General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.

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Valkyreo
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General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Valkyreo » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm

Hi, hope you all are doing great! Just recently found out about this forum, needless to say i'm a bit late to the party! :wink:

Anyways, recently i remembered this series from my younger days and decided to rewatch it again. So i've discovered the Kai version and decided to go with that only to get dissapointed. Yes, the voice acting is more serious but it lacks the charm, the story seemed rushed because all the filler was cut out. I understand that this was Akira's original vision but that doesn't make it better. Also, music is incredibly boring and forgettable to my suprise, this is probably the only case where American music wins. It just has so much more character and has that 80-90s techno-rock dark sound. Incredible how much the music changes the vibe and atmosphere of the whole story.

So i decided to go and do some research on the original Z and after a lot of information i'm still left with some question marks above my head and was hoping to get some help here!

1 - the version i watched when i was a Kid was over the Cable TV on European Cartoon Network. I remember that the early episodes had different voice actors. Vegeta sounded a lot more evil. Which dub is this?

2 - i'm not sure which music played but i'm aware there were a few composers, Nathan Jonhson in earlier episodes and then Bruce F. in later (and also some re-release added Bruce F. music instead of Nathan J. and was misplaced at times?). But there were some other composers also. So I'm wondering which version has Nathan J., which one has Bruce F. and which one has the other guys?

3 - also, how do i know it's uncut version and was such version even released?

4 - I'm also aware that no release is perfect and each one is flawed BUT, if i had to choose i would go with: early episodes with old dub (whichever that was), switched back to newer dub in the later episodes with both music included. So what i mean no re-release with re dub or replaced music. And uncut if possible.

Thanks in advance!

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Planetnamek » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:07 pm

1- That would be the Ocean dub, Funimation started out with them for episodes 1-53(with some episodes being mostly edited out to the point that it went from the original run of 67 episodes down to 53) but after Saban decided to get out of the syndication business they had to replace them with their own in-house voice cast. Later on Westwood managed to get the Ocean group back and had them start off from episode 108(never quite understood why they never bothered dubbing episodes 54-107), that series mostly used music from video games like Monster Rancher and Mega Man, though later on they did get their own original music.

2-Ron Wasserman was the music composer for the days when Saban was syndicating the show(despite many mistakenly crediting Shuky Levy). After Saban left the syndication business entirely and the show moved over to CN, Funimation started doing everything in-house for DBZ from 1999-2003 and that's when Bruce Faulconer was doing the soundtrack, later on him and Funi got into legal battles, which led to Funimation hiring Nathan Johnson to do the score for the Ultimate Uncut redub of episodes 1-67(this redub was done in order to maintain consistency by getting the in-house cast to record the episodes that were originally done with the Ocean cast)

3-You know it's uncut because it says so on the front of the DVDs(the VHS tapes got released in two versions-edited and uncut and it would say which version it was on the back).

4-The Pioneer DVD sets are your best legal way of watching the Ocean dub(Rock the Dragon box set is really pricey so I wouldn't get that unless you've got plenty of money to spare) and for the in-house dub your best is the singles, though some of them are getting up there in price so if you've got a VHS player i'd say go for the tapes whenever you get to a single that runs into the above-25-dollars range.

I hope this answers your questions.
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Danfun64 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:17 am

Planetnamek wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:07 pm [The Westwood dub] mostly used music from video games like Monster Rancher and Mega Man
Well, you got that half right. The Mega Man stuff came from the cartoon, not any of the video games... least of all the 8 bit and 16 bit ones. I don't know what the situation with Monster Rancher is.
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:45 am

Valkyreo wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm Hi, hope you all are doing great! Just recently found out about this forum, needless to say i'm a bit late to the party! :wink:
Better late than never. :)
Valkyreo wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm Anyways, recently i remembered this series from my younger days and decided to rewatch it again. So i've discovered the Kai version and decided to go with that only to get dissapointed. Yes, the voice acting is more serious but it lacks the charm, the story seemed rushed because all the filler was cut out. I understand that this was Akira's original vision but that doesn't make it better. Also, music is incredibly boring and forgettable to my suprise, this is probably the only case where American music wins. It just has so much more character and has that 80-90s techno-rock dark sound. Incredible how much the music changes the vibe and atmosphere of the whole story.
Kai is a bit of a mess and a mixed bag, and I don't think it really is closer to Akira Toriyama's original vision, and even if it was, I agree that that doesn't necessarily make it better. Not all filler is bad, after all, and I don't think Kai did that good a job at cutting it anyway.

Some in-depth talk of this in here:
But, really, all else is just minor nitpicks, in regards to Kai being "closer to Toriyama's vision", when you consider that Kai skips the entire first 194 chapters of the 520-chapter manga (there was no DB vs Z split in the manga; it was all one run). And initially, it skipped the last 163 too (the Boo sagas), only coming back to it a little later to do a cheaper, crappier, more filler-y version (for which the dub also decreased in quality, interestingly).

If you really want something closer to Toriyama's vision, and/or you want a faster-paced version of the show, you should read the manga. The 3-in-1s and VizBigs are solid ways to read. Just be sure you start from the actual beginning; much as there's a temptation to skip to Z, doing so is akin to skipping Fellowship Of The Ring when reading Lord Of The Rings. (For reference, in this comparison, Dr Slump would be The Hobbit. If you don't know what Doctor Slump is... Actually, this post is already far too long, you can google that yourself :lol:)
And of course, by reading the manga, you can imagine whatever voices you prefer on the characters, and listen to whichever score you prefer, provided your PC or phone is with you while you read. :)
Valkyreo wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm So i decided to go and do some research on the original Z and after a lot of information i'm still left with some question marks above my head and was hoping to get some help here!
Boy did you come to the right place. :)
Valkyreo wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm 1 - the version i watched when i was a Kid was over the Cable TV on European Cartoon Network. I remember that the early episodes had different voice actors. Vegeta sounded a lot more evil. Which dub is this?
This was the original dub Funimation did in 1996-1998, often erroneously referred to as "The Ocean dub", recorded at Ocean Studios, using a Vancouver-based cast of professional voice actors. It was quite notably heavily edited (its 53-episode run was comprised of the contents of the first 66½ episodes of uncut Z), and it was distributed and partially produced by Saban, who also provided the score through an independent contractor working for them, Ron Wasserman (though Saban deliberately mis-attributed it to Shuki Levy). Scripts were quite inaccurate and goofy (and yet Funimation still reused them when they did their uncut redub of Z 1-67 years later :lol:). The Canadian cast here had previously worked with Funimation just a year earlier to do the first 13 episodes (and first movie) of Dragon Ball, and the scripting was a lot better and more accurate, but their distribution partner got them a raw deal, so ratings were crap, and Funi thought DBZ's more action-packed beginning would be an easier sell to American children. During the dubbing of Z, the Vancouver cast also did uncut dubs of the first three Z movies, which are considered by many to be the best dubbing Dragon Ball has ever received (the scripts are pretty top-notch, being both accurate and natural-sounding, and the performances are really excellent).

Anyway, Saban changed their lineup in '98/'99 and dropped DBZ after two (very, very successful) seasons in American syndication. Toonami/Cartoon Network picked it up in 1999, and reaired these episodes forever, also eventually (later in '99) requesting more episodes. Funimation wanted to save money, so they fired their cast and hired replacement amateur actors from the local area of their Texas HQ. The American Funimation cast did a terrible job (and the scripts went down the toilet), but they slowly improved, eventually being pretty good by the time they dubbed Kai, especially with a few iffy original casting choices (such as Freeza) being replaced with more fitting actors.

The Canadian cast didn't go away, though; if you watched DBZ in the UK or Canada, the Canadian cast came back thanks to an alternate dub produced by Westwood Media and Ocean Studios, using the same scripts as Funimation were using in the USA. They skipped 50 episodes, so those aired in those territories dubbed by Funimation (and Canada stuck with Funimation for a further ~60 after that), but all remaining episodes were dubbed with the Canadian cast.
A Canadian dub of Kai also exists, but has yet to air. DB and GT were also dubbed in Canada, but using far more accurate scripts than Funimation, but they used yet another different cast, based in Calgary. It's known that the Canadian dub of Kai uses actors from both the original Vancouver group, and the later Calgary group.
Valkyreo wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm 2 - i'm not sure which music played but i'm aware there were a few composers, Nathan Jonhson in earlier episodes and then Bruce F. in later (and also some re-release added Bruce F. music instead of Nathan J. and was misplaced at times?). But there were some other composers also. So I'm wondering which version has Nathan J., which one has Bruce F. and which one has the other guys?
Right.

So, the Japanese score of Dragon Ball and Z was composed by Shunsuke Kikuchi, then GT was Akihito Tokunaga.
For the other scores...
  • The replacement score for the original Canadian-recorded dub of DB episodes 1-13 and the first movie was composed by Peter Berring.
  • The replacement score for the Saban dub of DBZ's first two seasons was composed by Ron Wasserman. He tried to get in touch with Funimation after the Saban dub was canned, but it seems they didn't return his calls.
  • The replacement score for Funimation's in-house dub of Z from season 3 onwards was composed by Team Faulconer (Bruce Faulconer is credited as the main guy, but he did very little of the actual composing, despite his eagerness to take credit for it all; other guys working at the company, such as Julius Dobos, Mike Smith, and Scott Morgan, did most of the actual work). Team Faulconer was dropped after Z because of arising difficulties between Funimation and Team Faulconer.
  • The replacement score for Funimation's in-house dub of GT was composed by Mark Menza. He also worked on a few of the movies.
  • The replacement score for Funimation's in-house redub of Z episodes 1-67 was composed by Nathan Johnson. He also worked on a few of the movies.
  • The replacement score for the second Canadian dub of DBZ was mostly made up of library music Ocean had lying around from shows like Mega Man and Monster Rancher, composed by the guys at Anitunes (Tom Keenlyside, David Iris, and John Mitchell), which Ocean would arrange in places they felt fitted the mood of the show during editing, but as the run went on, not only did more shows' libraries become available for use, but Anitunes composed a lot of pieces specifically for DBZ in the Boo arc.
If you watched Dragon Ball in the USA, then you'll find what you saw on TV was the Ron Wasserman score, the Team Faulconer score, and maybe the Mark Menza score. Funi's dub of OG DB kept its original Japanese score.
If you watched in the UK or Canada, you'll find what you saw on TV was the Ron Wasserman score, the Team Faulconer score, and the Anitunes score. The Canadian dubs of DB and GT both kept their original Japanese scores.
Valkyreo wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm 3 - also, how do i know it's uncut version and was such version even released?
Every home release except for the original DVD singles of the Saiyan and Namek sags of DBZ, and the "Rock The Dragon" box set, are uncut. There are also some edited DVD singles of the movies, but they are clearly marked on the box art.
Though note that "Uncut" is slightly deceptive, as Funimation's dub scripts for their pre-Kai dubs tended to censor the dialogue quite heavily, especially in early OG DB. So, while you're getting "Uncut" however you watch, you're not getting an uncensored experience unless you watch in Japanese with subtitles.
Valkyreo wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm 4 - I'm also aware that no release is perfect and each one is flawed BUT, if i had to choose i would go with: early episodes with old dub (whichever that was), switched back to newer dub in the later episodes with both music included. So what i mean no re-release with re dub or replaced music. And uncut if possible.

Thanks in advance!
Right.

So, probably your best bet is to try to buy the original DVD singles of Z. They come somewhat affordably these days, since they're a bit inconvenient to collect, but you may have trouble getting ahold of every single one. But, this will give you the best experience given what you've requested.
However, I will strongly recommend that you first pick up the first Season DVD of OG Dragon Ball, and give that a watch-through. See if it's your thing. Dragon Ball isn't just a prequel to DBZ, it was the first 194 chapters of content Toriyama wrote, it was the first 153 episodes Toei put out, there was no Z separation in the manga, Toei only did it because they were switching some staff around, and wanted a boost in ratings from a new "Episode 1", and they saw the timeskip after the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament storyline as a great moment to put the split. But DBZ episode 1 aired the very next week from DB episode 153, and it continues the tone of that last storyline of DB. Because ultimately, they are really one show.

But, do what you wish. If you want to watch OG DB, the Season DVDs are perfectly serviceable. Picture quality will be quite poor (very smudgy and blurry), but perfectly watchable, and it will include both the dub and the original Japanese version, so not only will you have the dub, but if you get curious about the Japanese version, you can easily try it out just by switching audio tracks and turning the subtitles on. The only problem is pretty much all the insert songs are replaced with silence; usually they add made-up dialogue to smooth this over a little.
Since you want the original dub of Z's first two seasons, you'll find that's an edited dub, there's no uncut option there. Not a big deal, if you're watching dubbed, you have to accept it's not an accurate rendering of the original Japanese version, and just watch whatever version brings you the most joy. For many, myself included, that is the original Saban dub. So, you won't be able to switch to a Japanese track there (and you'll have no option for the original Japanese score), but you'll have the original dub you remember watching. :)

However, there is a caveat here. After the Saban dub's run, you will be switching to Funimation's early dubbing work. But that is better than the alternative, of switching to their partial re-dub, and I'll tell you why:
There are two ways to watch the in-house Funimation dub of seasons 3+. There's either the original version from the original DVD singles, or there's the "Remastered" dub. The "Remastered" dub, they re-recoreded about half the dialogue in the Freeza sagas, and about a third of it in the Androids sagas. The idea was to improve their early work, and create consistency with their uncut redub of DBZ episodes 1-67. But they did not do a good job by any stretch of the imagination, and you should not watch this version, even though it does include both the US replacement and original Japanese scores, while the original release only included the US replacement from Team Faulconer.
In-depth reasoning here:
Suffice it to say, if you must watch DBZ seasons 3+ dubbed, you really should watch either the original Funi dub, or the Canadian alternate dub. But the Canadian dub was never released on home video, so... You're stuck with the Funi dub on the original DVD singles.
You could always switch to Kai when you get to the end of the original Saban dub if the poor acting from Funi's original dub bothers you, but if you're not a fan of Kai (and rightfully so, it's honestly a mess of a show), then you don't really have that option. Sorry.

Speaking of "Sorry"... Apologies for this post being so long. There was a lot of ground to cover here. :lol:
Please do ask for clarification if anything here was unclear! :)
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Valkyreo » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:36 am

Whoa, that's a lot of information that needs to sink in, really appreciate your effort on this!

I will definetly hear your advice and check out Dragon Ball! As for the Z, before making any purchases i will go with ''try before you buy'', i think i need to check all the stuff before i decide to invest money. Rock The Dragon is quite expensive but that's the ultimate version for me, at least those 53 episodes! Il have to start scouting for that! The single dvds are definetly going to be pain but there is some fun into collecting!

Meanwhile, any idea where i could get ''try before you buy'' version of 54 and onwards episodes from Funmation? And i'm talking the version from back in the day (not the Orange Bricks, Blu Ray remasters etc) but the one which wasnt altered, re dubed or changed music.

Btw i did some research before on all the releases, i have looked at the sample of these remasters, they really look horrible and washed out. Il rather watch the original SD stuff on my HD tv, still looks better.

As for the whole Faulconer situation, i'm aware of that from before. I do follow Morgan guy on youtube.

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:36 pm

Valkyreo wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:36 am Whoa, that's a lot of information that needs to sink in, really appreciate your effort on this!
Cheers, man. :)
It is a lot, but that should be everything you need. Unless I forgot something. Which I probably did. :lol:
Valkyreo wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:36 am I will definetly hear your advice and check out Dragon Ball! As for the Z, before making any purchases i will go with ''try before you buy'', i think i need to check all the stuff before i decide to invest money. Rock The Dragon is quite expensive but that's the ultimate version for me, at least those 53 episodes! Il have to start scouting for that! The single dvds are definetly going to be pain but there is some fun into collecting!
Rock The Dragon is the same contents as the original "Saiyan Conflict" and "Namek Saga" DVD singles, but in poorer video quality, and a far more expensive box.
There is a minor thing about episodes 1 and 2, but the RTD set tends to go for more money than it's worth these days, really, so it's not worth it.
The RTD set does also include the first three Z movies, but the first two are the uncut Pioneer dubs... But in the form of their TV edits, so it kinda screws them up. It does include the until-then-unreleased version of the Saban version of Tree Of Might, which aired alongside season 2, but the uncut Pioneer dub of that movie is way better, and again, with the prices RTD goes for, it's not worth it just to get the other version of Tree Of Might.

I suggest you take a look at the Kanzenshuu home video guide for info on the DVD singles. Though it looks like they don't list info on the RTD set... Still, as I say, its contents are the same as the contents of the first two series of DVD singles, but in poorer quality.

Though, if you can get RTD for a decent price, less than you'd pay for the Saiyan and Namek DVD singles, sure, go for it.
Valkyreo wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:36 am Btw i did some research before on all the releases, i have looked at the sample of these remasters, they really look horrible and washed out. Il rather watch the original SD stuff on my HD tv, still looks better.
Yeah. The "HD" remasters are really terrible; the standard-def versions are way better. :)
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Valkyreo » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:03 pm

Lol, and here i thought that ''Rock The Dragon'' was the best release with Ocean Dub, back to square 1! :D

Thanks for the provided link, definetly gonna scout for the Madman release, the colours are really nicer!

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Valkyreo » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:22 pm

Ohh and one more thing, would it be possible to link me how do these Madman Singles DVD's looks like? Just an example so i can be more precise in my search!

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:51 pm

Valkyreo wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:02 pm I understand that this was Akira's original vision but that doesn't make it better. Also, music is incredibly boring and forgettable to my suprise, this is probably the only case where American music wins.
It claims to be Akira’s original version but it reduced the first 194 chapters to a recap and still keeps in scenes exclusive to the Z anime that weren’t in the manga (even more so in the Boo saga where probably half the filler was still left in)

As far as the music goes it really depends on which version you’re watching. The official release for the first 52 episodes had two different scores. The Yamamoto score (that sounds more grand and bombastic and modern Hollywood) which was replaced because the composer had been caught plagiarizing including from then recent big movie blockbusters like Terminator Salvation and Avatar. The second score which appears in 53-98 and re releases of the first 52 episodes is the original Shunsuke Kikuchi score which is far far more subdued and classic feeling to it. Kai uses the score fairly poorly and you don’t get a good feel for it unless you watch Dragon Ball (whose funimation dub was their only pre-Kai dub to have retained the score) or Z’s season sets or blue ray or FunimationNow streams which all restore the original Kikuchi score to the Z dub (the Johnson/Faulconer music is an option on the home releases)
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:07 pm they had to replace them with their own in-house voice cast.
They never had to replace them. It was just a cost cutting measure. It wasn’t we can’t afford this subcontractor anymore (Ian Corlette even said BLT and Ocean were hired by Funimation because of low rates) it was just cheaper to not pay any subcontracting fees and since Barry Watson would fly from Texas to Vancouver to oversee production it cut cost on air fare as well.
never quite understood why they never bothered dubbing episodes 54-107),
Because the tv dub had already aired episode 54-107 with the Funi cast in the markets that received the Westwood dub.

Basically

US and Australia (and I think New Zeeland);
Funi/Ocean/Saban dub for first 53 episodes. Funi in house dub episode 54-276.

United Kingdom: Funi/Ocean/Saban dub for episode 1-53, Funi in-house dub episode 54-107. Ocean/Westwood/AB Group dub episode 108-276

And I think Canada was still getting the in house Funi dub until the Cell Games?

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Planetnamek » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:24 pm

Oh i'm sure it was a cost-cutting measure, but I was under the impression the one of the reasons the Ocean cast couldn't return is because Saban abruptly pulled out of the syndication business and left Funimation high and dry.
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:00 pm

Saban wasn’t fronting the bill for Ocean. Funimation was. Their business arrangement with Saban and Ocean were two separate things. Funimation had been outsourcing voice work to Vancouver for Dragon Ball before they partnered with Saban to distribute Z. Funimation could have continued using the Ocean cast without Saban as distributor it was just cheaper.

I have no idea if Saban dropped Funimation or vice versa but regardless Funimation was able to get the show moved to Toonami with in 3 months of the last season 2 episode airing on tv.

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:51 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:24 pm Oh i'm sure it was a cost-cutting measure, but I was under the impression the one of the reasons the Ocean cast couldn't return is because Saban abruptly pulled out of the syndication business and left Funimation high and dry.
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:00 pm I have no idea if Saban dropped Funimation or vice versa but regardless Funimation was able to get the show moved to Toonami with in 3 months of the last season 2 episode airing on tv.
Saban dropped Funimation from airing in syndication. I'm fairly sure that, in the end, their day-to-day role in the show was simply syndicating it, and acting as a go-between for Ron Wasserman to score it, and Funi to get it scored. Though I imagine in the early days of producing DBZ, they advised on what kind of editing to do, etc.

Anyway, Saban's lineup changed, and they decided to focus on in-house stuff because it was cheaper, so despite it doing very well, DBZ was dropped. But because it was so successful, Funi didn't have a hard time finding another outlet for it; Toonami picked it up pretty quick.

But Funi were cheap, and with the clean break happening, and people desperate for more, they took the chance to cut the cast and do things cheaper. I've heard it suggested by one of the actors that one reason for the cast being cut was that the actors were demanding that they get paid for screams, and Funi were refusing to do it (IIRC one actor from the Saban run said Funi were paying them a couple of dollars per line, but screams, grunts, etc. didn't count as lines). Presumably if they'd gone on, they would've had to actually pay the actors for screams, and so to not do that, and also to save money on outsourcing and flying, they moved it in-house.
I'm fairly sure the Westwood dub paid the actors for screams, and yet accounts from the time say that Funi's dub was significantly more expensive than Westwood's for stations to air (allegedly Funi charged Cartoon Network something in the millions for "season 5" of DBZ. I'm sceptical of the actual amount quoted as I've yet to dig up a source on it, but it is generally sort of "known" that Funi charged a lot of money, and Westwood's was cheaper, despite Westwood using the Ocean cast, and probably paying them a lot better than Funi did... Assuming these accounts are true, it would certainly explain why so many territories elected to go with the alternate dub).
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:51 pm

Saban dropped Funimation from airing in syndication. I'm fairly sure that, in the end, their day-to-day role in the show was simply syndicating it, and acting as a go-between for Ron Wasserman to score it, and Funi to get it scored. Though I imagine in the early days of producing DBZ, they advised on what kind of editing to do, etc.Anyway, Saban's lineup changed, and they decided to focus on in-house stuff because it was cheaper, so despite it doing very well, DBZ was dropped. But because it was so successful, Funi didn't have a hard time finding another outlet for it; Toonami picked it up pretty quick.
Barry Watson all but said the other dimension was Saban's idea but as far as I am aware it was a suggestion and Funimation rolled with it. They could have gone with otherworld or something better they just couldn't say die or kill. It's like the infamous parachutes lines. Saban told them to remove the scene of Nappa blowing up a helicopter that clearly had people in it and the parachutes line was Funimation's solution to keep the scene (they should have just kept it) Saban's restrictions were ridiculous but Funimation would often come with equally ridiculous work arounds. Like they could have wiped the ogre's shirts clean and referred to the place as the underworld or hades (or skip the episode entirely because the episode ends back where it started) but HFIL (Home For Infinite Losers) was their solution. For whatever reason Funimation gets off scott free with those episodes with fans blaming the problem with those two seasons on Saban or Ocean even though it was ultimately Funimation's product including stuff like Goku blaming Vegeta for Granda Gohan's death and Bardock the brilliant scientist. And of course once Funimation decided to use their own cast the quality of the show got so much worse. I have no clue how the writing got worse (and to be fair there was some cringe af dialog and punch up jokes during those syndicated days but it turned up to 11 for season 3) since it was basically the same writing staff starting out. Maybe Ocean got rid of some of the dumber lines during the ADR process or maybe there was pressure to make the show "funnier and more hip and with it" once it started doing gangbusters on Toonami

(IIRC one actor from the Saban run said Funi were paying them a couple of dollars per line, but screams, grunts, etc. didn't count as lines). Presumably if they'd gone on, they would've had to actually pay the actors for screams, and so to not do that, and also to save money on outsourcing and flying, they moved it in-house.
AFAIK Funimation paid Ocean a subcontracting fee and Ocean paid their actors. (Ian Corlett's interview on DBZ Uncensored at least suggested his beef was with Ocean paying their actors shit not Funimation and he got along with Barry Watson and most of the Funimation guys). It wouldn't surprise me if Funimation paid its own cast even worse though (in addition to saving money by not having a third party ADR company to do the dubbing or those flights from Dallas to Vancouver and back).

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:15 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm I have no clue how the writing got worse (and to be fair there was some cringe af dialog and punch up jokes during those syndicated days but it turned up to 11 for season 3) since it was basically the same writing staff starting out. Maybe Ocean got rid of some of the dumber lines during the ADR process
Ocean weren't actually involved in production. The Ocean studio was where it was recorded, and they used Vancouver actors who were known for working with Ocean, and they hired Vancouver-based scriptwriters to work with them, but Ocean were really not involved. They did distribute the show to Canada, though. That's really it, though.

I think one reason the writing got worse was probably that they jettisoned some of the Vancouver writers (though Terry Klassen was still involved, possibly as late as GT), worked off of worse base scripts (I don't think Steve Simmons got involved until they had finished dubbing the Ginyu saga, at least?), and I think Barry Watson got far more involved with the scripting. And I think the Saban run had been almost entirely scripted in Vancouver, but season 3 onwards, they had writers in Texas doing a lot of the work. And just like the actors, the writers were... Not top-of-the-line, let's say.
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm or maybe there was pressure to make the show "funnier and more hip and with it" once it started doing gangbusters on Toonami
It did gangbusters in syndication too. I'll link this article again; it had >85% coverage of the USA, and frequently topped ratings for a weekly syndicated show, especially among kids. Toonami didn't save a doomed show by giving it its first success, they grabbed up a hot property after its first home went a cheaper way (Saban had Power Rangers and Digimon, which they were doing in-house, thus making tons of money, so they didn't think they needed DBZ too).
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm AFAIK Funimation paid Ocean a subcontracting fee and Ocean paid their actors. (Ian Corlett's interview on DBZ Uncensored at least suggested his beef was with Ocean paying their actors shit not Funimation and he got along with Barry Watson and most of the Funimation guys). It wouldn't surprise me if Funimation paid its own cast even worse though (in addition to saving money by not having a third party ADR company to do the dubbing or those flights from Dallas to Vancouver and back).
Ocean were not subcontracted.

As Ian Corlett said in a Tweet in November:
Ian Corlett wrote:Something I’d like to correct here. This term “ocean dub” is wrong. When Funimation first came to us in Vancouver we produced with Josanne B Lovick productions & recorded at #dickandrogers. Even when we continued producing, Ocean was simply the recording studio in the beginning.
It wasn't an Ocean producer, but they did get local producers to handle the paperwork and pay the actors, though I'm not sure who was working on the Saban dub. Wasn't someone at Ocean. Could've been that Barry Watson was doing it himself when he flew out? Though that'd probably be unlikely.
Anyway, the way Corlett tells it in the Geekdom interview, it sounds like the screams was the main sticking point, and he butted heads with the producers over that, and basically decided "you're not paying me enough for this shit, I'm out"

When Ocean actually got involved for the Westwood dub, I'm fairly sure the actors were paid much better (at the very least, screams, grunts, etc. were counted as lines)... Though there's no reason to believe this was down to Ocean, because it easily could have been Westwood Media allocating more funds to paying the actors (since Westwood was based in Vancouver, and by all accounts, Westwood functioned as the producers of the dubs).

"Ocean dub" is entirely a misnomer for anything earlier than the Westwood dubs (and ironically, the Westwood dubs, despite having Ocean actually involved in production, were not recorded at the Ocean studio, at least not usually; basically all the recording was happening at Airwaves Sound instead). The 1995 Dragon Ball dub is the BLT, Dick & Rogers, Josanne B Lovick, or 1995 dub, and the 1996-1998 DBZ dub is the Saban dub. And collectively, the two dubs are the Vancouver Funimation dubs.
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:29 am

Robo4900 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:15 am I think one reason the writing got worse was probably that they jettisoned some of the Vancouver writers (though Terry Klassen was still involved, possibly as late as GT), worked off of worse base scripts (I don't think Steve Simmons got involved until they had finished dubbing the Ginyu saga, at least?), and I think Barry Watson got far more involved with the scripting. And I think the Saban run had been almost entirely scripted in Vancouver, but season 3 onwards, they had writers in Texas doing a lot of the work. And just like the actors, the writers were... Not top-of-the-line, let's say.
Chris Forbis and Chris Neel were the credited writers during the Saban days They were also the credited writers when the production moved to Texas. At some point Terry Klassen and Ward Perry (the sole credited writer for the Pioneer movies) names started appearing
Toonami didn't save a doomed show by giving it its first success, they grabbed up a hot property after its first home went a cheaper way (Saban had Power Rangers and Digimon, which they were doing in-house, thus making tons of money, so they didn't think they needed DBZ too).
I never said Dragon Ball Z did bad in syndication clearly it did well. But it also did even better on Toonami.
Ocean were not subcontracted.

As Ian Corlett said in a Tweet in November:
Ian Corlett"]Something I’d like to correct here. This term “ocean dub” is wrong. When Funimation first came to us in Vancouver we produced with Josanne B Lovick productions & recorded at #dickandrogers. Even when we continued producing, Ocean was simply the recording studio in the beginning.
Why did you leave the show? Was this your decision or someone else's? The generally accepted reason is that you could no longer do the show because of "other commitments," and I'm wondering if that's the truth.
Without blowing my own horn too hard, I'm very good at dubbing (speedy). But dubbing work is grueling. It's quite likely to sit in a dark booth for a full 8 hour day, grinding out multiple episodes of a given show. That's what DBZ was like. Honestly it all came down to $$. Especially when the project moved to the Ocean Group. They are notorious for chiseling and paying fractions of what actor's are paid elsewhere. To their credit, that's how they get the work. The Ocean group and I don't really see eye to eye. But I simply got tired. I drew the line on all dubbing work after that (at Ocean that is). Without going into the gory details, basically I asked for about $250 more per episode - and that's CANADIAN $$!! (I think that works out to about .29 cents US. no?). I guess my "other commitments" where to anything else willing to pay what I'm worth - and my sanity, of course.


It sounds like Ian is talking about the early Dragon Ball
dub which yeah Ocean wasn’t involved with at all. They probably had no creative involvement in those early Funi Z days (my mistake) but they were the ones paying the actors in 1996-1998.

ETA: The tweet Ian was responding to was referring to Curse of the Blood Rubies which yeah Ocean wasn’t involved with that or those first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball at all.

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:47 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:29 am It sounds like Ian is talking about the early Dragon Ball
dub which yeah Ocean wasn’t involved with at all. They probably had no creative involvement in those early Funi Z days (my mistake) but they were the ones paying the actors in 1996-1998.

ETA: The tweet Ian was responding to was referring to Curse of the Blood Rubies which yeah Ocean wasn’t involved with that or those first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball at all.
I mean, he outright said "Even when we continued producing, Ocean was simply the recording studio in the beginning", which refers to the Saban era.

Maybe Barry Watson switched some production duties to Ocean for season 2, and that's where the troubles arose? I dunno.
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Kakacarrottop » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:52 am

Robo4900 wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:51 pm
Planetnamek wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:24 pm Oh i'm sure it was a cost-cutting measure, but I was under the impression the one of the reasons the Ocean cast couldn't return is because Saban abruptly pulled out of the syndication business and left Funimation high and dry.
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:00 pm I have no idea if Saban dropped Funimation or vice versa but regardless Funimation was able to get the show moved to Toonami with in 3 months of the last season 2 episode airing on tv.
Saban dropped Funimation from airing in syndication. I'm fairly sure that, in the end, their day-to-day role in the show was simply syndicating it, and acting as a go-between for Ron Wasserman to score it, and Funi to get it scored. Though I imagine in the early days of producing DBZ, they advised on what kind of editing to do, etc.
Saban clearly had a big influence on the overall direction of the dub. Also, in the credits, all of the people listed in the various music roles (ie music editor, music engineer etc) were Saban guys involved in stuff like MMPR.
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- ShadowDude112 on Ocean's Kai dub

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:42 am

Kakacarrottop wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:52 am
Robo4900 wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:51 pm
Saban dropped Funimation from airing in syndication. I'm fairly sure that, in the end, their day-to-day role in the show was simply syndicating it, and acting as a go-between for Ron Wasserman to score it, and Funi to get it scored. Though I imagine in the early days of producing DBZ, they advised on what kind of editing to do, etc.
Saban clearly had a big influence on the overall direction of the dub. Also, in the credits, all of the people listed in the various music roles (ie music editor, music engineer etc) were Saban guys involved in stuff like MMPR.
Yes, I think Ron Wasserman's music was mixed and added to the show by Saban. He did say he send his tapes to Saban, not Funimation, so that sounds understandable.
Though note that, at the very least, Shuki Levy is credited despite having no involvement in the actual composition, so it's hard to tell if Saban weren't just crediting all their own in-house guys but having all the actual work aside from the mixing done by Wasserman.
Though given the particular sound the Saban dub has was never used again (the sort of intense sound with the compressed voices, etc.) in either the Westwood or in-house Funi dubs, I wouldn't be surprised if Saban's guys handled the sound mixing.
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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:41 am

Kakacarrottop wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:52 am
Saban clearly had a big influence on the overall direction of the dub. Also, in the credits, all of the people listed in the various music roles (ie music editor, music engineer etc) were Saban guys involved in stuff like MMPR.

Saban had a new score composed at Funimation’s request, yes. Saban’s only real big influence outside of that was the high end censorship. Barry Watson was overseeing the product and seemed to be the one that wanted the show to be “funnier” Had Saban done the show themselves it probably would have been pretty identical just with their own Los Angeles based talent pool. Saban may have acted as a guiding hand but ultimately the show was Funimation’s product even then. And really other than less censorship not much else changed when Funimation took complete control. The jokes just got even worse and the acting took a dive .

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Re: General questions about Dragon Ball Z

Post by Kakacarrottop » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:40 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:41 am
Kakacarrottop wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:52 am
Saban clearly had a big influence on the overall direction of the dub. Also, in the credits, all of the people listed in the various music roles (ie music editor, music engineer etc) were Saban guys involved in stuff like MMPR.

Saban had a new score composed at Funimation’s request, yes. Saban’s only real big influence outside of that was the high end censorship. Barry Watson was overseeing the product and seemed to be the one that wanted the show to be “funnier” Had Saban done the show themselves it probably would have been pretty identical just with their own Los Angeles based talent pool. Saban may have acted as a guiding hand but ultimately the show was Funimation’s product even then. And really other than less censorship not much else changed when Funimation took complete control. The jokes just got even worse and the acting took a dive .
Aside from nudity, the earlier Dragon Ball dub from 1995 didn't seem that censored compared to 96-98 era Z, even though it was still airing on the same networks in syndication, unlike the inhouse dub. If I recall correctly they used terms like "death" in the Dragon Ball dub.

If Saban were never in the picture there might have never been stuff like "the next dimension". That's a big difference in the overall creative direction of the product.
"I will literally dress as Goku and walk around jumping up and down, pretending to fly, in public if this ever gets an official release"

- ShadowDude112 on Ocean's Kai dub

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