Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Zelvin » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:25 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:39 pm
theherodjl wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:33 pm
Here's what Herms said on the SEG and Goku struggling with it.
Herms wrote:
It’s worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku’s weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. Goku’s never shown using Bukujutsu during any of his gravity training on Kaio’s or in the spaceship (at least not in the manga, that I can remember). It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.
So basically, as others have said in this thread, Goku's muscles reached their maximum some time ago, and while transformations can seemingly push that further, as shown with Super Saiyan, most of the "planet destroying" power comes exclusively from ki. Goku isn't lifting using ki or anything (besides himself with flight.) Hence the difficulty.
And yet at the end of Super they flat out state they have no limits and as early as the 3rd episode Goku was benching vastly more than he was while flying in the Buu Saga. Levitating wouldn't make that much difference. Especially when you consider that levitation/flight isn't that different from telekinesis. And we've seen the kind of mass that can be moved with that.
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We've also seen, in the anime at least, Vegeta training at 500g's. With his official weight a 123lbs, that means Vegeta's body would weigh over 30tons. Or if we stick to the Manga 400g's, around 25tons. In which case Vegeta, leading up into the Android Arc, was already close to flying and moving around with the same degree of weight that Goku was in the Buu Saga while in Other World. So the explanation doesn't really work. Again though, it's more like Toriyama just forgot things. As he often does.

There is also the fact that in the Buu Saga, Goku was holding up a large block of kachin. Which is the densest metal in the 7th Universe. Which would mean it has a higher density than osmium.
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That block is about as tall as Goku Let's say 6ft squared. Making the blocks volume about 216 cubic feet. If it was made of osmium, it would weigh over 136tons. As katchin is the densest metal in the universe, I would argue that block would weight at least several times that number. Meaning that, again, we're seeing how low the 40ton thing really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P22F17cYWng
I am aware he said hardest, however density can affect this. Not that it always does, but the denser an object, the more tightly packed its molecules, the harder the surface. Despite diamond being one of the hardest substances in the world, diamond's tensile strength is rather weak. Whereas the katchin is not just hard, but it's dense and it broke the Z-sword with how hard Goku threw it. Which also shows how strong Goku is as he even held it aloft one-handed.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:19 pm

Wasn't Freeza's telekinesis supposed to be a special power of his and not the same as the ability of other characters to move things around with their ki? So Freeza could probably use it to lift and move much heavier things than another character without that specific ability.

Kachin is also said to be the strongest material, not the densest. Those are quite different. Lots of materials IRL are super strong and lightweight, like carbon fiber.

Another thing to point out is that the Z Sword was obviously weaker than the Kachin, since it broke against it, but it was also heavier, as Goku and Gohan had more trouble lifting the sword than the much larger Kachin block. So the sword might be much denser, but less durable.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:56 am

Didn't Beerus say that Magetta weighed "over" 1,000 tons?

So if you want to be absolutely literal, then Magetta could have weighed a million tons, and Beerus' comment wouldn't technically be wrong.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:56 pm

Galan007 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:56 am
Didn't Beerus say that Magetta weighed "over" 1,000 tons?

So if you want to be absolutely literal, then Magetta could have weighed a million tons, and Beerus' comment wouldn't technically be wrong.
Its an arbitrary figure to start from though. If Magetta actually weighs one million tons then why start at one thousand tons as the base that is exceeded? Describing something by 1/1000th of its true weight makes no sense in this context.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:47 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:56 pm
Its an arbitrary figure to start from though. If Magetta actually weighs one million tons then why start at one thousand tons as the base that is exceeded? Describing something by 1/1000th of its true weight makes no sense in this context.
I'm just commenting on the ambiguity of the statement.

If we want to be completely literal, then Magetta could have weighed 1,001 tons, or he could have weighed a million tons. Beerus' comment would still technically hold true for either value, as they are both "over" 1,000 tons.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Zelvin » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:50 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:19 pm
Wasn't Freeza's telekinesis supposed to be a special power of his and not the same as the ability of other characters to move things around with their ki? So Freeza could probably use it to lift and move much heavier things than another character without that specific ability.

Kachin is also said to be the strongest material, not the densest. Those are quite different. Lots of materials IRL are super strong and lightweight, like carbon fiber.

Another thing to point out is that the Z Sword was obviously weaker than the Kachin, since it broke against it, but it was also heavier, as Goku and Gohan had more trouble lifting the sword than the much larger Kachin block. So the sword might be much denser, but less durable.
It's never been said that TK was linked to ki in the series and Guldo was the one noted as having special psychic powers. Not Freeza. Never mind that Chouzu used this in Dragon Ball and even Roshi had telepathy. Also there's no evidence suggesting the Z-sword was made of a weaker material than katchin. What we do see is that Gohan isn't a good swordsman with the way he tried to cut the block. He caught the tip on the flat side of the block and swung it almost like it was a baseball bat. It doesn't help that Goku hurled the block of katchin and that it was spinning, which adds rotational force to the mix. Plus Goku was stronger than Gohan at the time.

Both objects could have the same hardness, except one of them is slim and in the shape of a blade, while the other is a completely solid block. Even if both objects moved with the same speed, the block is going to have significantly greater force behind it due to it's far greater mass and surface area. Meaning it would have to have been thrown with more force for it to be at the same velocity as the Z-sword.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:39 pm

That's just poor writing. Funny how people complained about base Goku in GT struggling to lift a building full of people but hardly anyone mention this scene with Mageta.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Zelvin » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:21 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:39 pm
That's just poor writing. Funny how people complained about base Goku in GT struggling to lift a building full of people but hardly anyone mention this scene with Mageta.
Because if you don't talk about the bad writing, then it must not exist, right? As we've been seeing more and more; Toyotaro is just a bad writer. Good artist, but bad writer.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:33 am

Zelvin wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:50 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:19 pm
Wasn't Freeza's telekinesis supposed to be a special power of his and not the same as the ability of other characters to move things around with their ki? So Freeza could probably use it to lift and move much heavier things than another character without that specific ability.

Kachin is also said to be the strongest material, not the densest. Those are quite different. Lots of materials IRL are super strong and lightweight, like carbon fiber.

Another thing to point out is that the Z Sword was obviously weaker than the Kachin, since it broke against it, but it was also heavier, as Goku and Gohan had more trouble lifting the sword than the much larger Kachin block. So the sword might be much denser, but less durable.
It's never been said that TK was linked to ki in the series and Guldo was the one noted as having special psychic powers. Not Freeza. Never mind that Chouzu used this in Dragon Ball and even Roshi had telepathy. Also there's no evidence suggesting the Z-sword was made of a weaker material than katchin. What we do see is that Gohan isn't a good swordsman with the way he tried to cut the block. He caught the tip on the flat side of the block and swung it almost like it was a baseball bat. It doesn't help that Goku hurled the block of katchin and that it was spinning, which adds rotational force to the mix. Plus Goku was stronger than Gohan at the time.

Both objects could have the same hardness, except one of them is slim and in the shape of a blade, while the other is a completely solid block. Even if both objects moved with the same speed, the block is going to have significantly greater force behind it due to it's far greater mass and surface area. Meaning it would have to have been thrown with more force for it to be at the same velocity as the Z-sword.
It's just that a lot of Freeza's iconic moves are telekinetic based, much more than other characters who don't focus on such powers. They did a callback to it in the ToP when he was throwing blocks of the arena at Jiren. It seems that there are two types of telekinesis in Dragonball - the first type that anyone with good enough ki control can use, and the second type which is a specific special power, used by characters like General Blue, Chaotzu, and Freeza. It was specifically pointed out that the former two had 'unusual powers' that weren't just the typical ki-based abilities.

The second type seems to be more versatile, powerful, and precise.

As for the Kachin and the Z Sword, even if they were the same hardness, the sword would still be denser due to its much smaller size.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:22 am

Zelvin wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:25 pm
That block is about as tall as Goku Let's say 6ft squared. Making the blocks volume about 216 cubic feet. If it was made of osmium, it would weigh over 136tons. As katchin is the densest metal in the universe, I would argue that block would weight at least several times that number. Meaning that, again, we're seeing how low the 40ton thing really is.
The problem with this argument is that it would require Toriyama to know how much Katchin that block weighs and then expect fans at home to do the math. If Vegeta weighs 18 tons in 300g and Goku struggled to lift 40 tons, it's possible they didn't get much stronger in base since the Cell saga and most of their gains went to their SSJ forms.

I think a lot of the inconsistencies among these feats come from fans inflating the characters' power and expecting them to be far stronger than Toriyama intended. Feats are meant to get the point across that the character has improved since the last stated feat. I would have a problem with it if Goku struggled to lift one ton or something but I think it's consistent enough as long as what he lifted was more than the last confirmed lifting feat given. Same with Magetta since it's the first time a weight has been stated since Goku training in the Buu saga.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:37 am

Really, it's the durability argument that puts this whole thing into question.

Freeza is confirmed to be able to handle a planet exploding in his face while on the brink of death from being cut in half and getting blasted by Super Saiyan Goku from that era without any problem; he seems to be left closer to death from the latter 2 than the former.

Meanwhile, characters continue to punch and take hits far above this level; we know they gotta be at this level because a planet's explosion has nothing to do with Ki, yet Freeza takes it just fine. Just from this alone, if their enhanced physical capabilities are anywhere near balanced (which I assume Toriyama would intend given how he put emphasis on forms being useless due to reasons like bad stamina or energy drain), they ought to be able to lift a whole lot more simply through the side effect of enhancing their bodies with Ki.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:40 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:37 am
Meanwhile, characters continue to punch and take hits far above this level; we know they gotta be at this level because a planet's explosion has nothing to do with Ki, yet Freeza takes it just fine. Just from this alone, if their enhanced physical capabilities are anywhere near balanced (which I assume Toriyama would intend given how he put emphasis on forms being useless due to reasons like bad stamina or energy drain), they ought to be able to lift a whole lot more simply through the side effect of enhancing their bodies with Ki.
That makes sense. It could be training and focusing their ki allows them to hit harder while their lifting strength doesn't increase at the same rate. If BSSJ Kale is above SSJG, that would make her at least several hundred or thousands of times more powerful than SSJ Vegeta but she still had to exert effort to lift Magetta.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by The Undying » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:28 am

Skar wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:22 am
The problem with this argument is that it would require Toriyama to know how much Katchin that block weighs and then expect fans at home to do the math.
That was my point in my last post ITT. Not a single shonen artist is going to project lifting calculations based on the exact size, density, mass, etc. of what they're drawing; especially not Toriyama. That's both hilarious and ridiculous on its face.

Besides, everything is physically impossible at the outset. Realistically speaking, Goku cannot weigh 137 pounds and be able to punch apart mountains or compete with characters that can survive planetary explosions. If the story isn't based on physics and calcs, it can't be inferred from them.

The actual number Toriyama used isn't mathematically inconsistent with the one Toyotaro used. That's the important bit to keep in mind.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Zelvin » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:25 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:28 am
Skar wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:22 am
The problem with this argument is that it would require Toriyama to know how much Katchin that block weighs and then expect fans at home to do the math.
That was my point in my last post ITT. Not a single shonen artist is going to project lifting calculations based on the exact size, density, mass, etc. of what they're drawing; especially not Toriyama. That's both hilarious and ridiculous on its face.

Besides, everything is physically impossible at the outset. Realistically speaking, Goku cannot weigh 137 pounds and be able to punch apart mountains or compete with characters that can survive planetary explosions. If the story isn't based on physics and calcs, it can't be inferred from them.

The actual number Toriyama used isn't mathematically inconsistent with the one Toyotaro used. That's the important bit to keep in mind.
That argument doesn't fly. A fictional universe with aliens that can breathe in space, magical gum monsters and literal deities that oversee the universe takes your "realism" argument and shoves it into the incinerator. The problem is trying to set a numerical figure that is easily proven to be incorrect. Placing blame on the fans doesn't help. Again, Toriyama is just forgetful and sometimes uses numbers without much thought out into it. Toyotaro is just a terrible writer. And yes, we can use math to absolutely prove that 40tons would mean nothing to Goku and that Magetta's supposed weight stated by Toyotaro is most certainly inconsistent and blatantly ridiculous.

Remember when Goku was a kid? Before he learned to use ki?
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:19 pm

Pushing a rock along the ground is a lot easier than carrying its weight on your body while flying though.

I mean I can push some pretty heavy things a fair distance if I put my mind to it, but no way in Hell could I lift most of them.

IIRC, in the anime Mr. Satan was able to pull multiple buses, but does that mean he could have lifted them? I don't think so.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by The Undying » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:23 pm

Zelvin wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:25 pm
That argument doesn't fly. A fictional universe with aliens that can breathe in space, magical gum monsters and literal deities that oversee the universe takes your "realism" argument and shoves it into the incinerator.
Read what you're responding to instead of repeating what I said.

Characters exerting force well beyond what their body mass is capable of throws all pretensions of fan extrapolations and "realism" out the window, which is what your entire argument is contingent on. That already takes whatever speculative calculations you can muster and promptly throws them right into the garbage bin. They're worthless.

Toriyama doesn't draw every boulder, rock and explosion painstakingly thinking about their precise measurements and its implications for weight-lifting as far as individual capabilities are concerned. He didn't "forget" how many tons Goku can lift, he just threw out a number that genuinely reflected how much weight he believes Goku can lift in his base state.

It's less than 40 tons. That's it.

Read what you're responding to.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:39 pm

At the end of the day, it seems so ridiculous because we can see how far they can go in every other aspect. Their strength, speed, and durability continue to skyrocket, but then they somehow can't lift a little bit of weight on top of that?

It's an odd dissonance to have, that's for sure, especially for a series where a balance of your abilities is key to becoming a better fighter; one would think that strengthening yourself with Ki and having it amplify everything else (striking power, movement and reflex speed, ability to take blows, etc.) should also apply to lifting strength.

At least with being taken off-guard or someone getting in a solid blow you didn't see coming, there's some manner of sense given how Ki is something that someone has to actively maintain and can be bypassed if your opponent isn't prepared to take a given hit.

But lifting stuff? That's small fry and should be coming with the package deal of strengthening your body with this mystical life energy stuff; even master martial artists can still lift well simply as a byproduct of their training in every other aspect strengthening their bodies.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:23 am

I'm just going to go ahead and chalk it up to Beerus' ignorance on how much Magetta must truly weigh. He says "over 1,000 tons" but that clearly is just a guess by Beerus, the same way you might ask the average person how much a Blue Whale weighs and their answer being along the lines of "heavier than a truck?".
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:46 pm

I just assumed Magetta had the ability to make himself heavier at will.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Thani » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:48 pm

I think a lot of the inconsistencies among these feats come from fans inflating the characters' power and expecting them to be far stronger than Toriyama intended
That's just it. It's not like the measurements are wrong, it's just... Toriyama never cared about that stuff. Never. So if Magetta only weights a little more than 1.000 tons, that's it. That must mean that the massive weights that Goku was lifting in the beginning of Super also weights a lot less than 1.000 tons. Makes sense? No. Stupid? Yeah. But it's canon. 1.000 tons is too much for a Super Saiyan to lift. The faster y'all accept this fact, the better.

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