"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:16 pm
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:14 pm
Unless Moro becomes the universe or something, Zeno shouldn't be called. At least I think. Unless Moro becomes some black hole capable of sucking the multiverse away, Whis at worst, should do something to the best of his ability.
I really hope things don't go that far, as I was never a fan of Zamasu doing that. I know DB can get crazy, but that's a bit much for me.
Let's just hope Zeno ain't summoned, because everyone is fucked at that point. Might as well throw in the towel and bow down to Zeno in hopes he'll erase Moro at that point. It'll be ridiculous writing, but hey, if Moro can become Super Perfect Moro that can literally become the planet, I guess anything is possible.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:29 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:26 pm
Let's just hope Zeno ain't summoned, because everyone is fucked at that point. Might as well throw in the towel and bow down to Zeno in hopes he'll erase Moro at that point. It'll be ridiculous writing, but hey, if Moro can become Super Perfect Moro that can literally become the planet, I guess anything is possible.
If I had to pick between Moro and Zeno, I'd take my chances with the goat. At least with him they may be able to convince him to find another planet to eat. Good luck bribing Zeno with anything.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:32 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:29 pm
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:26 pm
Let's just hope Zeno ain't summoned, because everyone is fucked at that point. Might as well throw in the towel and bow down to Zeno in hopes he'll erase Moro at that point. It'll be ridiculous writing, but hey, if Moro can become Super Perfect Moro that can literally become the planet, I guess anything is possible.
If I had to pick between Moro and Zeno, I'd take my chances with the goat. At least with him they may be able to convince him to find another planet to eat. Good luck bribing Zeno with anything.
Another Survival Tournament for his own amusement?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:34 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:32 pm
Another Survival Tournament for his own amusement?
I...I hope this doesn't lead into another tournament. :sick: If there's any issue with the grand priest, I can see Goku offering Zeno to take part in another tournament to get him off his back. :crazy:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:38 pm

Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:18 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:40 am
Since this is Dragon Ball, where death doesn't matter, it wouldn't surprise me if Merus somehow comes back.
Tell that to Trunks timeline.
That's the outlier really.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:40 pm

I don’t think Zeno will be summoned again. It might be a bad ending but I don’t see them doing the exact same ending they did before.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:53 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:18 am
Ziegander wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:21 pm
Uh... no. Actually. Maybe you're missing some things.
I haven't 'missed' anything. Those translations were out with the scans even before you stated you'd give the chapter the benefit of the doubt, which you are now conspicuously not doing. So, you did a total about-face on the strength of information we already had, like I said.
Wow, okay. I mean, if your take on this is that I pretended to not know about the translations when I initially posted and then later I pretended that I hadn't previously known about the translations just so I could feign outrage... I don't know what to say to you. Nothing, I guess.

Don't take me at word on it, if you want. I guess. That's your prerogative, but then we don't really have anything left to discuss. I saw the initial spoilers, it was kind of dumb, but understandable, nothing for me to get upset about.

I later saw the translations, which, if they were available with the scans, I did not see them together. It was a few hours later when I saw them. You can see, I posted when I saw them. I said something to the effect of already eating my words. So, from that point my opinion was already beginning to sour on the direction of the chapter.

But don't believe me if you don't want to.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:21 pm
Now we have additional scans that we did not have a few days ago when I said I'd be interested to read the rest of the chapter.
We have 2 extra pages from that time. You have still not read the whole chapter. Hence my comment on how bizarre your change of tune is.
Whether or not you believe 2 additional pages with massive additional context and reveals is enough for me to completely change my opinion is irrelevant. The translation + those 2 pages was enough to change my opinion, and thus it did. I can't help it if you find that bizarre, but when presented with new information, I reserve the right to change my opinions.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:21 pm
Ah, sorry, I just reviewed ch. 63, I had thought he sealed all three, but then the new scan of him having a fully-functioning, unharmed jewel with Merus' powers still inside made me assume my memory must have been wrong.

But that really doesn't change my point.
I mean, it really does.
It really doesn't. Did you even read my post?
Magnificent Ponta wrote:Merus did what he set out to do and succeeded.
He actually didn't? Not only is he an Angel who supposedly has extensive knowledge of Moro, but he broke Angel law and erased himself from existence and he, apparently, didn't even actually succeed in sealing off Moro's absorption? Worse than that, he actually gave Moro the opportunity to steal an Angel's power, his power.

It makes Merus look utterly incompetent and makes his sacrifice meaningless.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:It's hardly obvious from an in-universe perspective that the severed hand should be able to do anything (after all, it's not like Piccolo can reattach lost limbs, as far as we know, and Moro doesn't have any other abilities that can obviously restore the dead hand to him), and really, it's just running the same beat the Buu arc played with in terms of there being 'a small piece left behind that was overlooked'.
And yet, Merus is supposed to be above mortal beings, and considering Merus is the one who severed Moro's hand and considering Merus knew that he needed to destroy the jewels to seal Moro's absorption, and considering Merus watched Moro literally eat an android in order to acquire this absorption power, yes, it is actually incredibly stupid for him to leave the jewel intact if said jewel has the power to copy the powers of an Angel, even if it's not obvious that Moro, at that very moment, can take advantage of that.

I agree, you're right, it's not obvious to us the readers that the severed hand could be used to absorb Merus' powers, and beyond that, be employed in some way by Moro to acquire those powers after the hand had been separated from Moro's body. But we're not Angels and we're also not removing ourselves from existence and knowingly leaving that jewel behind, untouched, while we do so. Are you not getting this? Countless fans were expecting Moro to use that hand to gain Merus' powers. Nobody knew how Moro would do it, but plenty of people saw the writing on the wall. Merus didn't need to know how Moro would do it, he just needed to suppose that Moro might be able to somehow. Not taking the precaution of destroying that jewel when you're throwing your existence away and also putting the universe at risk just because, "well, it's probably fine," is stupidly inept. It would be even for Goku, but Merus is supposed to be more aware and more intelligent than that.

My point was that Moro acquiring Angel powers makes Merus look stupid for "forgetting" about the severed hand, as you said.
But of course, you being straightforwardly wrong about this 'doesn't change anything'. Naturally. How could it?
That I was mistaken about Merus leaving Moro's left hand jewel intact after previously severing his left hand doesn't make Merus look any smarter. Okay, he did think to destroy the new jewel on Moro's new left hand, but he still left one jewel intact, the one jewel that actually made contact with him, the one jewel that might have copied his Angel powers. But he forgot about it.

Yes. That makes Merus look incompetent.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: So, to summarise:
  • 4 days prior, you had not read the chapter. You were cautiously reasonable.
  • 4 days from that point, you had still not read the chapter. You were frothing.
  • You have not read the chapter - and I feel like I must stress this - because the chapter isn't even out yet.
  • To help justify the lather you've worked yourself up into, you have made a basic error of fact about a chapter that has been out for 2 months.
I'm sorry, but not properly reading chapters we actually have, so you can excuse frothing over a chapter you haven't even read yet, is just peak Dragon Ball 'fandom' right now. This couldn't be a more perfect example of the kind of behaviour I've been decrying, not even if you'd gift-wrapped it and put a pretty bow on it.

Totally astonishing.
I'm happy you feel so smug about it. It's not going to change my mind about the spoilers we've seen when I do read the rest of the chapter. There's no way to dress up "Goku had an idea that literally no one could expect to work," and "Moro has Angel powers now," as things I'm going to enjoy. I've gone to elaborate lengths to explain why. It's cool, you don't agree. That's fine too. I went from cautiously reasonable to frothing because we went from "Goku gives Moro a senzu bean" to "Goku gives Moro a senzu bean so that Moro will promise to turn himself in (after eating the senzu bean), and then Moro understandably doesn't and, oh, is also Angel-Tier now, lol." That's... if you can't see how that's a HUGE flip in the script, a massive difference from where we were 4 days ago, there's no consensus to reach here.

Obviously we don't have to agree, but you're not standing on some high hill of logic and reason above me simply because you're "waiting for the full chapter" before passing judgment on what we've already got. There's no argument that can "prove me wrong," or paint you as objectively correct here, but, please, do continue to talk down at me like you're above me.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:08 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:53 pm
But don't believe me if you don't want to.
I believe you just fine. It doesn't change that the information was already out there at the time, or how bizarre and premature your about-face is. Which is the point.
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:53 pm
I can't help it if you find that bizarre, but when presented with new information, I reserve the right to change my opinions.
That's my precise and entire point - the amount of information you have is incomplete, which makes this an unjustifiable snap judgement. You're declaring that the whole of Super is going to be "trash" off of 25% of a chapter you haven't actually read yet. How is that reasonable by any stretch of the imagination?
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:53 pm
He actually didn't?
Was Moro's ability sealed off, or not? I get you don't like that something was overlooked, but stick to the facts, please. You've made a lot of assumptions about what you think Merus 'ought' to know, for which I haven't seen any justification in the material.
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:53 pm
It's not going to change my mind about the spoilers we've seen when I do read the rest of the chapter.
Of course not. It's not like you haven't read the whole chapter before nailing your colours to the mast specifically after proclaiming you would give the benefit of the doubt, or anything.

I don't make any apologies for advocating a reasonable, non-kneejerk reaction to the material. Like I said, you can dislike whatever you want; I won't judge you for disliking things - but you should at least do it with all the facts in hand. And yes, it is totally unreasonable to do otherwise, whether you or anyone else is doing it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:33 pm

HeroR wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am
it really isn’t up to Toei to make a new Dragon Ball series with Toriyama. That actually falls into the owners if SJ since Toei is just an animation partner. It’s obvious that Super was rushed because of the success of Resurrection ‘F’ and they wanted to strike when the iron was hot. While Toei probably could have and should of pushed for more time, everyone was eager to get Dragon Ball back on TV ASAP. Also not helping that outside of exceptions, Dragon Ball has always been done on the cheap.
We know it was rushed but I'm asking for the evidence that Shuiesha was involved and it wasn't Toei decision when to start on the anime. I've never heard this explanation on here before. I've heard the theory that Toei didn't have an available anime for that timeslot so they rushed DBS to fill it. They could've rushed a different anime but maybe they assumed they could get away with a few cours of poor production for DB compared to a new series. In this case, brand recognition and the fact that it was a revival of one of the most successful shonen franchises helped because I don't think any new anime series could've lasted that long with the same production value.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:08 pm
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:53 pm
But don't believe me if you don't want to.
I believe you just fine. It doesn't change that the information was already out there at the time, or how bizarre and premature your about-face is. Which is the point.
Not sure why you find it so bizarre. The circumstances have changed, and so has my opinion.

You may feel it's premature, that's fine. I don't. I consider what I've seen to be trash, regardless of whatever the rest of the chapter does. I don't believe there's any context within which to frame what I've seen and read as good writing.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:53 pm
I can't help it if you find that bizarre, but when presented with new information, I reserve the right to change my opinions.
That's my precise and entire point - the amount of information you have is incomplete, which makes this an unjustifiable snap judgement. You're declaring that the whole of Super is going to be "trash" off of 25% of a chapter you haven't actually read yet. How is that reasonable by any stretch of the imagination?
I never said the whole of Super is going to be trash. I did say that this, meaning the material we have seen of this chapter, is garbage. I stand by that assessment. I actively hate it and find it all to be hacky writing that renders some of the good stuff from previous chapters as now less good. That's pretty bad writing if it is not only annoying by itself but manages to make other writing less good along with it. Maybe you disagree with that assessment. That's fine.

Maybe Super will somehow avoid hurtling the plotline into a direction that I will personally find awful. Maybe. I can't see how, and I'm not sure I trust Toyo and Toriyama to find a way that feels organic from where they've brought us currently, and that's part of the problem. I can only see Super going in a direction that I don't think seems to be quality writing. I never said Super is forever going to be trash and that everything from here on out is going to be trash. I did say, quite colorfully, that it seems Super is taking a shitty direction that resembles fan fiction. Okay, maybe that was discourteous. I don't know that will be the case, but we've spent two years simply inflating power levels and telling small story beats only to have them made irrelevant within a month or two for the sake of shock value. For the most part I have not found the latter half of this arc to be well-paced or well-written and the whole of the arc has had very little narrative substance, if any. Goku has mastered ultra instinct. That's really about the only lasting element we've gotten from this story. And Merus, a character that didn't exist before this arc, also doesn't exist (we think) after this arc. So... that's a zero-sum, there, unless there will be consequences for it. I would be ALL FOR consequences for the erasure of Merus. That would really be something. But ask around how likely anyone really thinks that's going to be. We'll see. I was not happy with this arc before MUI. Before MUI, I thought the idea of Goku finishing Moro off with MUI was boring. But then we got the MUI chapter and it was really, really good. I'm not all gloom and doom on Super. That was a great chapter. It restored my faith for a bit, but then I got let down again. Yeah, I'm salty about it. Is it possible that Toyo does have something interesting planned for the next arc? Totally. Can he write really solid scenes? Yeah, he's shown he can. Not sure about whole arcs, but he does manage some great individual scenes. The talent is there. I'm not trying to say all of Super is forever ruined by this arc, but I do think that this arc is overall way too long for how lackluster, inconsistent, and hacky it is. I was tired of it months ago. Yet another twist, yet another reversal of fortune, in a way that seems to leave the heroes no outs except to be saved yet again by outside forces. It's very unsatisfying, and it didn't have to be that way.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:53 pm
He actually didn't?
Was Moro's ability sealed off, or not?
I thought it was pretty clear. Obviously no, Moro's ability was not fully sealed off, otherwise he could not retrieve a jewel that had successfully copied the powers of an Angel and then used said jewel to take those powers for himself.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: I get you don't like that something was overlooked, but stick to the facts, please. You've made a lot of assumptions about what you think Merus 'ought' to know, for which I haven't seen any justification in the material.
Um... the facts are, Moro has a jewel that has a copy within it of Merus' powers. It seemed pretty clear to me. A jewel touched Merus' neck. Merus did not destroy that jewel. Moro has it now because Merus didn't destroy it. Yeah, Merus ought to know that he didn't destroy that jewel, the one jewel that he clearly did know touched his neck. He knows what those jewels do and how Moro uses them. I never said he ought to know how Moro might gain those powers from a jewel that he'd severed from his body, I only said that he does know, he does, what those jewels do and what Moro does with them. Yes, it is reasonable for Merus to not know how Moro might get his powers out of that jewel, in fact, it's even reasonable to assume Merus might not have thought the jewels could copy an Angel's powers. Many of us thought it would actually be unreasonable for the jewels to be able to do that. And yet many of us predicted that Moro had indeed copied his powers and would absorb them somehow. If the fans can deduce that it's at least possible for Moro to do that, and for many of the fans to presume that it's likely enough that he did and would gain Merus' powers, how is it nor reasonable, then, for Merus to come to the same conclusions? All I'm saying is, Merus not even giving it a thought, just assuming it's fine, forgetting about the arm that he himself severed, I'm saying that makes Merus seem pretty dumb. It diminishes his character. Now he's not this higher than mortal, cosmically aware being, he's just another strong guy that misses a fatally crucial element that was right in front of him. I think that's bad. Because not only did Merus miss it, but he gave up his existence on the sole basis of stopping that sort of thing from happening, but it happened anyway. Because Merus missed it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:48 pm

Skar wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:33 pm
HeroR wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am
it really isn’t up to Toei to make a new Dragon Ball series with Toriyama. That actually falls into the owners if SJ since Toei is just an animation partner. It’s obvious that Super was rushed because of the success of Resurrection ‘F’ and they wanted to strike when the iron was hot. While Toei probably could have and should of pushed for more time, everyone was eager to get Dragon Ball back on TV ASAP. Also not helping that outside of exceptions, Dragon Ball has always been done on the cheap.
We know it was rushed but I'm asking for the evidence that Shuiesha was involved and it wasn't Toei decision when to start on the anime. I've never heard this explanation on here before. I've heard the theory that Toei didn't have an available anime for that timeslot so they rushed DBS to fill it. They could've rushed a different anime but maybe they assumed they could get away with a few cours of poor production for DB compared to a new series. In this case, brand recognition and the fact that it was a revival of one of the most successful shonen franchises helped because I don't think any new anime series could've lasted that long with the same production value.

Despite popular belief, Toei can't do anything with Dragon Ball without Shuiesha's permission since they own Dragon Ball. Toei just have a license to make an anime. Think of it like Namco making Dragon Ball games. They can't make them without Shuiesha's say so. Although in Namco's case, they're actually under contract to make at least one Dragon Ball game a year. In short, if Shuiesha said no to Toei making a new anime, their wouldn't be a new anime. Just as if Shuiesha says 'we want a new anime', a new anime is going to be made.

That theory really doesn't make much sense when you consider that Toei refused to even consider making a Dragon Ball anime without Toriyama. The reason why Kai and Heroes even exist is because Toei wanted another Dragon Ball anime, but with Toriyama's help, and he said no. So Toei decided to revamp Dragon Ball Z into Kai while Bandai made Heroes. Super was born from Dragon Ball becoming extremely popular again after Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' and Toriyama being involved after nearly two decades of him being indifferent. So everyone decided it was the best time to bring Dragon Ball back and rushed the production. So while Toei does share blame with Super's rushed production, they're not the only guilty party, especially when I don't think even Toei wanted only a few weeks to get pre-production going.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:01 pm

On the subject of Angel Moro, frankly I expected him to look more regal and divine. I believe he only got white fur and a different eyeliner, which is disappointing. If you're going to have Moro literally merge with an angel, you should give him a more badass design. I'm thinking of an angelic robe, a twisted/corrupted halo (so as not to look too similar to Fused Zamasu's), and maybe some form of staff. From the few panels i have seen, Angel Moro looks very similar to 73 Moro.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:04 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:01 pm
On the subject of Angel Moro, frankly I expected him to look more regal and divine. I believe he only got white fur and a different eyeliner, which is disappointing. If you're going to have Moro literally merge with an angel, you should give him a more badass design. I'm thinking of an angelic robe, a twisted/corrupted halo (so as not to look too similar to Fused Zamasu's), and maybe some form of staff. From what the few panels i have seen, Angel Moro looks very similar to 73 Moro.
I'm surprised he looks any different at all, considering it's the usual copy ability rather than literally eating Merus as he did with 7-3. I think the additional white is to, like with Goku, signify that he is using ultra instinct.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:12 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm
You may feel it's premature, that's fine. I don't. I consider what I've seen to be trash, regardless of whatever the rest of the chapter does. I don't believe there's any context within which to frame what I've seen and read as good writing.
Then is not this the actual obstacle to further discussion? Your conviction that nothing will happen at any point that could possibly persuade you differently? I can't understand this position at all - hence why I criticised it so trenchantly - but that's up to you, I guess.
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm
I never said the whole of Super is going to be trash.
Then the following statement was about nothing at all?:
Ziegander wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:34 pm
There were so many neat things they could have done from a storytelling perspective. This just throws Goku at blinding speed at the FIGHT THE ANGELS AND GRAND PRIEST, BECOME PAPI BLANCO AND DESTROY ZENO wall, where he can splatter like so many ultra instinct tomatoes for our amusement. This is serious lowest common denominator shit. Where is Toriyama's sense of wonder? His sense of humor?
This definitely seems to be a statement about how you're going to hate the rest of Super.
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm
Maybe Super will somehow avoid hurtling the plotline into a direction that I will personally find awful. Maybe. I can't see how, and I'm not sure I trust Toyo and Toriyama to find a way that feels organic from where they've brought us currently, and that's part of the problem. I can only see Super going in a direction that I don't think seems to be quality writing. I never said Super is forever going to be trash and that everything from here on out is going to be trash. I did say, quite colorfully, that it seems Super is taking a shitty direction that resembles fan fiction. Okay, maybe that was discourteous. I don't know that will be the case, but we've spent two years simply inflating power levels and telling small story beats only to have them made irrelevant within a month or two for the sake of shock value. For the most part I have not found the latter half of this arc to be well-paced or well-written and the whole of the arc has had very little narrative substance, if any. Goku has mastered ultra instinct. That's really about the only lasting element we've gotten from this story. And Merus, a character that didn't exist before this arc, also doesn't exist (we think) after this arc. So... that's a zero-sum, there, unless there will be consequences for it. I would be ALL FOR consequences for the erasure of Merus. That would really be something. But ask around how likely anyone really thinks that's going to be. We'll see. I was not happy with this arc before MUI. Before MUI, I thought the idea of Goku finishing Moro off with MUI was boring. But then we got the MUI chapter and it was really, really good. I'm not all gloom and doom on Super. That was a great chapter. It restored my faith for a bit, but then I got let down again. Yeah, I'm salty about it. Is it possible that Toyo does have something interesting planned for the next arc? Totally. Can he write really solid scenes? Yeah, he's shown he can. Not sure about whole arcs, but he does manage some great individual scenes. The talent is there. I'm not trying to say all of Super is forever ruined by this arc, but I do think that this arc is overall way too long for how lackluster, inconsistent, and hacky it is.
I get disappointment. I'm not wild on this development either, if there is simply nothing else to it. But wouldn't waiting and seeing then be the appropriate course of action, given the positions you hold?

I've phrased a lot of what I'm saying too strongly earlier, out of sheer frustration, and I apologise for that. That was unreasonable of me. But really, given that you started out this whole thing saying that some things might happen that could surprise you, because it's happened before, I genuinely don't understand the point of shutting that down now, even though you don't like what you've learned as things stand. Because you know that's happened to you before. I just don't get it.
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm
Obviously no, Moro's ability was not fully sealed off, otherwise he could not retrieve a jewel that had successfully copied the powers of an Angel and then used said jewel to take those powers for himself.
Do you know how his copy power is restored? Because I don't. I'd call that important context we're missing at the moment, for example. It may, for instance, come from his newly-healed arm, which would be completely beyond Merus's initial sphere of action and something that Goku couldn't have foreseen.
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm
Um... the facts are, Moro has a jewel that has a copy within it of Merus' powers. It seemed pretty clear to me. A jewel touched Merus' neck. Merus did not destroy that jewel.
Again, since he sliced his hand off to stop that happening, and sealed Moro's ability completely, why would he assume it's still relevant? Moro hasn't shown us anything that would lead us to reasonably expect that he can make that relevant again. And moreover, Merus died almost immediately after sealing the third jewel.
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm
Yes, it is reasonable for Merus to not know how Moro might get his powers out of that jewel, in fact, it's even reasonable to assume Merus might not have thought the jewels could copy an Angel's powers. Many of us thought it would actually be unreasonable for the jewels to be able to do that.
Then how can you condemn him as 'looking stupid' for something he reasonably couldn't have foreseen? We, the audience, have had months to chew over all possible outcomes, likely and unlikely. Merus had mere moments to seal off the power before disappearing. Which he did.
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm
Now he's not this higher than mortal, cosmically aware being
Super has already established that even full Angels like Whis have significant gaps in their knowledge - for instance, he has no idea what kind of strong people will show up to the Tournament of Power. Why should a trainee Angel on time constraints dealing with a fusion of abilities never seen before be held to a higher standard?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:01 pm
On the subject of Angel Moro, frankly I expected him to look more regal and divine. I believe he only got white fur and a different eyeliner, which is disappointing. If you're going to have Moro literally merge with an angel, you should give him a more badass design. I'm thinking of an angelic robe, a twisted/corrupted halo (so as not to look too similar to Fused Zamasu's), and maybe some form of staff. From the few panels i have seen, Angel Moro looks very similar to 73 Moro.
Don't expect flashy stuff like that in the manga. That's where Toei comes in. It was the same thing with Merged Zamasu, where it never felt there was anything divine about him in the manga.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:40 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:35 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:01 pm
On the subject of Angel Moro, frankly I expected him to look more regal and divine. I believe he only got white fur and a different eyeliner, which is disappointing. If you're going to have Moro literally merge with an angel, you should give him a more badass design. I'm thinking of an angelic robe, a twisted/corrupted halo (so as not to look too similar to Fused Zamasu's), and maybe some form of staff. From the few panels i have seen, Angel Moro looks very similar to 73 Moro.
Don't expect flashy stuff like that in the manga. That's where Toei comes in. It was the same thing with Merged Zamasu, where it never felt there was anything divine about him in the manga.
Destroyer Toppo is another example of someone the anime made flashy.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:03 pm

I somehow consent in some peoples general criticism about the arc. On the other hand ... We are probably only a few chapters away from next arc, the fact we are still wildly speculating and guessing about how it's going to end and a lot of people are going in pretty intense discussions about it, isn't that bad a result for a 'hugely massively badly written arc'. Toyotaro and Toriyama apparently do somehow seem to captivate our attention till the end with the latest developments.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:24 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:35 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:02 pm
He got the ssj4 too easy with the help of bulma.
Bulma helped him turn into a great ape, not Ssj4. Anyone can turn into a great ape, they just didn't have time to wait for a full moon and pull his tail out. Reaching Ssj4 requires the Saiyan to turn into a Golden ape and regain consciousness of themselves within that sate, which Bulma had nothing to do with. The way Vegeta reached Ssj4 is no different from how Goku reached it.
goku didn't even complete his training which is bad

vegeta had the facility that he never lost consciousness in his ozaru form .. even in gt vegeta mentions it removing the last conflict that goku had ... but in comparison vegeta lacked much ...

1.-vegeta ssj was much weaker than goku (he couldn't defeat gohan and goten)
2.-he did not have the ssj3
3.-He didn't have a tail ...
4.-he did not even begin the training to achieve the transformation
5.- it was not even necessary for him to regain consciousness because he never lost it

literally the machine do all that by eliminating all the development that goku had in comparison
Last edited by Tai Lung on Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:24 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:12 pm
Ziegander wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm
I never said the whole of Super is going to be trash.
Then the following statement was about nothing at all?:
Ziegander wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:34 pm
There were so many neat things they could have done from a storytelling perspective. This just throws Goku at blinding speed at the FIGHT THE ANGELS AND GRAND PRIEST, BECOME PAPI BLANCO AND DESTROY ZENO wall, where he can splatter like so many ultra instinct tomatoes for our amusement. This is serious lowest common denominator shit. Where is Toriyama's sense of wonder? His sense of humor?
This definitely seems to be a statement about how you're going to hate the rest of Super.
You're right. It was a bit much. :lol:

I was despairing over being let down yet again by the choices made by the Super writing team. But are you not at least a little concerned to have spent so long on an arc that's done nothing really to develop the characters or introduce any new story elements to Super but has taken us through fully mastering Ultra Instinct to full on facing Angelically-powered foes? Perhaps Angel Moro still isn't on Whis' level, but he's got to be extremely close if not. Where else do you go with a series about fighting after this? It's hard to see many alternatives.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: I get disappointment. I'm not wild on this development either, if there is simply nothing else to it. But wouldn't waiting and seeing then be the appropriate course of action, given the positions you hold?
And I understand being tired of seeing people shit on the chapters before the full chapter is out. I'm... just tired of giving the writing the chance at this point. No, I don't know how the chapter is going to end, but I really don't see how a satisfying conclusion can come out of what we've got right now. We've been with not only Toyotaro but this arc specifically for a while now. It's not been very often that he's surprised me in a good way. He has surprised me, quite often, actually, generally with a shock value twist that seems pulled out of his ass and does not satisfy either plotlines he's dangled in front of us or logically follow from events that he and the rest of the team have placed thematic emphasis on. There's no emotional throughline to this arc. Stuff just happens and then other stuff comes out of left field. I'd argue it's actually pretty reasonable, at this point, to expect to be disappointed by the end of this chapter and by the end of this arc. We've got enough evidence to make that bet. Might it actually turn out good? Sure. But the team behind the manga would have to be playing some 4d chess to pull something like that off, in my opinion. I don't think they've given us any indication they're up to something mind-blowing.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: I've phrased a lot of what I'm saying too strongly earlier, out of sheer frustration, and I apologise for that. That was unreasonable of me. But really, given that you started out this whole thing saying that some things might happen that could surprise you, because it's happened before, I genuinely don't understand the point of shutting that down now, even though you don't like what you've learned as things stand. Because you know that's happened to you before. I just don't get it.
Okay, and I understand that. Like I said above, it's just two too many letdowns at this point. I'm tired of giving the benefit of the doubt. There's been so many surprises that I haven't liked with this arc, I'm just, I guess I'm just entirely killing my expectations at this point. I don't have any.

As far as Merus is concerned, I still think it makes him inept. Even if you were reasonably sure Moro couldn't use the jewel, even if you thought it wasn't likely the jewel contained your power, the fact remains that you did nothing to be 100% sure. What if someone or something else got ahold of that jewel in the future? There's no way for you to know your powers weren't copied within it, in fact, you know that's what the jewels do, it's strongly implied that Merus was sealing them in the first place because even the idea that an Angel's powers could be copied by them was so dangerous that Merus would sacrifice his very existence to ensure that was impossible. Only he left the door open. By not destroying that last jewel it makes everything he did seem ineffectual and therefore stupid. It would be different if Merus faded away before he could have possibly even tried to destroy that last jewel, but he never even acknowledged it.

Insert wild metaphor here:

For the record, I'm not actually saying Merus is dumb, but this decision by the writing team makes him seem dumb. The jewels were so dangerous that Merus broke Angel law knowing he'd be erased from existence and yet he left the only one that touched him fully intact? If this direction hadn't been taken, then the implication would be that, yes, Merus had succeeded in sealing off Moro's power and that jewel in the severed hand was never in any danger of being used to copy the powers of an Angel, or anything else for that matter. Merus didn't bother destroying it, because he knew that. But because the story has gone in this direction, because this narrative direction has been taken, the implication becomes that Merus thought the jewel was inconsequential but was wrong. Or, perhaps worse, he never even gave it a second thought at all. It deflates his status and it makes his forgetting about it seem incredibly short-sighted given the stakes at hand. Merus had not seemed to be short-sighted, in-fact, he seemed to be highly precise, observant, and forward-thinking. Now he seems less so, and his sacrifice holds even less weight than it had before. I'm not among them, but many people felt his sacrifice fell flat on its face regardless, but certainly this new revelation makes it even less important.
Last edited by Ziegander on Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:48 pm

It's very weird if Moro can just get Angel powers with no repercussions, that would make 7-3 incredibly overpowered to be capable of handling even the abilities of the beings at the very top of the god hierarchy.
Guess we'll find out soon enough, if this will backfire on Moro or if he will get off scot-free and they have to defeat him another way.
I mean come on, there can't be that much left of this arc right?

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