Timeline Discussion

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:11 am

Do we all agree at least that there are two main divergencies in the time lines?

The first is Trunks coming back to kill Freeza. This seperates our timeline from the History of Trunks timeline.

And the second is Cell travelling back in time. This seperates our timeline from the timeline that the alternative Trunks gets killed by Cell. Because in both that timeline and the one he goes back to, there is no Cell, therefore no-one goes and destroys Gero's lab, therefore Trunks is surprised to see Cell turn up and is killed by him.

So, keeping this as SIMPLE as possible.

A: Goku kills Freeza. Heart Disease. Everyone dies. Trunks travels to timeline B. Trunks returns from past and kills #17, #18 and Cell. Trunks Special Timeline.

B: Our timeline. Trunks kills Freeza. Cell (from Timeline C) appears. Is killed. Everyone happy.

C: Same as A, except that alt-Trunks doesn't learn about Cell, and is killed by him on return from Theoretical Timeline D. Cell then travels to our timeline (B).

D: Never seen. Presumably same as B, except that Cell doesn't appear in present day. (He could appear in the future, but we have no way of knowing.)

Honestly, I think that a lot of the extra information in the daizenshuu and Dr Brief's guide just confuses things.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:17 am

Steve: Yeah, I seem to recall some kind of theory, somewhere, that a possible FIFTH timeline starts....

God, my head fucking hurts. Anyone happen to know a Doctor Brown... ?

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:19 am

Jerseymilk wrote:I'm sorry if I'm too stupid to completely understand this, but I just don't get the extra timeline, where did it come from?

Which extra, the fourth or fifth one?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:22 am

Doc Brown had it easy. Not only was there only one alternative timeline, but it occupied the same "space" as the present one. When stuff changed in the past there, it affected the present, rather than creating a new timeline.

This is more like the TNG episode "Parallels". Except here people are just jumping back and forth all over the place.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:59 am

To Psyliam: Thank-you for simplyfying it further for me. I understand it better now, although like VegEX, I also have a headache.

Actually your reference to the "Parallels" episode helped my get a better grasp on the theory. When in doubt, refer to Star Trek!

Professor Daravon · Post by **Professor Daravon** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:26 am

Christ, and people say Dragon Ball's plot is simplistic.

Actually, I never saw the fourth timeline before, and for a while as I was reading this thread I had a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around the concept. But it all makes pretty good sense, actually. At least, I think it does, but let me just make sure I've got it all worked out here with timelines 3 and 4 (or C and D, if you prefer).

Basically the only reason for timeline 4 is to provide an extra timeline for the Trunks from timeline 3 to travel to, correct? We have two time-traveling Trunks (how's that for alliteration?), one in timeline 1 and the other in timeline 3, and only one is traveling to timeline 2. Hence, timeline 4, which is where timeline 3 Trunks had been about to return to before being killed by Cell, because he had figured out how to destroy the Artificial Humans and he was going to tell the Z Senshi all about it. Timeline 4, in all likelihood, does not have Cell, because it is mostly identical to timeline 2, where Cell was killed in his infancy; and, unlike timeline 2, there is no Cell from an alternate timeline to pay a visit, as timeline 1 Cell is killed by Trunks in timeline 1 and timeline 3 Cell is killed by Gohan in timeline 2. If there's a timeline 5, then Cell may have come to timeline 4 from there, but...I definitely don't see timeline 5. Do I finally have this shit figured out?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:51 am

Although I get where you're all coming from, I'm quoting the daizenshuu that explains this, so it's not like I'm coming up with irrealistic hypotheses. In fact, it makes perfect sense.

Timeline 1: Manga/anime
763: Cell from timeline 3 arrives via time machine
764: Trunks (the mirai trunks we all love) from timeline 2 arrives, kills Freeza+co, gives Goku medicine when he arrives on Earth.
766: Birth of (Chibi) Trunks
767: Arrival of Androids, Cell attains Perfect Form, Cell Games
774: Boo revives
784: 28th budoukai

Timeline 2: Mirai Trunks' time
764: Goku comes back to Earth, kills Freeza+co, dies of heart disease
766: Birth of (Mirai) Trunks
767 Arrival of Androids, everybody but Gohan dies
780: Death of Gohan
784: Trunks goes back in time (into timeline 1's past)
785: Trunks destroys this timeline's Androids
788: Trunks destroys this timeline's Cell

Timeline 3: Cell's Time
All events up to the year 784 are the same as in Timeline 2
785: Trunks (this timeline) returns from timeline 4 with the blueprints of the remote control that deactivates the androids. He uses it to destroy them.
788: Cell (from this timeline and the one that achieves Perfect form in the manga) kills Trunks and uses the time machine to go back in time (into the manga's past).

Timeline 4: Unknown timeline
All events in this timeline up to 767 are the same as in the manga
767: Opening of Cell Games (diagram has pic of Perfect Cell here)
Outcome of Cell Games unknown

What most likely happened with Timeline 3's (Cell's) Trunks is that he decided to use the remote in his timeline BEFORE using it in timeline 4's. He was probably killed by Cell while preparing to return to timeline 4 to help out with the androids there. For some deranged reason, this Cell was sent into the manga's past.

Concerning timeline 5: Since the unknown 4th timeline is supposed to be the SAME as the manga's, and because Cell achieves perfect form in the same year as the Cell games as opposed to in 788, we know ANOTHER Cell from ANOTHER never mentioned timeline arrives in 763 via time machine. Ugh. Now MY head hurts.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:24 am

It's the timeline 4 stuff that gets me. The daizenshuu says that there's a Cell Games that take place at the same time as they did in our timeline, correct? Is that based on anything at all from the anime or manga? Or are they just guessing?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:45 am

Honestly, I've given up trying to understand. I'm counting on you all to figure it out.

*shoots self*

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:21 pm

Professor Daravon wrote:Do I finally have this shit figured out?

Sounds like it.

But we still can't seem to come to an agreement on whether there's four or five. I know it's the Daizenshuu that says five, and not a crazy hypothesis that came from mid-air. But the Daizenshuu's timelines seem overly complicated, and full of assumptions with little basis in the series. It seems easier to just go by what is said in only the manga and anime.

And actually, if there was a fifth timeline... T5 would be another alternate future, in which Cell kills Trunks and travels to T4, right? There would have to be a sixth timeline for the Trunks in T5 to travel back to and kill Freeza and stuff. Argh...

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:00 pm

Actually, there's a fair point. I think, if we added a fifth timeline, then we would have an infinite number of timelines repeating. If it was just Trunks and our timeline, things would be fine. But Cell coming from another one is what creates this recursive loop thingie.

I agree with just going by what TripleRach. The daizenshuu theory is great, but overly complicated with lots of theorised information. I think we should just go by the manga and anime. And if we do that, we have three timelines that we see (albiet one only for about 30 seconds), and another which we hear about. That's more than enough.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:45 pm

All four MUST exist. Even if you go just by the manga/anime. T3 Trunks goes into the past. We know that for a fact. If he does, and doesn't go into Mirai Trunks or the Manga's timeline, then he HAS to go into a fourth timeline.

As for the infinite timeline theory, remember that the manga's androids are weaker than Mirai Trunks' androids (for reasons never explained). It's possible that in this never mentioned fifth timeline that Trunks manages to destroy the androids on his own, and was only going back in time to give Goku the cure (but got killed by Cell who went into timeline 4 as an embryo).

Timeline 4 exists not as an educated guess by the daizenshuu, but as a further official explanation as to what happened with timeline 3 Trunks, as well as to explain that there exists a timeline exactly like the manga's only without a Mirai Trunks in it from when they find the blueprints. (Fanfic writers must have gone crazy with this timeline)

One last thing:
If you follow the manga/anime only there exist 3 mentioned timelines but 4 must logically exist.
If you follow the daizenshuu there exist 4 mentioned timelines but at least 5 must logically exist.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:10 pm

Question: If all this crap is alternate timelines, does that mean the movies are alternate universes?

**Gets flung into black hole by everybody else trying to comprehend this thread**

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:28 pm

Dayspring wrote:Timeline 4 exists not as an educated guess by the daizenshuu, but as a further official explanation as to what happened with timeline 3 Trunks, as well as to explain that there exists a timeline exactly like the manga's only without a Mirai Trunks in it from when they find the blueprints. (Fanfic writers must have gone crazy with this timeline).

I can understand that a fourth timeline has to exist. It is, after all, mentioned by Cell during his narration/exposition. It's just the whole extra "there was a Cell Games" thing in it that doesn't sit right with me, since it's not mentioned at all in the show.

I suppose, at this point, it boils down to how "canon" (hnng! Star Trek argument memories cause pain) the daizenshuu are. Are they the same as, say the Star Trek Tech manuals? Is everything in them absolutly, 100% true and official? Or are we only taking the show and comic as "canon", and the daizenshuu are just extra possible background information?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:46 pm

So what have we got so far? For the life of me, I can't combine all of this info into something even remotely logical... *cries*

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:22 pm

Well, you could just print the Daizenshuu information. Or would you rather have just the facts as stated in the show?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:25 pm

I want everything that we've come up with, both show-based and daizenshuu-based. If we have to explain that there's two theories, so be it. I want it all~~!!!!!1

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:26 pm

Dunno about the Star Trek stuff, but the daizenshuu are 100% official. If you stick the manga as official then you have to ignore the anime. It's like that. Timeline 4's Cell Games are just there to say there was no mirai Trunks in one reality, so that timeline's outcome is different from ours. (No USSJ2 Trunks means Vegeta got killed by Perfect form Cell before the games. It's telling you to use your imagination for this timeline, but that there was STILL A CELL GAMES IN IT)

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:41 pm

But it's basing that on...what? Who wrote the daizenshuu anyway?

Anyway, Dayspring might as well do the daizenshuu stuff, since you can't really argue about what's printed there.

As for the anime, let me have a think...

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:00 pm

Written by (in collaboration, of course) Bird Studios, TOEI animation, Shueisha. (Not sure about the last one since it's also the only one that took credit for translating my version into french).

They're based on the manga and anime and Toriyama himself (though T-sama was probably refferenced directly only by the interviews in them)

Kanzenshuu

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