Timeline Discussion

[PsyLiam]

It still doesn't explain why there's a Cell Games to begin with, though...

[Dayspring]

Psyliam: That arrow-less bar connecting TL4 and TL1 means that all events in both timelines are identical up to that year (of 767).

Since in TL1 a Cell arrived from another timeline (in this case TL3) in 763, we can assume that a Cell arrived from timeline in the year 763 of TL4. That Cell matured like in TL1 and achieved perfect form, etc.

[sailorspazz]

Ah, I see. I was thinking that the "Trunks absent" was saying that, for some reason, Trunks wasn't born in timeline 4. But I guess it makes more sense that it was referring to the timeline 3 Trunks simply not returning to that timeline again since he was killed in his own time (but then there's still the huge logic error of why was timeline 3 Trunks coming to timeline 1 if he was supposed to be dealing with timeline 4? Imagine how many other timelines could have had Trunks that all wanted to come to the main one: "I'm not getting enough airtime in this timeline no one's heard about....I'm going for the big time, baby!")

Zackarotto: Shinigami? I don't know what you're talking about

[Zackarotto]

Shinigami? I don't know what you're talking about

Oh, I'm sorry. Do you prefer Death? Or possibly the Grim Reaper? If not there's always Thanatos...

I'm on to you...!

[Dayspring]

but then there's still the huge logic error of why was timeline 3 Trunks coming to timeline 1 if he was supposed to be dealing with timeline 4

He was probably intending to return to timeline 4 to use his remote on their androids. Maybe when Cell got in and fiddled with the machine to activate it, it changed the year to 3 years earlier and in the "wrong" (TL1 instead of 4) timeline.

[Zackarotto]

That's not likely, but it would work, Dayspring. Well, I guess I'll have to go with it, seeing as there's no other explanation... Heh. Damn.

[laserkid]

O.o wow lots of stuff.

Heres how I see it. I agree with dayspring on timeline 1 - thats pretty self sufficient.

Timeline 2: The anime we see, Trunks from Timeline 1 visits us here, and cell from Timeline 3

Timeline 3: Exactly the same as timeline 1, except Trunks goes to timeline 4 not timeline 2, when he returns to this timeline, Cell kills him. The only time traveller here is Trunks, going to timeline 4, and Cell going time timeline 2.

Timeline 4: An alternate timeline off the TV show, this is where timeline 3 Trunks went to, I would argue if there were cell games here Trunks could NOT have been present for them, which pretty much means they didnt happen. The androids were destroyed in this timeline which is why Trunks went back to his time unaware of Cell. At the very best this world's Cell would eventually show up in imperfect form and get its ass thumped by the Super Saiyans, as it has no acess to a time machine nor the androids whom Trunks destroyed. Its impossible for this timeline to have played out the same as timeline 2 because then this Trunks would have known about Cell and would have been able to beat him, as Trunks of timeline 1 did. The only time traveller in this timeline is timeline 3 Trunks.

[Dayspring]

That's how we'd all LOVE to see it (as it simplifies things majorly), but the Daizenshuu fucks things up here. It mentions that a Cell games takes place (with a pic of Perfect Cell), which means Cell assimilates #17 and 18 pour certes.

You know what? SCREW THE DAIZENSHUU! It's full errors in other places, let's just agree it's wrong here. Life's easier that way since, as you said, when Cell comes along they'd pummel him no prob.

[PsyLiam]

Thank you! I love background information, but when it needlessly complicates things...

The thing is, timelines 3 and 4 being like 1 and 2 makes a lot of sense. Saying that 3 is the same as 1, except that Cell kills Trunks before he returns to the past makes it easy to understand. And saying that 4 corresponds to 2 also makes sense. Hell, saying that 4 is like 2 but without a Cell is also easy. But 4 being like 2 including a Cell from somewhere else and a Trunks who turns up and then goes but doesn't come back? Madness.

[Dayspring]

Hell, saying that 4 is like 2 but without a Cell is also easy. But 4 being like 2 including a Cell from somewhere else and a Trunks who turns up and then goes but doesn't come back? Madness

Thank you mister sarcasm. I'm sorry but I'm not backing down. The Daizenshuu gave additional info about TL4. Not me. It said that there was a Cell games in the year 767 with a Perfect Cell. That only happens if a Cell came from another timeline and assimilated TL4's androids. EX wanted ALL info concerning the timelines. That includes the Daizenshuu's unwanted-but-given info. With said info, we can conclude a fifth timeline exists. I know it's redundant and confusing, BUT IT'S THERE. Deal with it.

[PsyLiam]

But I'm slightly drunk and posting on a DBZ forum! I don't want to deal with anything! Including the fact that I probably have better things that I should be doing.

I hate you all.

Would you back down if I offered candy?

[Dayspring]

Are they Dragonball shaped? If so: yes. If not so, then FUCK OFF, SARCASTABITCH!!! (But gimme the candy first. )

Alternate timelines multiple-Cells in multiple forms. Are these "special candies"?

[SaiyaJedi]

Timeline 4 actually should have more information there -- we know that there was no (fully-grown) Cell there, since otherwise Trunks would have been prepared for it when it arrived. Most likely, the Z-Senshi would have undertaken the same steps they did for Cell, only they would have then been able to handily defeat the Jinzouningen with the kind of powerups they received. Depending on who lives, who dies, and who reaches what level of power, the Buu saga might not come to pass, or might not happen the same way it does in timeline 2 (for instance, without his supposed "defeat" of Cell, Mr. Satan would never have gained as much prominence as he did, and wouldn't have met or made friends with Buu). Depending on the results of the Buu arc, Cell would either be completely obliterated by the warriors who fought Buu, find no resistance among the populace (but also no time machine) and wreak general havoc, or be killed by the (permanent) destruction of Earth.

Of course, all of the above is assuming that Timeline 4 isn't visited by a Cell from yet another timeline at some other point in time. If it is, then the whole thing becomes a recursive loop, with an infinite number of timelines that feature minor variations on the same basic theme.

So... I think I actually have this figured out, now... I just don't know if the above will make sense to anyone else.

[Jerseymilk]

I'm starting to agree with SaiyaJedi about a recursive loop happening. I know you'll want to kill me guys for saying that but I don't know any other way to explain another Cell Games happening in Timeline 4, unless another Cell showed up from a fifth timeline, and that would correspond with Dayspring's Daizenshuu info. Things would probably have been okay with just Trunks travelling from Timeline 1 to Timeline 2 and back, but I think that once Cell travelled back from the third timeline, it set in motion a chain reaction of infinite timelines looping together. I'm just going by all my science fiction experience here, but it seems that the more you mess with time travel, the bigger and more complicated it gets.

[laserkid]

Timeline 4 actually should have more information there -- we know that there was no (fully-grown) Cell there, since otherwise Trunks would have been prepared for it when it arrived. Most likely, the Z-Senshi would have undertaken the same steps they did for Cell, only they would have then been able to handily defeat the Jinzouningen with the kind of powerups they received. Depending on who lives, who dies, and who reaches what level of power, the Buu saga might not come to pass, or might not happen the same way it does in timeline 2 (for instance, without his supposed "defeat" of Cell, Mr. Satan would never have gained as much prominence as he did, and wouldn't have met or made friends with Buu). Depending on the results of the Buu arc, Cell would either be completely obliterated by the warriors who fought Buu, find no resistance among the populace (but also no time machine) and wreak general havoc, or be killed by the (permanent) destruction of Earth."

SHOULD there be more info, certainly but there IS none. I'm going to say the Daizenshuu is wrong here, because if that timelines Trunks even KNEW about Cell he would not have been killed by it in his timeline, because he'd be expecting it, just like Trunks of timeline 1 does. Sure more info on events in that timeline would be EXCELLENT but there just is nothing to go off of for that beyond speculation.

Of course, all of the above is assuming that Timeline 4 isn't visited by a Cell from yet another timeline at some other point in time. If it is, then the whole thing becomes a recursive loop, with an infinite number of timelines that feature minor variations on the same basic theme.

So... I think I actually have this figured out, now... I just don't know if the above will make sense to anyone else.

Again, against that theory, Trunks would have known and trained for Cell if it was in timeline 4, just as Trunks of Timeline 1 did. Simply put the Daizenshuu CANNOT be right there, because it would NOT work even with infinite timelines because Trunks would have known and waited for Cell thus negating his appearance in timeline 2. Also Cell says that Trunks had come back victorious and thought himself at his fullest power, after killing the androids, he never made mention of another version of himself, but thats just extra info there not needed to disproove the Daizenshuu.

FURTHERMORE the theory that Trunks left and then cell came in and went perfect form is ALSO unworkable, even in that setting Trunks helped destroy the androids Cell needs to get to that form, so even if he left before cell showed up there after killing the androids no cell games could occur, just an imperfect cell getting his but kicked.

[TripleRach]

I agree with laserkid. I hadn't really thought about it before, but if Cell had appeared in Timeline 4, then Trunks would have been prepared for him in Timeline 3, and probably would not have been killed. He had like three or four years to wait for Cell, and Cell's first form, prior to absorbing people, was much weaker than #17 or #18.

[Dayspring]

He had like three or four years to wait for Cell, and Cell's first form, prior to absorbing people, was much weaker than #17 or #18.

Not in the future. He was ready to assimilate #17 and #18, which meant he was stronger than the androids. He only attacked Trunks because they weren't there anymore. Also, this Trunks used the remote to destroy the androids, which would indicate he was still weaker than them. So prepared or not, Cell would have over powered him. I know he had three years to train if he was aware of Cell coming, but without realizing he should try to become USSJ, he probably trained normally. Who knows? Maybe Trunks almost beat him but then got energy sucked out of him. Unlike Piccolo, Trunks wouldn't be able to rip off limbs and regenerate them.

As for Trunks finding Gero's lab and destroying him in embryo form, maybe his Saiyan instincts kicked in since Mirai Trunks could have done that too but risked a fight instead.

[Contrail]

Okay, after reading this whole thread, I think I'll try to explain things from a different angle. I will start with the original (i.e. unvisited by any time travelers at all) timeline, then deal with each incident of time traveling in the order that they happen and explain which timeline (if any) has been created by it.

I'm going to assume that the only timelines that exist are the original timeline and timelines that have branched off from it because of the actions of time travelers. In DBZ's version of time travel, new timelines are created any time there is (or could be) an altered version of events that are already known to have happened.

We know that, without any intervention by time travelers at all, Goku dies because of the heart virus, Seventeen and Eighteen kill of all the remaining Z Fighters other than Gohan, Gohan trains Trunks and then gets killed by the androids, and Trunks then travels back in time using Bulma's time machine. (This is actually Timeline 3 on laserkid's chart.)

At this point, anything that happens in Timeline 3 after Trunks leaves it in the time machine has not happened yet. To be able to determine what happens after Trunks leaves, when (or if) Trunks returns to that timeline needs to be determined first. (After all, Trunks could have died or been stranded in the past, which would have prevented Cell from traveling back in time because he wouldn't have a time machine to use.)

Trunks traveling back in time causes a new timeline to come into existence. (This is Timeline 4 on laserkid's chart.) Events happen in a similar fashion to what we see in the manga and anime. (Trunks defeating Frieza and King Cold, Trunks giving Goku the heart medicine and warning him about the androids.) Trunks then returns to Timeline 3 and discovers he created an alternate timeline instead of changing his own. Trunks then travels back in time to try to help the Z Fighters defeat the androids in their timeline and find a way to defeat the androids that exist in his timeline. (The Trunks we see in the manga and anime does this, and there's no reason to think Timeline 3's Trunks would behave differently.)

Trunks arrives in Timeline 4 around the time the androids show up. (Bulma's time machine appears to return to the same timeline each time as long as the time traveller doesn't try to visit a point in time prior to the points in time that have already been visited.) Cell does not appear because Cell has not yet travelled back in time. The only other thing we know for certain about this timeline is that Trunks gains the ability to defeat the androids during this visit.

Trunks returns to Timeline 3 and defeats the androids of his timeline. Afterwards Cell kills Trunks and steals the time machine. Cell journeys into the past to search for the androids. This creates the timeline we see in the manga and anime. (Timeline 2 on laserkid's chart.)

Since there are now 2 different versions of the past that Trunks could have visited, a second version of Trunks is created. When the second version of Trunks returns to the future, it creates a timeline which is identical to Timeline 3 up until the point where Trunks returns to the future after having visited Timeline 2 instead of Timeline 4. (This new timeline is Timeline 1 on laserkid's chart.)

The Trunks from Timeline 1 returns to Timeline 2 to help fight the androids. He ends up participating in the Cell Games as we see in the manga and anime. Then he returns to Timeline 1, defeats the androids of his timeline, and defeats the Cell of his timeline when Cell shows up. And that's pretty much it as far as time traveling in DBZ goes.

I know the Daizenshuu's version of what happens with the time lines contradicts what I describe, but the scenario described there has logical flaws given what we see in the manga and the anime that have already been brought up in this thread. If one insists on including all of the timelines described in the Daizenshuu, the timelines the Daizenshuu labels 3 and 4 could be placed in between the timelines described here as 1 and 2 (which are labeled as 2 and 1 respectively in the daizenshuu) and 3 and 4 (which are either not shown in the Daizenshuu or are inaccurately described there, depending on how you want to see things), but I feel this complicates things more than necessary.

I hope this long explanation makes things a little clearer for you all, instead of confusing things further.

-Contrail

[PsyLiam]

That seems unlikely, considering how strongly he fought for everyone to kill the androids before they were activated. Future Trunks really doesn't strike me as the sort that would risk letting people get killed just for the sake of a good fight.

In fact, why didn't Trunks just hunt down Gero's lab? Does he say at all in the manga? Was he just confident in his abilities? Did he forget? What?

And, Dayspring, if you're ignoring the daizenshuu's claim that Timeline 4 contained a Cell Games, then you don't have to take the "Trunks from timeline 3 killed the androids via remote control" thing as being correct either. Unless Cell actually states as much in his narration in that episode that I can't remember the number of.

[VegettoEX]

Why does everyone keep spelling daizenshuu wrong... ? ^^;;