Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:47 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm
So I was doing some thinking and started wondering......

How much stronger did Broly's Ikari-based Human Oozaru power make him?

The likely answer is "however much arbitrarily stronger it needs to be to service the plot", and the most common technical answer is probably "10 times because it's just Oozaru". However, I'm not so sure.

The way I see it, maybe utilizing this power in a Human form increases its strength several fold compared to its evolutionary source. For example, we see that Broly gains the yellow eyes when SS Vegeta punches him and takes the punch much better before then powering up and starting to gain the advantage. Later on, we see Broly at first go into permanent yellow eyes and green aura before ten bulking up and gaining wild hair like he'd later ave in Super Saiyan.

My current probably-wrong headcanon on the matter is that Broly's unique mutation allows him to initially gain a 10 times boost in power before then expanding on it again with a further 10 times increase as the power levels out. Starts out as permanent base power, then a full new form on top of his base. I believe that this process also repeated when Broly went Super Saiyan; in that case, it was more of an "all-at once" deal that made him 100 times stronger than his Super Saiyan form.

So, in essence, this would also leave SSB at 10000 times stronger than current base form a.k.a. 200 times greater than Super Saiyan, SSG at 500-1000 times stronger than base and 50-100 times greater than Super Saiyan, regular Ikari at 100 times Broly's SS2-level base, and SS Full-Power at 5000 times on top of Ikari. So, Broly was about 2 times weaker than SSB Gogeta's full-power assuming the 2 were exactly equal in Super Saiyan form.
What makes you think that you need to come up with an alternative explanation to just say it is 10x? You don't seem to think it doesn't fit with the scaling of the scenes or the like, so I'm a bit confused.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:59 pm

I honestly don't think it's a simple "10 times"| one and done.

Knowing the boosts for the golden-haired Super Saiyan forms, the uniqueness of Broly's power, and my penchant for wanting nice and neat numbers that are both not too small and not too big, I just can't quite accept straight translation of Oozaru into Ikari.

Also, it doesn't quite jive with what I saw in the film, especially with how base Broly used that power to initially overtake SS Vegeta instantly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:11 pm

When Super Saiyan God Goku fought Beerus, he ended up passing his limits several times throughout. Do you think that is what happened with Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta during his battles with Fused Zamasu?

Is that why they were able to go from being closer to Goku Blacks level to Fused Zamasu's level?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:51 am

Bullza wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:11 pm
When Super Saiyan God Goku fought Beerus, he ended up passing his limits several times throughout. Do you think that is what happened with Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta during his battles with Fused Zamasu?

Is that why they were able to go from being closer to Goku Blacks level to Fused Zamasu's level?
I think that Goku definitely got stronger during the fight and throughout the arc, but I think that his performance against Zamasu is more just representative of the fact that his KHH was just exceptionally strong. He had exerted so much power in his body that it literally broke both of his arms. As far as I can tell, it is a KHH stronger than what his normal limitations would allow.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:59 pm
Also, it doesn't quite jive with what I saw in the film, especially with how base Broly used that power to initially overtake SS Vegeta instantly.
Don't you mean SSG Vegeta? Why couldn't this have been achieved by a 10 fold boost?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:26 am

That was probably the most powerful Kamehameha dished out in relation to the users power yet. Probably similar to what Vegeta did with the Final Flash against Jiren.

Before he did that though he was still holding off Zamasu's blast on his own despite the effort Zamasu was putting in.

It's awkward to say whether he's meant to be far stronger than them or not that much stronger than them. Logically he should be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta and Kefla but he doesn't seem to be.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:07 am

Bullza wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:26 am
That was probably the most powerful Kamehameha dished out in relation to the users power yet. Probably similar to what Vegeta did with the Final Flash against Jiren.

Before he did that though he was still holding off Zamasu's blast on his own despite the effort Zamasu was putting in.

It's awkward to say whether he's meant to be far stronger than them or not that much stronger than them. Logically he should be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta and Kefla but he doesn't seem to be.
I don't think he was, at least not initially.

Like the manga, I believe that the INITIAL Merged Zamasu that showed up before Goku killed his mortal half was only as strong as the full extent of SSB's power. In the manga, that was achieved by sealing off Ki leakage in the form; in the anime, that was achieved by the end of the Tournament of Power. An instance of a smaller power difference, maybe 2 times at most, resulting in greater performance than larger differences.

It's after that where Merged Zamasu starts to really power up. He starts off buffing himself up with his dead mortal half's capacity for Saiyan growth and his own corrupted immortality to push himself to new heights. Even then, however, only his dying purple half is able to put up a fight against SSB Vegito. It's only later where the rest of his body seems to catch up and he grows stronger still; even then, he's still at most only equal in power to Vegito at most at the cost of his speed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:46 am

Before he did that though he was still holding off Zamasu's blast on his own despite the effort Zamasu was putting in.
Yes, and even before that he and Vegeta were oneshot by Fused Zamasu's Lightning of Absolution. It doesn't matter if Goku eventually managed to hold his own against Fused Zamasu (which he only did because he eventually broke his own limits), you cannot ignore the fact that Fused Zamasu was steamrolling everyone for most of the previous episode.
So either Goku and Vegeta aren't all that far off Zamasu to the point Goku using Kaio-ken can shatter his Halo with one kick or Zamasu is several times stronger and he was overpowered just because.
Not "Just because", Fused Zamasu is the most arrogant and smug character in all of Dragon Ball, of course he wouldn't use his full power, let alone against lowly mortals. As for the fight with Goku, his inability to counter the Kaio-ken can easily be explained with Fused Zamasu being too distracted by, I don't know, half of his face being blown away to pay attention to the fight. Also Fused Zamasu probably didn't know what the Kaio-ken was despite having Goku's body and memories, hence why he didn't know how to react.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:46 am
Yes, and even before that he and Vegeta were oneshot by Fused Zamasu's Lightning of Absolution.
That did happen but then they stood back up, charged back at him claiming full power and when Zamasu did the same thing again, they completely no sold it.
Also Fused Zamasu probably didn't know what the Kaio-ken was despite having Goku's body and memories, hence why he didn't know how to react.
Still even after this he felt compelled to summon power from the rift calling himself a weak god. If he was so much stronger than them why did he need to call upon more power?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:39 pm

That did happen but then they stood back up, charged back at him claiming full power and when Zamasu did the same thing again, they completely no sold it.
Yes. And when they attacked Fused Zamasu himself, Fused Zamasu easily parried their blows with one hand and shattered their arms effortlessly.
Still even after this he felt compelled to summon power from the rift calling himself a weak god. If he was so much stronger than them why did he need to call upon more power?
People tend to think irrationally when they just had half of their face blown away.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:58 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:59 pm
I honestly don't think it's a simple "10 times"| one and done.

Knowing the boosts for the golden-haired Super Saiyan forms, the uniqueness of Broly's power, and my penchant for wanting nice and neat numbers that are both not too small and not too big, I just can't quite accept straight translation of Oozaru into Ikari.

Also, it doesn't quite jive with what I saw in the film, especially with how base Broly used that power to initially overtake SS Vegeta instantly.
Well, a preview said Broly was getting stronger as he fought during the film so I just think his base grew stronger.

IMO:

Ikari is 10 times.
Super Saiyan is 50 times.
Super Saiyan Full Power is 500 times.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:06 pm

In my opinion, when Broly powered up in his base form, he got triple as strong each time. I am saying this because, in order to comprehend the power-up itself, we have to determine what was Broly's power initially.

First things first, Broly powered-up in his Base 4 times, prior transforming into his Wrathful State. Subsequently, he got three times as strong with each power-up. Initially, he was below Vegeta's Base and powered up to match with him and probably surpass him in power, yet Vegeta's experience (backed by Goku's statements later on) gave him the upper hand.

Then, he powered up again and overpowered Base Vegeta, forcing him into his Super Saiyan State (around 75% of a Super Saiyan's power), hense overwhelming Broly. Then, Broly powered-up again (making himself 27 times stronger than his original Base) to push back SSJ Vegeta, who still had control of the fight. Then, he powered up again and was on par, or even more powerful than Vegeta (3×27=71 times his original Base) whether Vegeta didn't reveive any considerable power-ups in the fight to counter for Broly's extreme development.

This forced Vegeta into using the Super Saiyan God form. I have a theory as to how strong this transformation makes the user, but I will try to not use my headcannon here. Anyway, Vegeta was unfathomably stronger than Broly at this point, with the latter powering up once more in hope of defeating God Vegeta. It can be argued that Broly actually powered-up 5 times in his Base form, however I am inclined to believe that at least once, he wasn't able to fully power-up (when fighting for the first time against Super Vegeta), as he was instantly overpowered by the Prince. As such, Broly's initial power, which fell below even to Base Vegeta, is now on a level of 70+ times stronger. Now this is some epic power boost in just a few minutes. I mean, we kinda get that with the other Saiyans too, considering that in the ToP Goku and Vegeta got at least 20 times stronger in their Base forms, however, Broly's performance is peak Saiyan.

Back to the point, Broly suffered a crippling defeat at the hands of God Vegeta, hense his Saiyans instincts went crazy, which trigerred his "transformation" into the Wrathful state. My guess is that the Wrathful State has 2 stages. The one that Broly used against God Vegeta was the one which encompassed the true power of a Great Ape, as stated by Paragus. As such, his power multiplied by 10 times, which is what is widely accepted as the Great Ape's multiplier. While also powering up a little more, he gained this massive power boost, which elevated him in an entirely new level, in comparison to Goku and Vegeta. His above SSJ Base, was now an above SSJ3 Base, which would also be the only way for him to damage a Super Saiyan God. Although Vegeta put some effort, I believe that he was suprised by Broly and thus didn't use his full God power. He would, should the fight wasn't interupted by Goku, who wanted to face off against Broly. Vegeta was unscathed by the confrontation, but he experienced the power of a "Great Ape" Broly.

Regarding the two stages of Wrathful, when Goku prepared to fight the legendary Saiyan (if he is even supposed to be one anymore), Broly didn't stay on the same level. He clearly understood that he would need more power if he were to compete against the two Saiyans with the god forms. Subsequently, he began buffing even more and unlocked the second stage of the Wrathful state, which looks more muscular, with spiky hair and a more powerful aura, in comparison to his original Wrathful state which simply looked like a super fully-powered Base form. This "second" stage looks more like the A-type Super Saiyan (perhaps a homage to the original) rather than a Great Ape in Base. If so, then by unavoidably using my headcannon for the form of the A-type SSJ, the 2nd Wrathful state has a multiplier twice that of a Great Ape. This translates into Broly gaining a ×2 boost upon facing with Goku.

When against Goku, Broly is clearly on an advantage, with Base Goku being overwhelmed by Broly (unlike Vegeta, who didn't wait to be fully overwhelmed himself to power-up) and with him going SSJ but still having problems. However, Goku DID use way more power as a Super Saiyan God than Vegeta, as he was already experiencing a new power from Broly, instead of gradually learning his strentgh like Vegeta, who opted to "go with the flow". As such, God Goku, using his techniques as well, was too strong even for a Stage 2 Wrathful Broly. However, Broly received a temporary rage boost which helped him overpower Goku's technique and due to his adaptibility, he used the same technique on Goku, catching him by suprise. I doubt that this boost was a very great one, but Goku went back at full God mode to counter Broly, yet Broly powered-up again and this time he got a significant boost, allowing him to be on par with God Goku. This must have been a ×2 boost, for him to tank God Goku's attacks. But then he received ANOTHER power-up of the same scale and with Goku losing his footing, Broly went berserk on him.

After this beat down and a chat with Piccolo, Goku decided that it was the time for the big guns, meaning Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. I won't say a thing about what I believe of Blue's power, but it would make sense. No headcannon though, remember? XD Anyway, this fight has no power-ups for Broly. He is clearly on his "limit" and he is just utilizing 100% of what he can offer, while at the same time sharpening his skills, abilities, techniques, reflexes and instincts with Goku. Even if Broly overpowered God Goku, he doesn't do the same with Blue Goku. The more time passes the easier it is to understand that Goku isn't using his absolute full power as Blue. Perhaps Broly is on a level of 40-60% Blue. Enough to force Goku into a difficult fight, but not enough to overpower Blue Goku.

Then, everything changed. Freeza killed Paragus and Broly went beast mode. He transformed into a C-type Super Saiyan, while powering-up AT THE SAME TIME!!! His ×2 power-up still applies, but he also gets a multiplier for his new form. C-type SSJ is what I believe a manifestation of the "Legendary" or actually Full Power Super Saiyan's power. As such, Broly would get 2 times stronger in his overall power and then another 2 times stronger due to his new form. This would also explain why Goku and Vegeta as SSJBs weren't able to damage him a lot, but with them not being beat down like God Goku was. Fusion was the answer now.

Gogeta's Base should at least be at SSJG level, as he did fairly good against C-type Broly, but ultimately decided to go SSJ himself to fend off against the now massive (for some reason) opponent. As a Super Saiyan Gogeta has the upper hand. When entering the other dimension, Broly unlocks his final form. The Full Power Super Saiyan. He gets a final ×2 increase in strentgh as he now utilizes 100% of his SSJ power. He takes Super Gogeta by suprise and he answers with Blue. The fight is one-sided from now on. At the last moment after being pummeled, Broly recovers some of his strength, but fails to do anything and Gogeta goes for the kill. The rest you know.

To summarize, Broly received 4 power-ups in Base (×3 times boost), 2 in his Wrathful state (×2 times boost) and 1 in his C-type SSJ (another ×2 times boost). His multipliers are the following:
Stage 1 Wrathful= ×10 Base (Great Ape Mode)
Stage 2 Wrathful= ×20 Base (A-type SSJ Mode)
C-type Super Saiyan= ×25 Base
Full Power Super Saiyan= ×50 Base

This places Broly's Base power in that of above a Super Saiyan and if he retained his power-ups from the transformations, he would be nearly at the level of 3 SSJ2s or low SSJ3, in comparison to his original Base Form. This is how I view DBS: Broly's power scaling and I think that it is consistent.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:24 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:39 pm
Yes. And when they attacked Fused Zamasu himself, Fused Zamasu easily parried their blows with one hand and shattered their arms effortlessly.
Yeah and then after that he struggles to overpower Goku's blast so he's all over the place.
People tend to think irrationally when they just had half of their face blown away.
That's not irrational. He was overpowered, twice, so he felt like he needed more power in order to deal with his enemies. He must not have thought he had a sufficient amount of power in the first place.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:41 am

Bullza wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:24 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:39 pm
Yes. And when they attacked Fused Zamasu himself, Fused Zamasu easily parried their blows with one hand and shattered their arms effortlessly.
Yeah and then after that he struggles to overpower Goku's blast so he's all over the place.
People tend to think irrationally when they just had half of their face blown away.
That's not irrational. He was overpowered, twice, so he felt like he needed more power in order to deal with his enemies. He must not have thought he had a sufficient amount of power in the first place.
That's why I think that, numerically, Merged Zamasu wasn't that much stronger than them. In terms of performance, sure, but it's like Goku Black when he was getting stronger. He likely wasn't getting several times stronger than Goku or Vegeta, just percentage amounts that gave him the edge.

I generally think it was maybe a 2 times difference, a difference that was overcome by the end of the anime where SSB-level is as strong as Merged Zamasu initially was before he powered himself up and took on SSB Vegito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:05 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:47 pm
I could have sworn all gogeta blue stickers capped at 9600 in power, like UI Goku and Broly. Didn't know there was one with 9700 as its power. Is it secret rare or something?
I will investigate. I think they might want to portray Gogeta as superior to Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:25 am

Yeah and then after that he struggles to overpower Goku's blast so he's all over the place.
Why does it have to be Fused Zamasu? If anything, It's Goku who is all over the place. Going from easily oneshottable by an average ki blast of Fused Zamasu, to being able to single-handedly stand his ground against Fused Zamasu.
That's not irrational. He was overpowered, twice, so he felt like he needed more power in order to deal with his enemies. He must not have thought he had a sufficient amount of power in the first place.
Assumptions. Who says that he didn't have enough power? Maybe he did have enough power, he just overreacted and decided to get even more power, ignoring the fact that he already had enough.

What is a fact though is that he was just using a fraction of his power against Vegeta and Trunks, which is directly aknowledged in-universe by Vegeta.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:55 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:20 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:12 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm
I'm not sure. The movie never implied it was a power greater than Oozaru. They just said Oozaru power and left it like that.
That vagueness is why I hesitate to just leave it at 10 times and call it a day.
Probably because it doesn't make sense that a SSJ Vegeta tier Base Broly jumped to SSJ God Vegeta from just a 10x boost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:57 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:25 am
Going from easily oneshottable by an average ki blast of Fused Zamasu, to being able to single-handedly stand his ground against Fused Zamasu.
Right so as I said, he wasn't all that much stronger than Goku.

Perhaps he did the same thing he did with Beerus. He initially couldn't see Beerus' punches but after a few instances of limits and full powers, he got to a point where Beerus said he regretted seeking him out.

So maybe Goku went from dirt compared to Zamasu to over half as strong as him.
Who says that he didn't have enough power?
Zamasu, that's why he needed more power.
What is a fact though is that he was just using a fraction of his power against Vegeta and Trunks, which is directly aknowledged in-universe by Vegeta.
At what point was that said exactly?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:03 pm

Zamasu, that's why he needed more power.

Here's the thing, I know where you're coming from, but he didn't precisely say that he needed more power to defeat his enemies, he said that a weak God who couldn't defeat evil was worthless, which is not exactly the same, It's more nuanced. It could just be that Fused Zamasu thought that he had enough power, but after his humiliation, he no longer want to take any chances, he did not want to become a weak God like the others.
At what point was that said exactly?
After they were easily overpowered by Fused Zamasu's Blades of Judgement. Vegeta said that he was just toying with them. Then he called him a "bastard", because obviously Vegeta needs to prove that Saiyans truly are disrespectful savages.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Having Goku use a Kaioken x10 gives me enough room to have Zamasu way stronger than them but at the same time getting overpowered that he needed to go Corrupted.

It's fits nicely.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:27 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm
Having Goku use a Kaioken x10 gives me enough room to have Zamasu way stronger than them but at the same time getting overpowered that he needed to go Corrupted.

It's fits nicely.

We actually have no clue what version of Kakoken he used. It could have been Kaioken x20 as far as we know, or just Kaioken x2.
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