Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

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Ghosty64
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Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

Post by Ghosty64 » Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:39 pm

I was watching Kai again recently, and I realized that it's actually quite blurry compared to the Dragon Boxes.

I have now learned from others that Q-TEC did a poor job at scanning Kai 1.0. Apparently the scanner was out-of-focus, and that's why it's blurry? There's still grain, so I can only assume the DNR is not heavy. I can only assume it's an out-of-focus scan, from what others have said.

I've taken to applying a small sharpening level (0.7) to try and counter this. I don't think it solves all the problems, but it helps a little bit.

I love the Kai dub, it's far superior to the Z Funi-dub, but it's getting hard to get over the footage now that I've seen better. (The Dragon Boxes).

Anyone use sharpness filters or alternative means to attempt correction for the Kai footage?
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Re: Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:19 pm

Ghosty64 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:39 pm I was watching Kai again recently, and I realized that it's actually quite blurry compared to the Dragon Boxes.

I have now learned from others that Q-TEC did a poor job at scanning Kai 1.0. Apparently the scanner was out-of-focus, and that's why it's blurry? There's still grain, so I can only assume the DNR is not heavy. I can only assume it's an out-of-focus scan, from what others have said.
Yes.

My understanding is that Q-TEC's method of reducing the grain is to scan out of focus, which gives a really, really blurry picture. I don't think this is purely a Q-TEC thing either. I seem to recall some talk of it being fairly popular among HD transfers of classic anime, but don't quote me on that.

I do wonder if this was also the case on the 35mm episodes (16mm episode, 35mm episode; courtesy of Ajay). They look sharp as a tack, so I do wonder if they were scanned in-focus but DNR'd (with a bit of sharpening).
Ghosty64 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:39 pm I've taken to applying a small sharpening level (0.7) to try and counter this. I don't think it solves all the problems, but it helps a little bit.

I love the Kai dub, it's far superior to the Z Funi-dub, but it's getting hard to get over the footage now that I've seen better. (The Dragon Boxes).

Anyone use sharpness filters or alternative means to attempt correction for the Kai footage?
I tried it a few times, years ago. You have to be careful about the level to which you apply it (aggressively sharpening blurry, DNR'd footage is how Funimation made their season & 30th anniversary Blu-rays of DBZ), but it can improve things a little. Though it will negatively affect the redraws and the OPs/EDs.
I don't really bother with it anymore.

Personally, I'd prefer to replace the footage with Dragon Box (maybe the Levels for 1-39?), if I could and/or if I had the time; that would fix the problem and eliminate the god-awful redraws. :lol:
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Re: Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

Post by Lightningexpose » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:57 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:19 pm My understanding is that Q-TEC's method of reducing the grain is to scan out of focus, which gives a really, really blurry picture. I don't think this is purely a Q-TEC thing either. I seem to recall some talk of it being fairly popular among HD transfers of classic anime, but don't quote me on that.
what the....

You're saying film scanner operators would intentionally scan a film out of focus to avoid grain? What on earth LOL

Are you one of those people who were dead set on "the reason kai looks blurry is because of dnr"? but now that you've finally accepted it's not DNR's fault, it's just mediocre scanning, your coping mechanism is to say "NO! the reason it's blurry is in fact because they don't want grain...that is why they scanned out of focus!! So I'm still correct! It's blurry because they hate grain!!!"

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Re: Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:33 pm

Lightningexpose wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:57 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:19 pm My understanding is that Q-TEC's method of reducing the grain is to scan out of focus, which gives a really, really blurry picture. I don't think this is purely a Q-TEC thing either. I seem to recall some talk of it being fairly popular among HD transfers of classic anime, but don't quote me on that.
what the....

You're saying film scanner operators would intentionally scan a film out of focus to avoid grain? What on earth LOL

Are you one of those people who were dead set on "the reason kai looks blurry is because of dnr"? but now that you've finally accepted it's not DNR's fault, it's just mediocre scanning, your coping mechanism is to say "NO! the reason it's blurry is in fact because they don't want grain...that is why they scanned out of focus!! So I'm still correct! It's blurry because they hate grain!!!"
I'm saying that, in a professional transfer of this material, I would assume the operators would have the basic competence to not scan it super out of focus, therefore (with what Kei has previously said about Japanese consumers generally not being a fan of grain, and with the general trend for HD transfers of film material to be degrained) why not assume it's deliberate? It's as good an explanation as any. :P

I'd appreciate it if you didn't attempt to put words in my mouth, though. I'm right here. You can just ask me for my take. We're all just here to chill and discuss this old anime, no need to antagonise me.
Also, I made this post nearly a month ago... Why bring this up now? :lol:
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Re: Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

Post by Lightningexpose » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:51 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:33 pm Also, I made this post nearly a month ago... Why bring this up now? :lol:
Because I clicked on the DB Kai part of the forum and this was the 2nd most recently active thread. I wasn't expecting to post here but saw a very weird take.
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:33 pm I'm saying that, in a professional transfer of this material, I would assume the operators would have the basic competence to not scan it super out of focus, therefore (with what Kei has previously said about Japanese consumers generally not being a fan of grain, and with the general trend for HD transfers of film material to be degrained) why not assume it's deliberate? It's as good an explanation as any. :P
Firstly, it's not "super out of focus"...it has more details of the xerox linework than the DBox (or level sets as well). It's just not as well focused as it should be. Criterion's BD encoding is kinda meh and not as good as it should be. Yes, companies are "professional" but not the best at things...crazy, right?

Also, thing you've got to understand is somebody who operates a film scanner is not immediately an expert on video quality or even the tech they're using. All it means is they are educated and have experience in how to safely handle film and successfully digitise it for someone else's (or their own) use. So, no, do not expect superb judgment of quality from someone just because they do it for work.

Okay, Japanese consumers don't like grain? So you assume, a "professional transfer" needing reduced grain would leave the operators (sitting comfortably in the digital era) thinking "hey, rather than use the filtering methods built into most industry-grade scanners or the huge variety of advanced DNR algorithms in restoration software, let's go full caveman style and purposely do a faulty scan?!" Come on brah.

This reply is getting long so I'll wait for your reply before giving you a more detailed breakdown of what's going on with Qtec's transferring.

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Re: Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:41 pm

Lightningexpose wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:51 pm Firstly, it's not "super out of focus"...it has more details of the xerox linework than the DBox (or level sets as well). It's just not as well focused as it should be. Criterion's BD encoding is kinda meh and not as good as it should be. Yes, companies are "professional" but not the best at things...crazy, right?

Also, thing you've got to understand is somebody who operates a film scanner is not immediately an expert on video quality or even the tech they're using. All it means is they are educated and have experience in how to safely handle film and successfully digitise it for someone else's (or their own) use. So, no, do not expect superb judgment of quality from someone just because they do it for work.

Okay, Japanese consumers don't like grain? So you assume, a "professional transfer" needing reduced grain would leave the operators (sitting comfortably in the digital era) thinking "hey, rather than use the filtering methods built into most industry-grade scanners or the huge variety of advanced DNR algorithms in restoration software, let's go full caveman style and purposely do a faulty scan?!" Come on brah.
Fair points.

I would still argue that, for a HD scan, it's super fucking blurry, though.
Lightningexpose wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:51 pm This reply is getting long so I'll wait for your reply before giving you a more detailed breakdown of what's going on with Qtec's transferring.
To be honest, I don't think it really matters. I'm kinda over the need to understand why incompetence and/or awful decisions get made in transferring Dragon Ball, so... Post a more in-depth thing if you like, though I'd suggest doing so in its own thread where it will be more visible. Me personally, right this second, I don't have any interest in reading such a thing. Sorry.
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Re: Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

Post by Lightningexpose » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:12 am

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:41 pm Fair points.

I would still argue that, for a HD scan, it's super fucking blurry, though.

To be honest, I don't think it really matters. I'm kinda over the need to understand why incompetence and/or awful decisions get made in transferring Dragon Ball, so... Post a more in-depth thing if you like, though I'd suggest doing so in its own thread where it will be more visible. Me personally, right this second, I don't have any interest in reading such a thing. Sorry.
Well, even if you're not interested now, next time someone asks about DB Kai/Qtec's blurriness, and I'm not around, you can give explaining properly a shot by referring back to the info here.

Here's another anime remastered by Qtec Image

As you can see, just like Kai, it's "super fucking blurry" (to me it's simply blurrier than it should be). But it has way more grain than Kai. That's because despite the blur issues, grain will still be registered. So, no, faulty scanning is not a grain reduction technique.

What you should notice in kai and the anime above if you look properly is that they have a vertical smear. THAT is most likely the big contributing factor in causing us to feel like we're watching something that's "out of focus". It's motion blur from the reel turning that's captured due to operator incompetence.

Right now you probably want to say "they're professionals, surely they'd catch it?!" But what I find funny, though, is that all the people in the DB fandom who talk like video experts have never noticed nor discussed how Kai has a vertical smear on it (16mm eps). Literally...the guys online who think they have a better understanding than Qtec, Funi and Toei don't catch or discuss it, so why should Qtec or Toei catch it?

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Re: Anyone watch Kai with sharpness filters?

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:25 pm

Lightningexpose wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:12 am Right now you probably want to say "they're professionals, surely they'd catch it?!" But what I find funny, though, is that all the people in the DB fandom who talk like video experts have never noticed nor discussed how Kai has a vertical smear on it (16mm eps). Literally...the guys online who think they have a better understanding than Qtec, Funi and Toei don't catch or discuss it, so why should Qtec or Toei catch it?
"People in the DB fandom who talk like video experts" aren't professionals whose job it is to work with this equipment. That's why the professionals should catch this type of thing. The fact they didn't should be a serious black mark on Q-TEC's record, assuming it was a mistake.

Again, I don't really care to dig deep into why this happened; as is always the case, it's some form of incompetence that you can only really theorise about.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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