Kinokima wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:53 pm
HeroR wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:14 pm
Kinokima wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 pm
Fair enough but I still would argue that confirms the initial idea of the arc was Toriyama. How the arc shaped and what it ultimately became we don’t know whether the “culprit” was Toyo or Toriyama beyond designs attributed to Toyo and a secret of a character attributed to Toriyama ( who I assume is Merus)
Basically though it doesn’t say the arc is all Toyo’s arc but a collaborative effort between both of them. People are trying to discount Toriyama because they just want to continously blame anything they don’t like on Toyo
This isn’t anything new though
This is honestly a simplification. Like people know that Toriyama approved of the manga's TOP, but very few people like the manga TOP even if Toriyama signed off on UI Roshi. That and people have no problem circle jerking Toriyama's direct work like Dragon Ball Minus and Resurrection 'F'. Hell, it was Toriyama's idea to blow up Trunks' timeline and send him to a close enough timeline, and people have complained that was a terrible end to Trunks' story.
And as for the Manga TOP I continuously saw ppl blame it all on Toyo. In fact in this very thread someone accused him of rushing the TOP arc so he could get to this arc
Toriyama approves everything regardless whether it’s Toyo’s idea or not.
Also even if Toyo has more involvement in this arc. Toriyama is still involved. But ppl will still put all the blame for everything they dislike on Toyo whether he came up with it it not.
As for ppl blaming Toriyama for things they don’t like sure. But he certainly doesn’t get as much ongoing ridiculous criticism as Toyo gets
Now obviously some things like not liking Toyo’s art or when we know an idea is directly his (because he said so) I can understand the direct criticism. But saying this arc is filler or bad because it’s all Toyo is ridiculous.
Actually, the theory was that he rushed the TOP to do an adaption of Broly, which everyone and their mother thought Toyo was going to adapt based on statements he made.
Toriyama approving something doesn't make it good by nature, as other have pointed out. You just need to see people's reaction to Resurrection 'F' and Minus here. And people on this site and others have called Toriyama out for allowing Toyo to do the stuff he has done in the manga with UI Roshi being the most standout example. In fact, several people wondered who thought that was a good idea and said okay too Toyo. And Toriyama doesn't get as much ongoing criticism as Toyo because a) Toriyama personally writing anything is rare today with Jaco, Minus, the rewrite of Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and Broly being his only direct work since 2013, and b) Toriyama regardless of his modern writing still has old word to look back on at his peak while Toyo doesn't, and c) at the end of the day Toyo is writing the story even if he is following the Toriyama's outline and ideas. Honestly, if this arc proved anything, it's that Toriyama isn't a very good editor.
I say this arc is bad because Toyo is a mediocre writer and this arc really highlights his flaws as a writer. He took an idea of a magical, planet eating goat and implemented it and the more boring way possible to the point that minor villain Babidi comes out as more interesting, not helping that Moro has the most standard Dragon Ball villain personality with none of the charm. Meerus is written like a bad OC you find in fanfics, the pacing is off to the point that several chapters could have been merged or not needed like the early invasion of Earth (Moro was coming to Earth anyway, so having the Z-Fighters rushed to meet this new threat like the Saiyan Saga is more interesting than taking the Cell Games route), options are never mentioned like Evil Containment Wave or why isn't Shin involved and talking to Beerus about his lack of action, especially when their universe just got off the chopping block for this kind of crap, why does Goku needs Meerus to get UI over Whis since all Meerus been doing is beating the shit out of Goku and why is UI even the answer to energy sucking to begin with?
I could go on, but I hope I see my point. While this arc is better than Toyo's TOP (which honestly isn't say much), he still has the similar weaknesses to his previous work and comes off as worse since the plot is so weak and forced in many places, and Toriyama not correcting these issues just tells me that he isn't the editor Toyo needs.