Timeline Discussion

Help the Kanzenshuu staff beta-test new sections, new website initiatives, and more!

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
PsyLiam
I Live Here
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: Liverpool, UK
Contact:

Post by PsyLiam » Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:34 am

You go, girl!

User avatar
Jerseymilk
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5477
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Jerseymilk » Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:55 am

Psy, I've just written out the two versions. It's on the page before this one joined to my last post. :wink:

User avatar
laserkid
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:37 pm
Location: Utah
Contact:

Post by laserkid » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:01 am

When will this thread just die X-X
-Laserkid

Zackarotto
I Live Here
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:17 am

Post by Zackarotto » Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:54 am

Never. Or, not until every damn word in the english alphabet (as well as words in other languages) has been considered and typed in this topic.

User avatar
Dayspring
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7753
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Post by Dayspring » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:16 am

The alphabet consists of words now? :P
j/k

I figure this'll go on even years after EX says screw it and puts whatever he wants in his timeline section. He'll have 1-4 explained like in the daizenshuu, but then give a sidenote as to how the manga and anime would only give reference to 3, with a fourth TL explained only as a reference as to how TL3 Trunks went back in time. Meanwhile, we'll be here arguing over which Cell Junior survived in Timeline Delta to assimilate Majin Boo; only to have been defeated by SSJ3 Dai 2 Dankai Pan.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.

User avatar
Jerseymilk
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5477
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Jerseymilk » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:21 am

You know I think EX has already given up since he hasn't posted on this thread for about 2 days. I can't say I blame you EX, I wouldn't want your job of answering this problem efficiently.

User avatar
Dayspring
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7753
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Post by Dayspring » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:38 am

My theory is to explain timelines 1-4 as the daizenshuu does, then explain how it created a recurring timeline plothole problem with a Cell arriving from a never mentioned TL5 into TL4, and top it all off with how the manga/anime explains the three (or four if you want to keep TL3 Trunks's trip unknown) TLs.

EX:
Daizenshuu-wise: Everything we've been arguing.
Manga-wise:
TL1 = manga/anime
TL2 = Mirai Trunks' TL (switch TL1 with 2 if you want, that's not important)
TL3 = Trunks goes into TL4, returns and 'somehow' destroys androids. Cell kills Trunks + swipes his time machine to end up in TL1.
TL4 = No details given by manga or anime, this is the timeline that TL3 Trunks goes to.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.

User avatar
Jerseymilk
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5477
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Jerseymilk » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:40 am

Nicely simplified. 8)

User avatar
Dayspring
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7753
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Post by Dayspring » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:50 am

If it weren't for the damn Cell Games in TL4 then the daizenshuu would have been dead on. Trunks + Krillin find remote plans, build remote, use it on androids. Cell matures 20 years later and results would be unknown THERE. Trunks returns to TL3, uses remote on androids, gets killed by Cell.

BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.

User avatar
Jerseymilk
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5477
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Jerseymilk » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:57 am

The only thing you can do about the additional Cell Games problem is theoririze how Cell could achieve perfect form without #17 and #18. In which case, it will just stay a theory anyway, because we don't have anything concrete reference-wise. However, I suppose a plausible theory is better than nothing, at least it's some sort of answer, instead of saying,"Well, I have no idea how".

User avatar
laserkid
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:37 pm
Location: Utah
Contact:

Post by laserkid » Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:42 pm

indeed we dont know how - my theory is he was perfect in his timeline before coming to TL4 but I can['t back that up as exact fact, its just the only way perfect cell could be their that I can think of.

Otherwise that last TL description works 100% for me.
-Laserkid

User avatar
Jerseymilk
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5477
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Jerseymilk » Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:05 pm

Ya I thought of the possibilty of Cell as already being perfect could be the explanation too, but the only problem with that is if Cell was already perfect in TL5, why come back to TL4? So now I'm thinking the only reason he might come back anyway is because maybe things went differently in TL5 such as he won the Cell games and killed everyone. Since though he's a sicko who loves testing his strength, heck maybe he thought "That was fun! Let's travel back in time and do it all over again!", I don't know! :? Another possibility could be that in TL5, Goku died of the heart virus after all, and since Cell would want to test his strength on the ultimate opponent, to him Goku, he'd have to travel back in time to do it. He could probably easily absorb #17 and #18, kill all the warriors, including Gohan, Vegita, and Trunks, since they probably wouldn't find out about the Room of Spirit and Time, so they couldn't up their strength enough to beat him. After everyone had been killed, he would take Trunks' time machine back into the past, so he could hopefully fight against Goku before he died. Is this making any sense guys? I just don't know, I'm trying to make it so the daizenshuu can work with the TL description we already have. Anyone else have any ideas? :?

User avatar
laserkid
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:37 pm
Location: Utah
Contact:

Post by laserkid » Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:39 pm

Well the only reason for it I see is he wanted to test his perfect form...and there was no one left in TL5 to test it against. Some of the Saiyan Blood could account for this.
-Laserkid

User avatar
PsyLiam
I Live Here
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: Liverpool, UK
Contact:

Post by PsyLiam » Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:32 pm

There are really only two areas that the Daizenshuu explanation is a a bit...dodgy, really. All the information given about Timeline 4 (when we are given nothing in the show), and the fact that Timeline 3 Trunks destroyed the Androids via remote control (when again, the show doesn't say how he did it. Or even if it was him). But the stuff about timelines 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1) we all seem to be in agreement on.

Now, there are only two things left that confuse me and that don't seem to have an explanation:

1/ Why was alt-Trunks' timemachine set to 1 year before he turned up the "first" time? (With the only answer that I can think of being that Cell somehow knocked the controls when he got in. Although that's quite weak.)

2/ How comes that the same time machine Trunks used to go to timeline 4 ended up in the main anime timeline when Cell used it? If he hasn't, would alt-Trunks have come to the same timeline as regular Future Trunks (ie, ours)? (And again, the only real explanation I can think of is that time machines only return to timelines/dimensions they've previously visited if the same person is piloting them.)
Last edited by PsyLiam on Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
laserkid
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:37 pm
Location: Utah
Contact:

Post by laserkid » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:01 pm

"1/ Why was alt-Trunks' timemachine set to 1 year before he turned up the "first" time? (With the only answer that I can think of being that Cell someone knocked the controls when he got in. Although that's quite weak.) "

Chalk THAT one up to unfixable plotholes, I dont think Toriyanma thought that one through, but Cell knocking controls does make sense...


"2/ How comes that the same time machine Trunks used to go to timeline 4 ended up in the main anime timeline when Cell used it? If he hasn't, would alt-Trunks have come to the same timeline as regular Future Trunks (ie, ours)? (And again, the only real explanation I can think of is that time machines only return to timelines/dimensions they've previously visited if the same person is piloting them.)"

Fluke accident? Perhaps cell DID bump controls that could answer both.
-Laserkid

User avatar
TripleRach
Moderator
Posts: 2656
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:08 pm
Location: Ohio, USA
Contact:

Post by TripleRach » Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:10 am

PsyLiam wrote:2/ How comes that the same time machine Trunks used to go to timeline 4 ended up in the main anime timeline when Cell used it? If he hasn't, would alt-Trunks have come to the same timeline as regular Future Trunks (ie, ours)? (And again, the only real explanation I can think of is that time machines only return to timelines/dimensions they've previously visited if the same person is piloting them.)
I think I have an answer for this...

Cell travelled back to one year before Trunks killed Freeza, right? If he had also went to Timeline 4, the same as Trunks, then he would have already been in Timeline 4 before Trunks got there. For Cell to have already been there before Trunks is impossible, since Dragon Ball obviously doesn't use the Bill & Ted-style of time travel... It seems that Cell's having gone back in time is actually what created Timeline 2, our main anime/manga timeline.

And it's a damn good thing Dragon Ball doesn't use Bill & Ted-style time travel, because that would probably give us even worse headaches.

User avatar
PsyLiam
I Live Here
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: Liverpool, UK
Contact:

Post by PsyLiam » Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:21 pm

I tend to agree with you, but this is where I have problems with the daizenshuu. Timelines 1 and 3 are pretty similar, and are both "future timelines" (for want of a better word). The difference between them is that Trunks is killed in one.

A similar thing happens to timelines 2 and 4. Except that (originally, in my mind), Timeline 4 only had Trunks travelling to it, whereas timeline 2 had Trunks AND Cell travelling to it. That made sense. But the Daizenshuu insists that timeline 4 had a Cell, so one had to have travelled there as well, and who's to say that he didn't arrive before Trunks did too?

And remember that, in our timeline, Cell was there before Trunks. Somehow.

User avatar
PsyLiam
I Live Here
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: Liverpool, UK
Contact:

Post by PsyLiam » Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:26 pm

The episode where Trunks and Kuririn destroy Gero's lab was on today, and I realised something that further messes things up:

Okay, the Daizenshuu maintains that alt-Trunks from timeline 3 destroys the androids via remote control (as oppossed to our Trunks, who just beats the stuffing out of them). We assume that this remote control is made by Bulma from plans that Trunks got in timeline 4, right?

Except that the plans for android 17 were in Gero's undergroud lab, where Cell was stored. And we were assuming that alt-Trunks never met Cell (as his reaction to seeing him, and quick death implies). But there's no way that alt-Trunks would have gone to Gero's laboratory and not been in the last bit curious about the small larvae thing growing behind him.

User avatar
Jerseymilk
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5477
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Jerseymilk » Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:28 pm

It could be that he got the plans some other way, such as Buruma somehow figured out how they work and built a remote, she is very talented. That seems unlikely though since I rememeber when she's studying #17's plans, she remarks that Gero was a genius and that their construction seems very complex.

User avatar
PsyLiam
I Live Here
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: Liverpool, UK
Contact:

Post by PsyLiam » Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:39 pm

True. Besides, don't you think that if she'd have done that first if it were possible? I mean, it's got to be easier that bulding a frickin' time machine.

Post Reply