Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

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Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:14 pm

This discussion will be one of many on-going threads that will be created by Kanzenshuu administrators in the "Staff Help Requests" area. The first post in this thread will be regularly updated by an administrator based on the community feedback and discussion. In short, we have plans to launch a wiki for the Dragon Ball franchise that is tied to our website. We are asking for your help in developing what will be the structure -- NOT THE ACTUAL CONTENT -- of various pages throughout the wiki. If you are interested in contributing to the wiki, right now this is the best way for you to do it. Remember, we are not asking you to write articles at this point in time; rather, we are asking for your thoughts on how the eventual articles for the eventual wiki will be eventually put into place. This will help us to develop a style guide for pages on the wiki, which will in turn make it easier for you to contribute articles down the road.

Please keep your responses even more neatly-written, clear, and concise than we already expect elsewhere on the forum.


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Please answer and discuss the following questions (and/or respond with more questions we should think about) regarding pages on the future wiki for characters in the series:
  • What information about a character's name should be included (spellings, adaptations, pun source, etc.), if at all?
  • What information about the design/look of the character should be included, if at all?
  • What information about their appearance (meaning their debut and/or removal) in the series should be included, if at all?
  • What information about their appearances in media other than the series itself should be included, if at all?
  • What information about their relationships to other characters in the series should be included, if at all?
  • If a small box were to be included toward the top of the article, what essential information should be included (traditionally name, first appearance, etc.)?
  • What information about a characters usage of special techniques should be included, if at all?
  • What type of production information (voice actors, character designers, etc.) should be included, if at all?
  • What type of analysis of the character, either by Kanzenshuu staff, community members, or professional/industry members should be included, if at all?
  • What is an appropriate length (rough number of sentences/paragraphs) for any and all of the above types of information inclusions?
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PROPOSED STRUCTURE / (VERY ROUGH) DRAFT EXAMPLE FOR WIKI CHARACTER PAGES:

Sidebar Box
--------------
Appule
Dragon Ball character
Japanese Name アプール (Apūru)
Manga Debut Dragon Ball Chapter 247
Anime Debut Dragon Ball Z Episode 46

Biography
------------
Appule is an alien henchman that serves under Freeza. He goes on reconnaissance missions and performs tasks within Freeza's ship upon request, such as calling the Ginyu Special Force and tending to Vegeta in the rejuvenation chamber. Appule is killed by Vegeta upon his breaking out of the chamber.

Name
-------
Appule (アプール) is a pun on the English word "apple" (FOREVER citation here). Whereas "apple" is written as アップル (appuru) with a double "pp" sound, the character's name is written as アプール (apūru) with an elongated vowel sound in the middle. As a nod to the pun source, Kanzenshuu keeps the double "pp" from "apple" in our romanization of the name. To preserve the long vowel sound as the end, we append an "e" in the "ule" of our spelling.

(Production?)
---------------------------
Explanation here of character's appearance, and role split with Oran between the manga and the anime. Where appropriate, things like who initially designed the character if not Akira Toriyama, notes about their design or conception, etc.

(Abilities/Techniques?)
---------------------------
What gets listed here? For characters that seemingly have none, do we list video game techniques? Do we list video game exclusive techniques even for characters like Goku who have dozens already?

Performance
---------------
Detail of original Z versus Kai actors here.

(Notable Appearances?)
--------------------------
Inclusion in updated Wii version of "Sparking! NEO", kept in "METEOR", and some figure releases (like "Freeza's Force")
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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by linkdude20002001 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:42 pm

Characters' various names and various spellings should be listed somewhere (for all foreign dubs, as well as from official merchandising and games.)

If it's note-worthy, things like how Goku's dogi is based on the outfits of Chinese monk, and Toriyama wanting Goku to have a very simple/plain outfit.

I think having a voice actor list is essensial. I'm tired of going to Dragon Ball Wikia for that kind of info... I feel so dirty for even going there. Haha.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by B » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:47 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
  • What information about their appearance (meaning their debut and/or removal) in the series should be included, if at all?
Any production tidbits on why a character was introduced/removed should be mentioned somewhere on the page... Probably a "production" section, even if it would only be one line of "such-and-such character designer enjoyed drawing this character." Though it would probably be useful against rumors on when the series was supposed to end, who is the strongest Earthling, etc. And for people like Lunch who just disappear, that can be left in their bios. "She was never seen again until much later..."
VegettoEX wrote:
  • What information about their appearances in media other than the series itself should be included, if at all?
"Dragon Ball in other media" could be its own article at this point.
VegettoEX wrote:
  • What information about their relationships to other characters in the series should be included, if at all?
You can probably fit them in as mentions in their character biographies. A family tree article all on its own might be an option, but links to other family members shouldn't clutter up a character's "info box."
VegettoEX wrote:
  • If a small box were to be included toward the top of the article, what essential information should be included (traditionally name, first appearance, etc.)?
First/last appearance, birth dates, names as written in Japanese and English, titles(Demon King Piccolo, Turtle Sage, etc.), height, ages throughout the series where applicable...
VegettoEX wrote:
  • What information about a characters usage of special techniques should be included, if at all?
Perhaps an "abilities" section for the fighting characters, with mention of their signature moves, all linked to that technique's individual page.
VegettoEX wrote:
  • What type of analysis of the character, either by Kanzenshuu staff, community members, or professional/industry members should be included, if at all?
I think a character's general role and major contributions can be summarized rather succinctly. I won't name names, but other less professional Wikis feel the need to describe everything a character did scene for scene, in each arc. I can't see how that is necessary. Who would read that as opposed to the source material? If further information on a character is expanded on outside of the manga, that could be a little more in-depth as hard-to-find supplementary material in one easy place is one benefit of a Wiki.
VegettoEX wrote:
  • What is an appropriate length (rough number of sentences/paragraphs) for any and all of the above types of information inclusions?
Major characters should have two-three paragraphs of story recaps, while minor characters probably one.

EDIT: Yeah, for whatever reason, BBCODE is off and I can't figure out how to turn it on. I'm pretty sure I can, so I'll leave the post like this until I figure it out.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:59 pm

Name puns and kanji/kana spellings are high up there on my list of important issues. I think appearance is less of an importance in face of story elements and techniques, too.

As for actors and other stuffage, I think the wiki ought to cover only original productions. For example, listing Tenshinhan's actors (Suzuoki, Yamadera, Madono, Midorikawa) and their credits as said character. There's an argument that could be made for mentioning foreign language games (Dragon Ball Z: Sagas or one of the live action movies, for example), but otherwise I think we ought to focus squarely on only those who performed in original productions.

Creator analysis would also be interesting. Toriyama's funny comments aside, notes from Maeda, Nakatsuru and Yamamuro on the creation of their characters would be interesting. Critical reception seems a little less important so early on, but whatever floats your boat.

As for a small data box at the top of the article, I think that's where preliminary info (first appearances, redirects to discussion on voice actors and name meaning) can go.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:15 pm

VegettoEX wrote:[*]What information about a character's name should be included (spellings, adaptations, pun source, etc.), if at all?
There should obviously be one version of the name chosen to be used throughout the majority of the article, and I'd say whatever name is chosen should probably the most universally accepted one (for an example, while I know a lot of people here are switching to 'Blooma', I'd suggest 'Bulma' is probably still best for the main name in her article). Then in some early basic information, showcasing the other accepted names would be helpful as well. Same thing for the pun sources.

This is probably what you meant by adaptations, but I do think it'd be helpful to at least include the dub names (yes, even the much beviled 'Fr-i-eza') early on in the article too, or at least - if possible - have it to where if someone were to search on the Wiki with that name, it would know to re-route them to the proper article. And maybe an explanation on such cases, as to why certain dub names are deemed horribly wrong. Just so that everything possible is covered, and anyone new to the concept of a different spelling, and why one isn't acceptable, can read on why.
[*]What information about the design/look of the character should be included, if at all?
Hmm...stuff about what inspired the design, where there's actually cited proof? Like the bit about Goku's hair supposed to look like he's just woken up, bed hair; or the Namekian design origins to snails. That kind of stuff.
[*]What information about their appearance (meaning their debut and/or removal) in the series should be included, if at all?
It'd be overkill I think to list every single episode or chapter a character was in (even if it was done as a '1-10' type list rather than listing every single individual episode), but listing what was the first episode of each series they appeared in (as well as the corresponding manga chapter), and which episode and chapter were their last appearances, would be helpful.
[*]What information about their appearances in media other than the series itself should be included, if at all?
Despite what I said on episodes, I do think it'd be helpful to have some kind of list of every film and special they appeared in, since that's nowhere near the large amount of categories as doing all the episodes would be. And this is probably a 'duh', but maybe listing what they did in said outside-the-main-series appearances would be helpful as well, since I'd imagine there'd be something on each character's page about what they did from arc to arc in the main story.

Oh, and listing what video games they appeared in, and whether those appearances were playable in any form or were only menu characters, would be nice too.
[*]What information about their relationships to other characters in the series should be included, if at all?
I'd say keep this down to fairly basic, just listing who all they're blood related to or married to, and any close friends, rivals, and masters they may have had. Or students, on the opposite end.
[*]If a small box were to be included toward the top of the article, what essential information should be included (traditionally name, first appearance, etc.)?
This is a great place to put a lot of the stuff I was thinking of earlier. The main 'accepted' name for the rest of the article, the other accepted names, what names are not accepted (information on that could be placed later in the article though, to avoid clutter), their confirmed age at the start and end of the manga (and GT perhaps), gender, race, all that kinda stuff. Maybe list the two most notable voices for the role here as well, the original seiyuu and then the current dub voice.
[*]What information about a characters usage of special techniques should be included, if at all?
This should definitely be covered later into the article, maybe after the character synopsis and their contributions to each story arc and films and all that. Forms that are unique to only one thing or another (such as Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta) would probably need to be mentioned to only exist in that continuity or whatever too, to ease confusion.
[*]What type of production information (voice actors, character designers, etc.) should be included, if at all?
I definitely think all voice actors should be listed (at the very least from the Japanese side and from the English side), but I can't see any reason to go too into detail on them in the character articles. I don't know if you'd want to go this far, but maybe have the listing of each name be a link to a separate article on each actor or actress, that would then contain a list of their Dragon Ball roles, as well as perhaps roles in other shows that people may know them for. That kind of stuff is easy enough to find out pretty accurately through a mixture of ANN, Wiki, and Behind the Voice Actors though.
[*]What type of analysis of the character, either by Kanzenshuu staff, community members, or professional/industry members should be included, if at all?
Hmm...while this would be amazingly cool to see, it might also be overkill. This seems like the kind of thing that comes out in discussion on the forum all the time, rather than something to be on the wiki, IMO. Maybe a brief mention of how well received the character is, or something?
[*]What is an appropriate length (rough number of sentences/paragraphs) for any and all of the above types of information inclusions?[/list]
As lengthy as it needs to be. I can't really come up with a good answer to this one, I think with all of the right resources, these should end up pretty lengthy articles though. Maybe, if possible, implement various drop-boxes though, where people can turn on and off which information is showing up at any given time, if it looks like it's going to run on insanely long.

That's about all I can come up with at the moment. The only other thing I'd like to stress is as I said before, I really hope that dub stuff is at least mentioned in some capacity on the Wiki, even if it's only to the extent of explaining why things are wrong, in an effort to help teach the more dub-inclined fans, rather than just blanket ignoring all of it. I'd love for this to be a Wiki that I could link dub and sub friends alike to. Other than that, I can't think of anything else to request as of now.

I have high hopes for this project, so keep up all the great work guys!

Edit: Whoa, odd, coding seems to be down for me too. Did I click something without realizing it?

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:32 pm

We already have a Kanzenshuu style guide for name spelling adaptations. Those will be the ones exclusively used throughout the entirety of the wiki, in line with the exact same spellings in the rest of the site.
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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by Craddle » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:52 pm

I really enjoy the MFG info on all the characters. If you guys could do something similar to that and include a lot more info, I think that would impress everyone.

Reference: http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dragonba ... cter-a.htm

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by Herms » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:05 pm

Craddle wrote:I really enjoy the MFG info on all the characters. If you guys could do something similar to that and include a lot more info, I think that would impress everyone.

Reference: http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dragonba ... cter-a.htm
Ouch. Ow.

We, ugh...yeah, we can do better than that.

(They don't even have the right picture for Appule! Blasphemy!)
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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by Craddle » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:27 pm

Herms wrote:We, ugh...yeah, we can do better than that.

(They don't even have the right picture for Appule! Blasphemy!)

Oh god, I know you guys can do way better than that. I could do better then that on my own. LOL. I just meant that something similar to that, something that lists all the puns, profile pics, info, ect, would be a great addition to your site.

(Edit: BTW, don't bash something when you don't have anything better currently. This is a current source of info for people that refuse to use un-named POS wiki. That's like saying, "oh mine is way better then yours, but I don't have it yet.")

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by hleV » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:04 am

Why is BBCode off in this section? Can't properly quote the questions of the OP.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:16 am

I'll fix that coding issue. No need to quote, though. Please keep things as clean, organized, and concise as possible.

Branching off my earlier comment about name spellings (where I detailed that we already have a style guide here at Kanzenshuu for names, and the wiki -- being an extension of the site -- will use the same ones), we will obviously have redirects for certain international name adaptations (similar to the word censors here on the forum, which will likely be removed but that is the subject for another day).

I suppose I can also propose that perhaps the first section of the article can literally be the etymology of the name with an explanation for the Kanzenshuu-approved spelling. That would obviously be written by Kanzenshuu staff exclusively. That can cover the name pun, original kanji/katakana for the name, etc. all in one nice little package.
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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by hleV » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:05 am

VegettoEX wrote:What information about a character's name should be included (spellings, adaptations, pun source, etc.), if at all?
All the variations of ever officially used names in English; pun source.
Don't bother writing anything in Japanese, this wiki is not to teach people Japanese language. There should be a character's name written in Japanese, but not the info (or very little of it) of how it got translated to English.
Regarding Vegetto, an explanation for why it should remain as is because unlike Kakarot which is a pun to carrot, Vegetto isn't a pun to anything (the combination of Vegeta and Kakarot was made in Japanese language, so in English, the Japanese word should be used, because it's a made up word). Or just add various possibilities for Vegetto's name, including this one!
What information about the design/look of the character should be included, if at all?
Unless there's a problem with consistency, the main/intro image of the character should be taken from a full-color page of the manga, if they appear in one drawn big enough, in the front.
If in the manga, in time, there were any noticeable changes in the way the character is drawn (though I can't think of an example), they should be noted.
I'm not sure if there should be any images of how the character looked in the anime, because the anime had so many artists that it feels wrong to just put an image made by one or two of the them.
Perhaps there should be images of how some characters with supposedly the same clothes have different colors in different full-color pages.
Would probably be nice to see the various outfits of the characters as well.
There should be info about the character's height, skin/hair/eye color, etc. Don't bother too much with explaining the character's overall looks with words.
What information about their appearance (meaning their debut and/or removal) in the series should be included, if at all?
There should definitely be info regarding when the character first appeared, though I'm not sure in what form.
If a character is gone, it should only be noted if it's somewhat awkward of them to be gone (can't think of an example, as Lunch was explained to have gone after Tenshinhan, right?).
What information about their appearances in media other than the series itself should be included, if at all?
There should be notes of where the character has appeared, but I don't really follow what "the series" in this case are (are the movies included? Is GT included? Or is it just something like DBO?), so I don't know if there should be any more info than just that.
What information about their relationships to other characters in the series should be included, if at all?
Who the character married/is merried to/loves/loved.
Who the character has fought.
If a small box were to be included toward the top of the article, what essential information should be included (traditionally name, first appearance, etc.)?
If this is that kind of a box present in other wikis (and DB Wikia), then there should be info about the character's height, skin/hair/eye color, name variations, birth date.
If it's something else (like a box ABOVE the whole info block), there could be some Kanzenshuu-specific info, like why you chose to use a certain name for this character. I still think you should use Boo instead of Buu.
What information about a characters usage of special techniques should be included, if at all?
Perhaps a list of characters they used a certain technique against.
What type of production information (voice actors, character designers, etc.) should be included, if at all?
-
What type of analysis of the character, either by Kanzenshuu staff, community members, or professional/industry members should be included, if at all?
-
What is an appropriate length (rough number of sentences/paragraphs) for any and all of the above types of information inclusions?
I don't mind reading however much interesting info there is, so I don't have a set limit.
Last edited by hleV on Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:17 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by Herms » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:51 am

hleV wrote:Don't bother writing anything in Japanese, this wiki is not to teach people Japanese language.
Well, we pretty much have to feature the characters' names in Japanese somewhere. Can't really explain the how's and whys of translating the name without showing what you're translating from.
Craddle wrote:(Edit: BTW, don't bash something when you don't have anything better currently. This is a current source of info for people that refuse to use un-named POS wiki. That's like saying, "oh mine is way better then yours, but I don't have it yet.")
I don't see how that factors into it. That character guide has many inaccuracies. I don't need my own alternative character guide to point that out. That's like saying we couldn't point out the flaws in a DVD release without having our own alternative DVD release.
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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:10 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Branching off my earlier comment about name spellings (where I detailed that we already have a style guide here at Kanzenshuu for names, and the wiki -- being an extension of the site -- will use the same ones), we will obviously have redirects for certain international name adaptations (similar to the word censors here on the forum, which will likely be removed but that is the subject for another day).

I suppose I can also propose that perhaps the first section of the article can literally be the etymology of the name with an explanation for the Kanzenshuu-approved spelling. That would obviously be written by Kanzenshuu staff exclusively. That can cover the name pun, original kanji/katakana for the name, etc. all in one nice little package.
Sounds good to me. A redirect similar to the word filter here would still acknowledge those spellings in it's own way, so that works for me.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by linkdude20002001 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:11 pm

About (Abilities/Techniques?): I think we should list ALL attacks, but keep them organized and mention where they're used in the manga and anime, and if anime-only, mention that. For game attacks, mention that they're specifically from a game, and mention which game(s).

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by hleV » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:13 am

Herms wrote:
hleV wrote:Don't bother writing anything in Japanese, this wiki is not to teach people Japanese language.
Well, we pretty much have to feature the characters' names in Japanese somewhere. Can't really explain the how's and whys of translating the name without showing what you're translating from.
Yeah, I kinda messed that up. There should be a character's name written in Japanese, but not the info (or very little of it) of how it got translated to English.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:28 am

I completely disagree and, while we appreciate your input, that is one case where there's no way that we will take that suggestion into consideration.

Providing the name without any explanation is no help to anyone. At all. It serves no purpose. Why would we collect all of this knowledge and then not share it? This is the perfect opportunity to do so. Kanzenshuu's focus has always been and will continue to be the original Japanese version of the franchise. To not expand on and share that knowledge is counter to our entire mission.

There will be a brief section explaining the name pun origin and the basis for Kanzenshuu's spelling. See the Appule rough example above.
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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by hleV » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:34 am

Oh, well I guess I have too much trust in you to have you bother explaining things, and too little interest in Japanese. But I guess it's gonna be useful for others.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:05 am

About the techniques, I believe that every technique from every media should be included. We should have a list with all the techniques that a character used in the manga, and two different sub-categories listing the anime-only techniques, and the video game-only techniques. If the character has too many techniques (for example, Goku), then we could have his major moves in his page, and then a link to a different article with all the techniques.

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Re: Future Wiki: Page Template Discussion - Characters

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:08 pm

VegettoEX, the structure concept is great. May I add a suggestion? How about some interviews that have some exclusive information on certain characters or some interesting tidbits? Also, a suggestion for image on characters' bio, maybe you could put the image on top of the info you are going to post eventually, instead of on the side like Wikipedia and use Dragon Box as a source?

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