Timeline Discussion

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:06 pm

Oops, skipped over EX's post before replying.

I want everything that we've come up with, both show-based and daizenshuu-based. If we have to explain that there's two theories, so be it. I want it all~~!!!!!1

There are FOUR Timelines mentioned in BOTH. ONLY. It's just you can assume logically that there are at least 5 if you go only by the daisenzhuu (because of the Cell games in timeline 4).

So officially, NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT (Manga, Anime and Daizenshuu), there are 4.
Fan-boys using logic gets you at least 5.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:10 pm

I'm not sure I follow this idea of a fifth timeline. How exactly do the cell games create a new timeline?

I don't care if it's just fanboy logic, I want to get the whole story clear in my head.

Post by **TripleRach** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:49 pm

Zackarotto wrote:I'm not sure I follow this idea of a fifth timeline. How exactly do the cell games create a new timeline?

I don't care if it's just fanboy logic, I want to get the whole story clear in my head.

If Cell appears in the fourth timeline, it's because he came from another (fifth) timeline where he killed Trunks and stole his time machine.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:50 pm

I'm not sure I follow this idea of a fifth timeline. How exactly do the cell games create a new timeline?

In the fourth timeline Cell achieves Perfect form and holds the Cell games at the same time as in the manga/anime timeline. This could ONLY take place if a Cell came from the future of another timeline OTHER than the mentioned 4, since we know what happens to Cell in all 4 timelines.

Timeline 1: Destroyed by Krillin+Trunks while he's in embryonic form
Timeline 2: Destroyed by Trunks 3 years after Trunks destroys his own androids.
Timeline 3: Goes into manga/anime (Timeline 1), achieves Perfect Form and gets destroyed by SSJ2 Gohan.
Timeline 4: Would still be in embryonic form or be destroyed by Krillin and Trunks before the Cell games take place.

So where did this Perfect Cell come from that he's holding the Cell Games? Logically a non-mentioned fifth timeline.

PLEASE TELL ME YOU UNDERSTAND!!! Nobody else does and seems to think I'm pulling at straws. Well I am, BUT THOSE STRAWS ARE REAL DAMMIT!!!

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:30 pm

If the timeline 3 Cell is killed by SSJ2 Gohan, that was the one holding the Cell games, right? Because Gohan killed him during the Cell games... Damn it, I still don't see it.

Can't there just be 3 TLs? 1 is the one we follow, 1 is Future Trunk's TL, and one is where Cell manages to kill trunks and take his Time Machine. Why is it that Cell would come from a fourth TL to the 3rd just to kill a Trunks? As far as I see, it goes like this:

•Trunks comes from his TL (TL2) to our TL (TL1) and kills Freeza, blah blah blah.
•Cell is discovered. This is from a land where he has killed a Trunks and used his Time Machine to come to TL1. He is from TL3.
•TL1's Cell, still an Embryo, is killed.
•TL3's Cell, the main Cell, makes the Cell games, has his fun, and is killed by Gohan.
•Future Trunks from TL2 goes back to TL2 and kills his Cell.

Where am I wrong, because I must be wrong in some places.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:41 pm

Okay, here is the theory behind the 4th timeline.

"Cell is discovered. This is from a land where he has killed a Trunks and used his Time Machine to come to TL1. He is from TL3."

And the Trunks he talks to was about to use his time machine to travel back in time and inform everyone that he had defeated the androids. The timeline he was travelling back to would be a theoretical timeline 4. Timeline 3 roughly corresponds to the History of Trunks timeline, with timeline 4 roughly corresponding to the regular timeline where Trunks turns up and kills Freeza.

Also, I think that the History of Trunks timeline should be referred to as timeline 1, since it's really the original one.

I'm off to find an episode listing for the entire series, with important events. That should make things clearer, since I'm no good with episode numbers.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:43 pm

Dayspring wrote:They're based on the manga and anime and Toriyama himself (though T-sama was probably refferenced directly only by the interviews in them)

Except that they obviously had to make SOME stuff up. I highly doubt that Toriyama sat down and worked out the exact proportion of humans to anthropomorphic animals on the Dragon Ball Earth, so someone had to create those figures.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 9:28 pm

Alright, thanks for explaining the 4th TL for me... But I don't think I'm ever going to understand the 5th considering I didn't understand the 4th right away.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:56 am

Okay, I'm going to try and do this one timeline at a time. Any mistakes, please say them. Note: I am using the Japanese episode numbers. Also, I don't have ready access to my DVDs, so I really need help with the years involved.

TIMELINE 1
Future Trunks' Timeline

I am calling this timeline 1, because it is the only timeline not affected by time travel. All the others have someone turning up from another time, which affects them in some way. In this timeline, the only one who time travels is Trunks', and because he returns to his starting point, nothing is changed.

KNOWN FACTS (theories are in italics):
This is how Dragon Ball Z would have "originally" played out, so to speak. In this timeline, everything is the same up until the point when Freeza and King Cold arrive on Earth in episode 120. In this timeline, no-one arrives from the future to defeat Freeza. Instead, Goku uses instant translocation to teleport to Earth, where he kills Freeza and King Cold. Because no-one arrives from the future, no-one knows about the immenent arrival of the artificial humans.

A short time after Goku arrives back on Earth, he contracts a deadly heart virus (I think it's a year, but I'm not 100% sure). He dies. Present at his death are Bulma, Vegeta, Baby Trunks, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Piccolo, Chi Chi, Kame Sen'nin, and Gohan. It is unknown exactly why Vegeta is still around. Perhaps he became fond of Bulma, and started shagging her while training himself to be stronger than Goku. However, Goku died before he could fight, and for some reason, he stayed around afterwards. Another two(?) years after that, Artificial Humans #17 and #18 attack. It is unknown what happened to #16, #19 and #20. Possibly they were never released, or maybe #17 and #18 killed them. It is important to note that they are unlikely to have fought the Z fighters, since Future Trunks never saw what they looked like. They kill Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Kuririn, Piccolo, and Vegeta. The only survivors are Trunks and Gohan (who is now an adult). This gives Gohan the incentive needed to become a Super Saiyan, but it's not enough to kill the androids. Around this time, Bulma begins work on a time machine.

Gohan takes it upon himself to train Trunks. He later dies, which is the incentive needed to give Trunks the power to turn Super Saiyan, but again, he's not strong enough to defeat the androids. Eventually, the time machine is ready, and Trunks uses it to put into action a plan developed by Bulma. In this time (the future) a vaccine had been developed for the heart disease that killed Goku. Bulma wants Trunks to take the vaccine back to a time before Goku was infected, and before the androids were activated. While there, he will warn everyone about the imminent arrival of the androids, and ask them to train themselves. It is hoped that, with the presence of Goku and the increased strength of everyone else, they will be able to avoid the androids, preventing this future world from ever having taken place.

Trunks travels back to the past (to the time Freeza and King Cold arrived on Earth - see Timeline 2), gave Goku the medicine and the warning, and then returned to his present (our future). When he arrived, he found that nothing had changed. Bulma theorised (I think, I'm not sure if that's true, or it's just Piccolo in our timeline) that when someone alters the past, they don't alter the future. Instead they create, in essense, a parallel universe, where things run differently according to the alterations made in the past. So no matter what Trunks did in the past, it wouldn't alter his present. He returned to the past, in order to see if he could learn anything that would help him destroy #17 and #18 in the present day.

While in the past, Trunks becomes far stronger, going beyond a Super Saiyan. When he returns to the present, he is able to kill #17 and #18. A short while later, the Cell created in this timeline awakens, and looks for the androids he has been designed to absorb. He finds out that Trunks has killed them, so he goes to find Trunks and steal his time machine. Trunks kills him instead.

Extra note: I am aware that Trunks first refers to the Androids who will attack as #19 and #20. However, when he sees #19 and #20, he has no idea what they look like. In addition, the artificial humans in his timeline are called #17 and #18, and look exactly like the two with those names in our timeline. Rather than try and explain this, I'm going to file it under "Toriyama mistake". Or rather, "Toriyama being told that #19 and #20 weren't scary enough and so creating new androids that slightly messed up his original plan".

daizenshuu INFORMATION:
764: Goku comes back to Earth (episode 120), kills Freeza+co, dies of heart disease
766: Birth of (Mirai) Trunks
767 Arrival of Androids, everybody but Gohan dies
780: Death of Gohan
784: Trunks goes back in time (into timeline 1's past)
785: Trunks destroys this timeline's Androids
788: Trunks destroys this timeline's Cell

(I do question at least some of this. Isn't Baby Trunks seen during the Trunks TV special prologue. Wouldn't that indicate that he was born before Goku dies? Also, everyone looks as they do after the Androids turn up (Yamcha with his spikey hair, Vegeta in blue armour, Bulma with short hair), again indicating that Goku likely died at a later point than the same year Freeza arrived on Earth).

CHARACTERS WHO TRAVEL TO OTHER TIMELINES: (Future) Trunks to Timeline B (Regular anime timeline).

CHARACTERS WHO TRAVEL TO THIS TIMELINE: None.

EPISODES: 1-119, the Trunks TV Special, and parts of 194 (I think. It could be the episode before). Trunks also has a flashback (flashforward) to it in some episode that I can't remember.

(EDIT) Was that too dense? Too much information? Too little? After I've had some sleep, I'll rewrite it and correct the many, many mistakes I've no doubt made. And I'll do the next timeline too.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:39 am

Can't there just be 3 TLs? 1 is the one we follow, 1 is Future Trunk's TL, and one is where Cell manages to kill trunks and take his Time Machine. Why is it that Cell would come from a fourth TL to the 3rd just to kill a Trunks?

TL3 Trunks went into the 4th to give Goku the medicine, exactly like the Mirai Trunks we all know and love (from TL2). Unlike that Trunks, TL3 Trunks returned to his timeline after getting the blueprints to blow up#17 THAT HE OBTAINED IN TL4, which he uses to destroy TL3's androids. When "the main Cell we all know" (which originates in this timeline: TL3) matures to Imperfect Form he finds out there's no androids. So he finds Trunks getting ready to go tell everyone he was succeful/help them with their androids/whatever we dunno or care, Cell kills TL3 Trunks and goes back in time. For reasons beyond all logic, this sends Cell into the "main timeline" (TL1) instead of the timeline TL3Trunks went to (TL4).

So can't there be just 3 TLs? If it's too confusing: YES. Only TLs 1,2 and 3 are essential to the plot. TL4 exists only to give an excuse for TL3 Cell to go back in time and enter the main (TL1) timeline. For some reason, Daizenshuu 7 gives more info on TL4 like the fact that there is a Cell games w/Perfect Cell in the same year as the Cell Games in TL1. This could ONLY take place if a Cell came back in time and absorbed TL4's androids.

I'm going to try explaining all 5 TLs backwards.
TL5: Cell goes back in time to TL4. THIS IS ALL WE KNOW OF THIS TL. Technically we don't know what year he even left, but it was probably 788.

TL4:
763: TL5 Cell arrives in embryonic form via Time Machine
764: TL3 Trunks kills Freeza+co, gives Goku medicine + warning of androids
766: Birth of this timeline's Trunks
767 Arrival of Androids, TL3 Trunks and TL4 Krillin find blueprints, what happens to TL4 Cell we don't know or care (but he is probably killed), TL3 Trunks returns to his timeline with blueprints, TL5 Cell assimilates TL4 androids and achieves perfect form, TL5 Cell holds Cell Games; results unknown.

TL3: Where Cell Comes From
764: Goku comes back to Earth (episode 120), kills Freeza+co, dies of heart disease
766: Birth of TL3 Trunks
767 Arrival of Androids, everybody but Gohan dies
780: Death of Gohan
784: Trunks goes back in time (into timeline 4's past)
785: Trunks returns with blueprints and destroys this timeline's Androids
788: TL3 Cell kills TL3 Trunks and goes into past (into TL1's past)

TL2: Where Mirai Trunks Comes From
764: Goku comes back to Earth (episode 120), kills Freeza+co, dies of heart disease
766: Birth of TL2 (Mirai) Trunks
767 Arrival of Androids, everybody but Gohan dies
780: Death of Gohan
784: Trunks goes back in time (into timeline 1's past)
785: Trunks destroys this timeline's Androids
788: Trunks destroys this timeline's Cell

TL1: The anime/manga "main" timeline
763: TL3 Cell arrives in embryonic form via Time Machine
764: TL2 (Mirai) Trunks kills Freeza+co, gives Goku medicine + warning of androids
766: Birth of this timeline's Trunks
767 Arrival of Androids, TL2 Trunks and TL1 Krillin find blueprints, TL1 Cell is killed while still in embryonic form, TL3 Cell assimilates TL1 androids and achieves perfect form, TL3 Cell holds Cell Games; results = Gohan wins.

Did that help?

Isn't Baby Trunks seen during the Trunks TV special prologue. Wouldn't that indicate that he was born before Goku dies?

Yes it would. Either they forgot that, or went according to the manga "Trunks the story" where we see TL2 Trunks as of age (about) 13.

Also, everyone looks as they do after the Androids turn up (Yamcha with his spikey hair, Vegeta in blue armour, Bulma with short hair), again indicating that Goku likely died at a later point than the same year Freeza arrived on Earth).

Probably a mistake on TOEI's part, or that's just when they started dressing that way for 3 years.

Last note, ignore if it confuses you:
Timeline 1 (main) is affected by TL2 (Mrai Trunks) and TL3 (Cell).
Timeline 4 (which is probably why they mention this in daizenshuu) is also affected by 2 TLs: TL3 (TL3 Trunks) and never mentioned TL5 (TL5 Cell).

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:57 am

Thank you Dayspring, it all makes sense. However, I now know that the only reason a fifth TL is needed is because a Daizenshuu mentioned a Cell Games in TL4. Although the Daizenshuus are THE official source, this information is useless and unimportant. Meaning, I'll stick with the 4 TL theory.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:41 pm

Thank you Dayspring, it all makes sense

Oh yeah. You people need me.

However, I now know that the only reason a fifth TL is needed is because a Daizenshuu mentioned a Cell Games in TL4. Although the Daizenshuus are THE official source, this information is useless and unimportant. Meaning, I'll stick with the 4 TL theory.

Totally agree. It would have made more sense to explain that Trunks got the remote in TL4 and leave it that. Now there's a possibility of there being an infinite # of timelines.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:03 am

Timeline 3 is really similar to Timeline 1 (Future Trunks' timeline), at least superficially. So I always thought it would make sense if timeline 4 was like timeline 2 (the anime one), except without Cell appearing in the past. Except that it apparently isn't, according to the daizenshuu. Not that it matters.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:13 am

I think we've worked out every detail with TLs, now.

PsyLiam wrote:Timeline 3 roughly corresponds to the History of Trunks timeline, with timeline 4 roughly corresponding to the regular timeline where Trunks turns up and kills Freeza.

Thanks for this, the whole concept was much simpler to understand with this idea. I guess TL5 is another History of Trunks TL, like TL3.

Edit: Actually, one more thing to work out. What is your opinions on which TL deserves to be called #1? While Future Trunk's TL is unaltered, I vote for the one we follow, as it is the original from our point of view.

Oh, what happens to TL2 (History of Trunks) when Buu shows up? I could imagine that to be quite the problem for Trunks... Well, impossible for him, actually. I always wondered about that, to tell the truth.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:52 am

I would vote for the Trunks TV Special timeline to be timeline 1, but that's up to VegEX.

As for Buu, I'm guessing he didn't show up at all, for whatever reason. At the time he was due to show up, all the Z fighters were dead, apart from a non SSJ Trunks and a SSJ 1 Gohan. Unless they figured out a way to beat him that didn't involve fighting (...nah), then there's no way they could have beaten him. So he either didn't show up, or shows up at a point after we stop watching the Future timeline.

As for 1 and 3 being similar, that's why I don't like the daizenshuu's muddling the idea by highlighting (or creating) more differences between them, like the way in which Future Trunks kills the future Androids. It just makes things more confusing than they need to be.

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:15 am

The Daizenshuu refers to "our" timeline as timeline 1, but I guess it's up to VeggyEX what to call each one.

And yes, it is explained in Daizenshuu 7 that Buu doesn't show up in timelines 2 and 3 because there are no super powerful people around to trigger his release.

You know, I was actually understanding this timeline stuff until I actually checked the book itself. Now I'm more confused than ever. If anyone else has it, can you explain why it shows a Trunks travelling from timeline 4 to timeline 3, yet it says that in timeline 4 Trunks is "absent" (Was he killed? Was he never born because a future Trunks managed to tip off Bulma and Vegeta? Fuck if I know!) It could be that it's meant to show timeline 3 Trunks returning to his own timeline, but then why don't they show him going over to the other timeline in the first place? I guess I can make a scan if anyone wants to see this confusing chart....I nearly broke my brain trying to make it fit with everything else, but it really could just be an error that was supposed to be Trunks #3 travelling to and back from timeline 4 instead of an apparently non-existent Trunks #4 travelling to timeline 3 and then....staying there, or something (the line never goes back to the other one, it's just a one-way trip).

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:26 am

I would sell my soul to see this chart. So, er, yes.

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:56 am

Oh, how easily people give their souls to me ^_^ Really makes my job just that much easier....

Anyway, here's the scan I made. It's not quite clear enough to read most of the writing, but the lines between the timelines are clear enough:

Hokay, so this is what we have. All the stuff going on between timelines 1 & 2 and 1 & 3 is pretty much what we would expect (though it does have Trunks coming to timeline 1 again after he defeats Cell in his own timeline....what, no filler episodes depicting this? Or maybe this is supposed to explain Trunks' appearance in movie 9? But then why does he have long hair in that movie if he had short hair when he defeated Cell? *Ahem* OK, never mind, this is just making things worse....) The writing at the very bottom at one point explains that the timeline 3 Trunks got a device to disable the androids in the past that he brought back with him, explaining why there were no androids in his world. Yet the chart shows that the only movement OUT of timeline 3 is Cell to timeline 1. Did the timeline 3 Trunks go off to yet another timeline not listed to get his device? And what about the line going from timeline 4 to timeline 3? The only thing listed for timeline 4 is that there is a Cell Games in 767 and that Trunks is absent (as I said in my previous post, there's no explanation as to why he's not there). How can a non-existent Trunks travel to another timeline?

The best (and, hopefully, correct) explanation I've come up with for this confusion is that they simply forgot to draw a line showing Trunks #3 going to timeline 4. That would explain why there's a line going from 4 to 3 showing his return trip. So I'm hoping it's just a Daizenshuu error (there are a few of them; Daizenshuu 7, for example, lists two different years of brith for Bra in different sections of the book). Otherwise, who knows how many non-existent Trunks from timelines we've never seen could be running around? There could be one in your backyard right now!

....

I think I'm gonna go in my backyard for a second....

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:11 pm

sailorspazz wrote:Oh, how easily people give their souls to me ^_^ Really makes my job just that much easier...

Oh, is that so? I'm really afraid as to what job you have collecting peoples souls, SailorSpazz. Or should I say, SHINIGAMI?!

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:53 pm

Did the timeline 3 Trunks go off to yet another timeline not listed to get his device? And what about the line going from timeline 4 to timeline 3?

I think that's suppose to indicate Trunks' return to TL3, since a picture of Trunks is encircled in it. Though I never got why there's no arrow indicatating TL3 Trunks first ENTERING TL4 like there is for TL2 going to TL1. Like you, I figured they forgot it.

The only thing listed for timeline 4 is that there is a Cell Games in 767 and that Trunks is absent (as I said in my previous post, there's no explanation as to why he's not there). How can a non-existent Trunks travel to another timeline?

He got killed by Cell in TL3, remember? Cell then went into the past with his time machine before Trunks could return to TL4 and help w/their Androids, and the Cell games end up taking place as a result of his absence.

New Theory: It totally makes sense now as to why the outcome of the Cell Games in TL4 is unknown - They were probably all waiting for Trunks to return with the remote while Cell succeeded in obtaining a perfect body. As a result, it's possible that only Vegeta and Goku trained in the room of spirit and time, if anybody bothered. Goku might have decided to wait as well: result = he doesn't train and doesn't tell Vegeta about the room. Therefore Cell might have won.

Kanzenshuu

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