Timeline Discussion

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PsyLiam
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Post by PsyLiam » Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:06 pm

To spite you, Mr Legendary Internet "I spell it Gokou" A-hole VegettoEX.

Yeah!

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Post by VegettoEX » Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:09 pm

The more you call me an asshole, the more I'm going to degenerate back into one :D.

And then I'll cry.

This timeline shit has literally confused the Hell out of me. I have no more Hell. It's gone.
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:39 pm

And, Dayspring, if you're ignoring the daizenshuu's claim that Timeline 4 contained a Cell Games, then you don't have to take the "Trunks from timeline 3 killed the androids via remote control" thing as being correct either. Unless Cell actually states as much in his narration in that episode that I can't remember the number of.
I've been one of the few people arguing it since day one (remember my fifth to infinite timeline theory that drove everyone nuts that I used to support Perfect Cell's credibility?). It's the DAIZENSHUU that says TL3's androids were destroyed by the remote Trunks obtained in TL4. The reason why you can't remember Cell saying that in his explanation is because he didn't know. Cell just said "Trunks must have destroyed them somehow."
In fact, why didn't Trunks just hunt down Gero's lab? Does he say at all in the manga? Was he just confident in his abilities? Did he forget? What?
Mirai Trunks didn't do this either. Maybe it was Toriyama who forgot in the manga since Trunks was 00ber powerful at that point.
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Post by PsyLiam » Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:05 pm

I meant Mirai Trunks. Er, I mean, I meant OUR Mirai Trunks. I'm just assuming that the Future Trunks from timeline would act the same.

And I'm not calling you an asshole, VegettoEX. I'm calling you an arsehole, just abreviated down.

So, you see, love!

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Post by Dayspring » Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:57 pm

Love between a man and a woman, or love of an insult well dealt? :mrgreen:
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Post by TripleRach » Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:11 pm

PsyLiam wrote:In fact, why didn't Trunks just hunt down Gero's lab? Does he say at all in the manga? Was he just confident in his abilities? Did he forget? What?
Well, he and Vegeta were both much stronger than Second-Form Cell, so I'd imagine he was fairly confident in his ability to kill First-Form Cell.

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Post by Deus ex Machina » Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:56 pm

I don't think I could add anything to the time-line discussion, it's already gone way over my head. :shock: I DO have a question though, something that I haven't seen anyone address.

According to Cell's story, he killed Trunks and used it to travel back through time. When Piccolo asks Cell why he chose 4 years ago (1 year before Freeza and Goku arrive) Cell replies that the coordinates had been set by Trunks, because he was just about to go back. Piccolo then says that Trunks was probably coming back to tell them all he defeated the Artificial Humans in his own time.

But that makes no sence! Why was Trunks going to travel back to that time period, Piccolo's explination makes absolutely no sence. Why would he be going back a full year before he had even MET everyone?

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Post by laserkid » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:25 am

Cell says Trunks fought him and got thumped, this was shown basically, so yes we DO know that Trunks DIDNT have a close battle and if there was a Cell Gamres in timeline 4 with Trunks there that means he DIDNT destroy the androids there as it states he did. So the Daizenshuu is WRONG on this one, and on the remote issue, if they destroyed them by remote, again, no perfect Cell in timeline 4 and thus no cell games. so yes, if theres a Cell there after Trunks left, its all good and dandy you then do have an eternal loop outwards on the issue but it CANT be a perfect form cell.
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Post by Sun_Wukong » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:31 am

Wow, I came in really late on this discussion. Anyway, this is how i always thought of it.

T-Timeline
AT-Aliternate Timeline

T1)-Trunks arrives 3 years before the Androids, kills off Freeza, and gives Goku the heart medicine (ooh its grape flavor :P )
-Cell arrives, absorbs #17 and #18, is killed off by Gohan, ect.

T2)-Goku dies of a heart virus
-Gohan and Trunks are only survivors of Androids
-Trunks goes back to T1) to warn Goku

AT1)-Cell kills Trunks after Trunks defeats the Androids
-Cell goes back to T1)

There's two things that have been brought up that I dont really understand either. How is there a fourth timeline? I know T1 was altered by both Trunks' and Cell's arrivals,(#19 and #20 arriving on date Trunks gave Goku, ect.) but did Cell's arrival create a fourth timeline? Also, in AT1) did things occur a lot earlier, considering Trunks defeated the Androids a year after Freeza arrived on earth in T1) ?

Toriyama mustve really not known what he was getting himself into when he introduced Trunks, considering time travel was never mentioned after the Cell Games.

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Post by Dayspring » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:13 pm

Fourth timeline is the past that Trunks from AT went to. The daizenshuu gives a bunch of info about it that caused this hellhole of a thread. In order to explain how Cell was able to kill someone strong enough to destroy the androids, it said he went to this fourth timeline and brought back the remote control to destroy the androids. Unfortunately they gave us confusing and useless additional info on the fourth timeline that is pissing us all off.
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Post by laserkid » Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:51 pm

teres DEFINATLY a 4th timeline that 3rd timeline trunks went to, the debate is basically what the hell happened in timeline 4, and does it spur a 5th timeline, or infinate timelines?

The first 3 timelines on my littlke image up there somewhere in this thread everyone is in perfect agreement in, these are facts that we all know.

The PROBLEM is that the Daizenshuu's claime that final 4th timeline had a Cell Games in them, and that Trunks destroyed the androids in timeline 3 with a remote. Thats what the Daizenshuu says.

Here's the problem:

DBZ says: Trunks went to, killed the androids in timeline 4, came back to timeline 3, killed the anroids there, and was then killed by timeline 3's Cell.

Now if we take this as the truth theres a few problems:

If he destroyed the androids in timeline 4, how the hell is there a Cell Games with a perfect Cell? This goes above and beyond Trunks being killed by Timeline 3 Cell. This is a, well they destroyed the androids, how did Cell go to his perfect form? Its impossible for him to do so. Unless he got the android power ups in his 5th timeline world and for some unknown and dumb ass reason came to timeline 4. Its really a big stupid mess that makes absolutely no sense.

And if that wasn't basd enough, thats ignoring the fact that Timeline 3 Trunks looked confused and surpriused to see Cell in Cell;'s flashback, and that IMPERFECT Cell wiped the floor with him. Truly for that to be the case Trunks could NOT have been present for any Cell Games.

The ONLY way a 5th or infanite timeline works here is the following:

Trunks of timeline 3 goes to timeline 4, they destroy the timeline 4 androids, Trunks goes back, and is killedc by Cell. Meanwhile in a 5th timeline Cell has recieved perfect form by absorbing THAT timeline's #17 and #18 - and then for some bizzare reason travelled back to timeline 4 and started up the Cell Games in timeline 4. The only question here is WHY would a perfect Cell WANT to go back in time?

This actually eliminates the infinate timeline but DOES set a 5th timeline that makes absolutely no sense.

IF we are to accomodate the Daizenshuu the following chart SHOULD work:

http://people.delphiforums.com/laserkid ... lines2.png (link only this time, otherwise we get vertical scrolling from hell)
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Post by PsyLiam » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:11 pm

I know this is probably me talking crazy, but hasn't anyone got the episode with Cell's flashback/forward narration thing about how he killed Trunks on DVD? To, y'know, check out the subtitles and see what they say?

For that matter, which episode was it with that narration in?

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Post by Dayspring » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:27 pm

I'm not touching the 5th timeline with a fifty-foot pole. It was probably like Timeline 3 since all you know about it is that the Perfect Cell from timeline 4 comes from there.
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Post by Dark Vegeta-Sama » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:47 pm

For the first time ever I actually came up with the timelines in a way that makes SENSE to me, and hopefully will to everyone else. I’ve tried to make this sound the least confusing as possible…

Timeline 1:
The timeline that SHOULD have occurred. Trunks is about to go back to the past and is killed by Cell. Cell goes back to the past. The ultimate fate of timeline 1 is unknown, but Cell is now gone (since he is killed in the past, thus he does not return), although there are no longer any fighters left alive.

Timeline 2:
The timeline that Trunks created when he defeated Cold and Freeza. We follow this timeline in the anime up until Cell arrives. It is assumed that since Cell does not appear in this timeline, the Z-Warriors kill the Androids and all becomes well. Although, they are most likely all killed by Majin Buu later on, but Goku remains alive because there are no Cell Games at all. Cell, however, continues to grow underneath Gero’s laboratory, but even when he awakens 24 years later, the remaining Z Warriors will easily defeat him, providing that they weren’t killed by Majin Buu years earlier.

Timeline 3:
The timeline that the anime follows as soon as Cell shows up, and the one which we continue to follow from then on. Cell has appeared from timeline 1. Cell Games occur. Majin Buu shows up. You know the rest.

Timeline 4:
The timeline created when Trunks kills Cell. Since originally Cell was MEANT to kill Trunks, by Trunks killing Cell all of a sudden, he created this new timeline 4, in which Trunks lives the rest of his life in peace.



So really, the fate of timeline 1 is the only true unknown. Cell has gone to the past but Trunks is dead, so there is nobody left to defend the earth from anything. Basically, the original timeline is left eternally damned.
Timeline 2 is the one that we follow up until Cell shows up. By going to the past, he creates timeline 3, which we follow for the rest of the series. Timeline 2 is where the Z Warriors kill the Androids and Trunks returns to timeline 1 with the remote, but is then killed by Cell, who goes back to Timeline 2, but ends up creating timeline 3. Timeline 4 is simply what happens when Trunks alters what was meant to be by killing Cell upon returning to the future, as opposed to Cell killing him which was SUPPOSED to happen.

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Post by Dayspring » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:29 pm

Interesting.
Sorry, but that really doesn't add up. =P
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Post by laserkid » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:31 pm

Dayspring - I just touched on it for Daizenshuu purists who want an explanation its the ONLY one that works.

Dark Vegeta Sama, lets try and use the same timeline nu,mbers as everyone else, your theory sounds interesting but the number changing confused me

generally

timeline 1 - timeline of Mirai Trunks we know

Timeline 2 - Main DB/Z timeline

timeline 3 - timeline of Cell and killed Mirai Trunks

Timeline 4 - timeline of dead Mirai Trunks' creation from his time travelling

Timeline 5 - timeline of the cell that goes to timeline 4


Screwey, ain't it?
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Post by Dayspring » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:35 pm

Screwy yes, but if people STILL don't get it after that simple, concise explanation in your last post I'm going to gauge their eyes out with a rusty spoon.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:37 pm

Okay, I checked my DVD copy of the episode in question and here's that part of Piccolo and Cell's conversation:

Cell:"However, in the future where I was, for some reason, perhaps they had been defeated by that Trunks guy, I don't know...No.17 and No.18 weren't around. But luckily for me, Trunks had his time machine!"

At this point, we see the flashback of Cell confronting Trunks, Trunks charges him with his sword but is killed.

Cell: "After killing Trunks, I used the time machine to come to this era in search of No.17 and No.18."

Now we see the flashback of Cell reverting back to his egg form and travelling back in time.

Piccolo: "W-why did you choose this era!?"

Cell: "Well now, Trunks' time machine was already set for this era. All I did was push the switch."

Piccolo thinking: "So that's it. Trunks must have set the time machine so he could come to tell us that somehow he had destroyed the Artificial Humans. A-and then he came along..."

That's it. If anyone else wants to check the episode, it's on the Funimation DVD "Imperfect Cell-Discovery", the episode is entitled "His Name is Cell", and the episode number is #128 for Funimation's count and for the Japanese numbering, it's #143.

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Post by Dayspring » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:46 pm

New theory:
Timeline 3 Trunks finds blueprints for remote in TL4. He returns with them to his TL and his mom makes a remote which he uses. He prepares to head back to TL4 to kill Cell from TL5 in embryonic state and give the TL4 crew the remote when TL3 Cell kills him and takes the time machine.
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Post by laserkid » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:04 pm

"Timeline 3 Trunks finds blueprints for remote in TL4."

entirely possible but again he destroyed the androids in TL4


"He returns with them to his TL and his mom makes a remote which he uses. He prepares to head back to TL4 to kill Cell from TL5 in embryonic state and give the TL4 crew the remote when TL3 Cell kills him and takes the time machine."

Woah, woah woah hold it there. Why? Why not have Bulma in TL4 make one, as TL2 Bulma did? O.o that just seems overly un necessary - plus then he knew about Cell again....why would he be prone to attack if he knew? It just doesnt work because Imperfect Cell isnt THAT strong against the Saiyans that were even able to go USSJ - heck an SSJ Trunks could probably beat him if he worked at it, USSJ beat the stuffing out of 2nd form Cell so...really Trunks just NEVER could have known about Cell...
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