” but even then one version never got a home release or has been on tv since 2004?

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:35 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:37 am
blacksymbiote wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:33 am In calling it the Z dub, I feel like I'm saying the other dubs of DBZ don't count.
Try "Funi Z" and "Funi Kai".

And remember, even though it hasn't released, there is a second English dub of Kai too, so just calling Kai "The Kai dub" is equally dismissive as calling Funi's Z dub "The Z dub".
Considering the other Kai dub has never aired or released, and may never will, it's not really the same thing.

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:10 am

Earlier someone mentioned how the actors in the Japanese version are older now and that it affected the redub for the show. Here is a comparison. Listen to Gohan's scream in the original JP version with what sounds good enough to be broadcast audio, and listen to the Kai version. Definitely a difference. As Ajay said to me on Discord, "The line reads are way worse." These actors have aged 30 years and some of them did not do well, Nozawa being the main one.

Gohan SSJ 2 (JP DBZ) https://youtu.be/hdgZ4BEuYUo?t=70
Gohan SSJ 2 (JP Kai) https://youtu.be/nv9eDNZJEZU?t=75

It's not the best example, but I am running out of time before I go to work so this is all I can show. There are much better examples such as Freeza and Vegeta's VAs showing some decrease in the quality of their line reading. But even so, listen to Gohan's scream in the original version. Much angrier and it has something in the scream that Nozawa couldn't do in the Kai redub. It sounds like someone truly screaming in anger from the depths of his heart to a generic loud scream with some anger in it. Not her fault, but the fact that she was 50-60 when she first did this vs in her 80s when she redid it.

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:06 pm

I can't get into it either, the new performances from Funi's VAs just don't sound quite right to me(I feel the same way about Viz's dub of Sailor Moon, i'm way too used to the DiC and Cloverway VAs for me to be able to get into the new cast)and the new animation is really distracting, and the fact that there's still plenty of filler left in feels like this show missed it's own point of supposedly being "all killer no filler". Plus there's also the censorship, which I find very annoying.

Plus I quite liked some of the filler episodes that were left out of Kai.
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by VirtuaBranson » Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:49 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:06 pm I can't get into it either, the new performances from Funi's VAs just don't sound quite right to me(I feel the same way about Viz's dub of Sailor Moon, i'm way too used to the DiC and Cloverway VAs for me to be able to get into the new cast)and the new animation is really distracting, and the fact that there's still plenty of filler left in feels like this show missed it's own point of supposedly being "all killer no filler". Plus there's also the censorship, which I find very annoying.

Plus I quite liked some of the filler episodes that were left out of Kai.
So, as someone who grew up with the toonami version of the show when it aired, I cant actually go back to that dub anymore. The original dub just sounds terrible to me. I'm quite surprised with some of the responses in here to be honest. I think the performances are objectionably superior to the original as they had at least 10 years of experience with the characters at this point. They just sound more nuanced and expressive. Kai reinvigorated my fandom for the entire series as I could finally associate the acting with my age as I wasn't a teen anymore. I could actually appreciate the differences and advancements they made in dubbing the show.

From a nostalgia standpoint, I could see the argument for wanting it for that. I went back and watched some of the filler and dont miss anything. It doesnt help that the acting was the same stilted, flat performance that the original dub had.

I dont think youre opinion is wrong. I love the original dub for nostalgic reasons, but at 32 I cant stand the acting anymore and dont have time for 291 episodes that drag on.

The censorship does suck a bit, but I didnt feel like I missed much, and its not like the current version of the series with Super has much blood anyway. Filler wise, I think some is ok since its a TV show and it needs some to let it breathe a bit more than a manga. Anyway. I just attribute a lot to Kai for letting me enjoy the series again.

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:01 pm

VirtuaBranson wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:49 pm
Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:06 pm I can't get into it either, the new performances from Funi's VAs just don't sound quite right to me(I feel the same way about Viz's dub of Sailor Moon, i'm way too used to the DiC and Cloverway VAs for me to be able to get into the new cast)and the new animation is really distracting, and the fact that there's still plenty of filler left in feels like this show missed it's own point of supposedly being "all killer no filler". Plus there's also the censorship, which I find very annoying.

Plus I quite liked some of the filler episodes that were left out of Kai.
So, as someone who grew up with the toonami version of the show when it aired, I cant actually go back to that dub anymore. The original dub just sounds terrible to me. I'm quite surprised with some of the responses in here to be honest. I think the performances are objectionably superior to the original as they had at least 10 years of experience with the characters at this point. They just sound more nuanced and expressive. Kai reinvigorated my fandom for the entire series as I could finally associate the acting with my age as I wasn't a teen anymore. I could actually appreciate the differences and advancements they made in dubbing the show.

From a nostalgia standpoint, I could see the argument for wanting it for that. I went back and watched some of the filler and dont miss anything. It doesnt help that the acting was the same stilted, flat performance that the original dub had.

I dont think youre opinion is wrong. I love the original dub for nostalgic reasons, but at 32 I cant stand the acting anymore and dont have time for 291 episodes that drag on.

The censorship does suck a bit, but I didnt feel like I missed much, and its not like the current version of the series with Super has much blood anyway. Filler wise, I think some is ok since its a TV show and it needs some to let it breathe a bit more than a manga. Anyway. I just attribute a lot to Kai for letting me enjoy the series again.
In some places they sound better, but for me all the removing of material I quite enjoyed cancels out any of the improvements in performances(be it censorship or removing entire episodes). Also the new VAs just didn't do it for me, nothing against Monica Rial, Colleen Clinkbeard and Chris Ayers, they are certainly talented VAs but i'm too used to the original Funi voices for Bulma, Gohan and Freeza imperfect as they are to be able to get used to their new voices.

I ignored Kai when it first came out since I assumed it was an attempt to market DBZ to a younger audience(since I saw it airing on places like Nick)once I learned the truth years later I gave it the old college try, but it simply had too many problems for me to overlook despite all the good things it did. Plus there's at least some part of me that can't help but resent the show a little bit for it's Blu-Ray releases taking focus and shelf space away from the far superior Level Sets and I wonder if those would've sold better if the shelves at Walmart, Target and Best Buy weren't being hogged by Kai Blu-Ray's and confusing fans on which version to buy.
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:45 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:01 pm
VirtuaBranson wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:49 pm
Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:06 pm I can't get into it either, the new performances from Funi's VAs just don't sound quite right to me(I feel the same way about Viz's dub of Sailor Moon, i'm way too used to the DiC and Cloverway VAs for me to be able to get into the new cast)and the new animation is really distracting, and the fact that there's still plenty of filler left in feels like this show missed it's own point of supposedly being "all killer no filler". Plus there's also the censorship, which I find very annoying.

Plus I quite liked some of the filler episodes that were left out of Kai.
So, as someone who grew up with the toonami version of the show when it aired, I cant actually go back to that dub anymore. The original dub just sounds terrible to me. I'm quite surprised with some of the responses in here to be honest. I think the performances are objectionably superior to the original as they had at least 10 years of experience with the characters at this point. They just sound more nuanced and expressive. Kai reinvigorated my fandom for the entire series as I could finally associate the acting with my age as I wasn't a teen anymore. I could actually appreciate the differences and advancements they made in dubbing the show.

From a nostalgia standpoint, I could see the argument for wanting it for that. I went back and watched some of the filler and dont miss anything. It doesnt help that the acting was the same stilted, flat performance that the original dub had.

I dont think youre opinion is wrong. I love the original dub for nostalgic reasons, but at 32 I cant stand the acting anymore and dont have time for 291 episodes that drag on.

The censorship does suck a bit, but I didnt feel like I missed much, and its not like the current version of the series with Super has much blood anyway. Filler wise, I think some is ok since its a TV show and it needs some to let it breathe a bit more than a manga. Anyway. I just attribute a lot to Kai for letting me enjoy the series again.
In some places they sound better, but for me all the removing of material I quite enjoyed cancels out any of the improvements in performances(be it censorship or removing entire episodes). Also the new VAs just didn't do it for me, nothing against Monica Rial, Colleen Clinkbeard and Chris Ayers, they are certainly talented VAs but i'm too used to the original Funi voices for Bulma, Gohan and Freeza imperfect as they are to be able to get used to their new voices.

I ignored Kai when it first came out since I assumed it was an attempt to market DBZ to a younger audience(since I saw it airing on places like Nick)once I learned the truth years later I gave it the old college try, but it simply had too many problems for me to overlook despite all the good things it did. Plus there's at least some part of me that can't help but resent the show a little bit for it's Blu-Ray releases taking focus and shelf space away from the far superior Level Sets and I wonder if those would've sold better if the shelves at Walmart, Target and Best Buy weren't being hogged by Kai Blu-Ray's and confusing fans on which version to buy.
I definitely get what you're saying, it's mainly that Kai has become my primary way of watching Z dubbed and i just cannot bring myself to watch the old Z dub much anymore nostalgia aside because the former is hands down one of the FUNi cast's best works along with the recent movies, and Super to a lesser extent that they've done in the 20+ years they have been involved with the characters and true it's not perfect. As to the cutting of large chunks of filler material, there are some of which i wish at least that a little was left in (Gohan's wilderness training.etc) and others i'm glad was done away with entirely (Garlic Jr, Princess Snake.) and while nostalgia is indeed something fans me included have for old Toonami dub i'm glad to have a version that is much more faithful to the source compared to the latter.
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Witty User Name » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 am

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:10 am Earlier someone mentioned how the actors in the Japanese version are older now and that it affected the redub for the show. Here is a comparison. Listen to Gohan's scream in the original JP version with what sounds good enough to be broadcast audio, and listen to the Kai version. Definitely a difference. As Ajay said to me on Discord, "The line reads are way worse." These actors have aged 30 years and some of them did not do well, Nozawa being the main one.
Actually the actors have aged 20 years at the time of Kai and not 30.

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:11 am

Honestly the performances in Kai from the veteran Funimation actors don’t sound that much better than how they did around the Boo saga onward in Z. I think people are mostly comparing them to their immediate post-Ocean takeover episodes in the “Captain Ginyu” episodes to around the Android stuff. They started showing notable improvement around the time they started dubbing Dragon Ball/Boo saga (though the acting was still pretty wretched even still)



As for the replacement actors mostly improvements across the board. Gohan at least resembles a little boy and not a chain smoker (I’m not a huge fan of either of Gohan’s funi voices though), Freeza’s voice fits his character now, and Monica Rial is way more pleasant sounding than Vollmer. But really Vollmer was easily the worst English voice actor Bulma ever had outside of that middle age sounding nanny in the Sleeping Princess dub. Clinkenbeard’s 18 isn’t near as good as Mccoy’s but its fine.

Most of Kai’s problems aren’t really Funimation so much the product itself. The moderate censorship, the redrawn scenes, the whole music thing. Before I could never understand how someone could watch the Z dub and prefer it to Kai but ehh I get it now. The Z dub is really bad but Kai itself is a mediocre product.

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Arteaga4K » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:11 am Honestly the performances in Kai from the veteran Funimation actors don’t sound that much better than how they did around the Boo saga onward in Z. I think people are mostly comparing them to their immediate post-Ocean takeover episodes in the “Captain Ginyu” episodes to around the Android stuff. They started showing notable improvement around the time they started dubbing Dragon Ball/Boo saga (though the acting was still pretty wretched even still)
I disagree. Even comparing the same VAs to their boo saga work is almost a night and day difference. Maybe it had something to do with the direction (although experience definitely helped them) but compare Goku going SSJ3 and Majin Vegeta sacrificing himself in both dubs, it's not even close.
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:32 pm

Witty User Name wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 amActually the actors have aged 20 years at the time of Kai and not 30.
My bad dude. I'm still reeling in from the shock that Kai is 10 years old. It does not feel like it was from that long ago.
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:11 amThe Z dub is really bad but Kai itself is a mediocre product.
I dunno. I still enjoy Kai for its much improved pacing. One thing I hate even now about Z is watching a fight to have it immediately cut to some filler shit. Watch Goku vs Android 19 and watch how you're pumped for the two to fight only to see a long filler segment concerning Master Roshi, Krillin, Launch, and a history about Goku and the Red Ribbon Army. Shit like that bugs me. Same with Goku vs Freeza and the constant cuts to Gohan flying away with Piccolo.

Now Boo Kai is utter shit. Barely removed filler, cropped to widescreen, and that fucking tint. I will never overcome my trigger from the green tint that just ruins it to me. I would take Funimation's bullshit (season sets, 30th Ann.) anyday because those are good products compared to anything with a green tint. It bothers me that much....

/rant

Concerning the Z dub, the Boo arc is not that terrible. When I was watching Boo Kai, I felt as if there weren't any major line changes like we had in season 3 and before with Saban. I remember thinking that the only noticeable new lines were about Goku saying Pure Evil Boo (A.K.A. Kid Boo) was the strongest of all of Majin Boo's forms, and then Vegeta's monologue during Goku's fight with him on the Kai's planet. Specifically where Vegeta mentions Goku being a "freak" for being able to keep up with Boo's speed. But anything else in that entire dub? Not too different from the original Z dub. I've even seen people saying they preferred Majin Vegeta's line to Boo, "I'm going to crush you, and throw you into the wind." There are tiny things but I largely felt like the redub was not too amazing in terms of accuracy whereas I definitely noticed a difference in Kai 1.0.

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Metalwario64 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:48 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:32 pm Now Boo Kai is utter shit. Barely removed filler, cropped to widescreen, and that fucking tint. I will never overcome my trigger from the green tint that just ruins it to me. I would take Funimation's bullshit (season sets, 30th Ann.) anyday because those are good products compared to anything with a green tint. It bothers me that much....

/rant
There are a number of Buu arc episodes in the Dragon Box that have a green tint to them.

Of all of the complaints I have of TFC, I think the green tint is the least of them. I actually like the remaster as a whole, as the colors are more consistent than the Dragon Boxes (which goes from super pink, to cyan, to green in the span of a few episodes), there are no Orange Brick season 2 bright episodes like some of the late fusion episodes on the Dragon Box, and the dark details are almost as good as the first Kai.
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:31 am

Metalwario64 wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:48 pmThere are a number of Buu arc episodes in the Dragon Box that have a green tint to them.
Not like Boo Kai does.... Not at all like Boo Kai does.

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Arteaga4K » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:16 am

The Boo arc always seems to get handled the most poorly video quality wise from Toei. The cyan/pink tint and a few bright episodes from the dragon boxes, and now green tint kai. I know this was for the intentional market, but come on. And that's not even going into the filler they barely trimmed. I guess we're just an afterthought
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:47 am

For whatever issues Kai has, the dub is MUCH better in every way possible. It's been a while since I've heard it, but I can't recall any flat line deliveries off the top of my head, whereas I can recall numerous god awful notable line readings in the original dub.

And yes, I do find it a little weird that someone can't get into the Kai dub.
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:00 am

Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:01 pmThere's some part of me that can't help but resent the show a little bit for it's Blu-Ray releases taking focus and shelf space away from the far superior Level Sets and I wonder if those would've sold better if the shelves weren't being hogged by Kai Blu-Ray's and confusing fans on which version to buy.
Kai was only a small part in the bigger picture that resulted in the level sets getting cancelled. The original Z DVDs and VHS tapes released form 1999-2003 for a total of 87 sets. If each set cost 20$, that's 1700$. Two years later in 2005, they released the ultimate uncut edition, which lasted for one year and got cut short. There were 9 sets, so if each also cost 20$, that's an additional 180$. Followed by that in 2007 was the orange sets, which cost around 25$ each and lasted from 2007-2009 for an additional 225$. Only half a year later, they start releasing the dragon boxes for 40$ a set, bringing the total cost to 280$ for all seven sets.

If anyone bought all of the above, they would've at the very least spent 2400$. That number goes up even further when you take Kai into account. To add a truckload of salt to the rotting injury, they started releasing the level sets ONE MONTH after the dragon boxes. You'd have trouble convincing someone to buy a shorter series twice, yet they asked fans to buy this near 300 episode show not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, not five times (Kai), but SIX times. Of course that didn't stop them from releasing it an additional 3 times, with probably more to come.

Kai, compared to the other releases, was an actual new product (in a way), so if it played any role in the level sets' downfall, it would've been the smallest.
ABED wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:47 amI do find it a little weird that someone can't get into the Kai dub.
I think what's weird is saying they can't get into it because it's worse than Z's. If you can't get into it because you have too much nostalgia for the original, that's fine, but to say it's worse is factually wrong. Your taste may not line up with something for a reason other than it being bad, so I don't know why fans use that to justify not getting into Kai (or anything for that matter).

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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:59 am

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:00 am
Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:01 pmThere's some part of me that can't help but resent the show a little bit for it's Blu-Ray releases taking focus and shelf space away from the far superior Level Sets and I wonder if those would've sold better if the shelves weren't being hogged by Kai Blu-Ray's and confusing fans on which version to buy.
Kai was only a small part in the bigger picture that resulted in the level sets getting cancelled. The original Z DVDs and VHS tapes released form 1999-2003 for a total of 87 sets. If each set cost 20$, that's 1700$. Two years later in 2005, they released the ultimate uncut edition, which lasted for one year and got cut short. There were 9 sets, so if each also cost 20$, that's an additional 180$. Followed by that in 2007 was the orange sets, which cost around 25$ each and lasted from 2007-2009 for an additional 225$. Only half a year later, they start releasing the dragon boxes for 40$ a set, bringing the total cost to 280$ for all seven sets.

If anyone bought all of the above, they would've at the very least spent 2400$. That number goes up even further when you take Kai into account. To add a truckload of salt to the rotting injury, they started releasing the level sets ONE MONTH after the dragon boxes. You'd have trouble convincing someone to buy a shorter series twice, yet they asked fans to buy this near 300 episode show not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, not five times (Kai), but SIX times. Of course that didn't stop them from releasing it an additional 3 times, with probably more to come.

Kai, compared to the other releases, was an actual new product (in a way), so if it played any role in the level sets' downfall, it would've been the smallest.
ABED wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:47 amI do find it a little weird that someone can't get into the Kai dub.
I think what's weird is saying they can't get into it because it's worse than Z's. If you can't get into it because you have too much nostalgia for the original, that's fine, but to say it's worse is factually wrong. Your taste may not line up with something for a reason other than it being bad, so I don't know why fans use that to justify not getting into Kai (or anything for that matter).
I do think it's worse in some ways, the censorship, distracting new animation and that horrible green tint in the Buu arc both come to mind.
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Re: Can't get into Kai

Post by Rory » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:50 am

Planetnamek wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:59 amI do think it's worse in some ways, the censorship, distracting new animation and that horrible green tint in the Buu arc both come to mind.
You're misunderstanding what they're saying. Censorship, New animation, and green tint have nothing to do with the dub's quality, which is what Matches Malone is referring to.
They're saying that the quality of what FUNimation has provided is better, not what Toei provided. The Kai dub has a more accurate translation, meaning characters are more faithful to the source material (No "I am the hope of the universe" here). The actors are now far more seasoned, so the line-reads aren't quite as cringe inducing as they were before and since they're more familiar with the source material they aren't trying to figure out who they're playing as they perform (i.e Chris' Vegeta moving away from a Drummond impression as the series goes on). On top of all this, the direction on the whole is more consistent. For the majority of Kai 1.0 you just get the idea that everyone is on the same page, trying their best to do a solid adaptation of the Dragon Ball Z anime.

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