"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:16 am

Part of the problem is they introduced Goku mastering UI too early. It’s only been an arc and a movie for something that is seemingly so powerful & unbeatable. Goku even just being able to go into Omen at will for awhile would have been a step forward but still leave room to grow. Because now you got to ask yourself what now. How are they going to continue to nerf UI?

Goku’s fight with Moro was great action wise but story wise I didn’t want Vegeta’s role to be ignored and his showing so far was disappointing despite all the build up.

So with Goku mastering UI and can just stomp Moro you either have all the build up of Vegeta wasted or you have some twist (the Senzu) that just feels a bit forced.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ChronoTwigger » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:33 am

Kinokima wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:16 am
So with Goku mastering UI and can just stomp Moro you either have all the build up of Vegeta wasted or you have some twist (the Senzu) that just feels a bit forced.
Exactly that.
It sound forced 'cause no line about any other apparent motivation. That could have been stated, why not.
"I will not use this tech Merus teached me to kill someone this rude way, it deserve more".
Problem solved.
It's perfectly fine for Goku character to spare someone, that's not out of character. But in this given circumstance, the plot continuity asked for a well stated motivation.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:07 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:51 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:13 pm
I don't understand all these DB revisionists and their unhealthy passion to make Goku something he is not. Goku giving Moro a senzu bean is not a "mistake." It's a purposeful intention to fulfill Goku's other side; his lust for combat against strong foes.

Saiyan Saga: Let Vegeta live. After all the atrocities Vegeta has done and the threat he posed to earth.

Namek: The moment Goku returned to Namek, tosses Vegeta a senzu bean. So they could get the rematch on. King Kai told Goku to kill Freeza before he powers up to 100%. Goku rejected Kai, told him this may be the only chance that he gets to fight the strongest scumbag in the universe. After Goku realized Freeza couldn't defeat him in his final form, Goku told him to go and train and return for combat. Didn't even kill him

Cell: Even Vegeta stated Goku was not fighting for the sake of the earth when he was battling Cell at first. He only told Gohan to waste Cell since he was the only one who could do it. Gohan doesn't like fighting he would not have kept Cell in check by fighting him all the time like Goku. Goku didn't have the power to have his way this instance.

Buu: Oh wow, where do we start? Goku purposefully sandbagged SSJ3 from Vegeta, despite knowing their battle would give energy to Majin Buu. Goku broke the Potara against Kid Buu since he wanted a fair fight. Even the Old Kaioshin was furious about this.

Goku letting Moro live is in consistent character here. Keeping strong opponents alive for the sake of battle, not for others. This side does creep in Goku through out the series. So lets not pretend we aren't suppose to see it anymore.
I think the issue is Goku should have learned from previous instances. Also,
The Vegeta on Namek thing I don't count due to Vegeta also being able to aid in battle agaisnt Frieza
The Frieza thing with King Kai is sure bad but it's not as though Goku had a clear opertunity to kill Frieza. Besides later on he gets his priorities straight and tries the Spirit Bomb
Goku not using SSJ3 is totally reasonable. Him transforming shook the Earth and emitted imense power. Not to mention it's unstable. Him transforming would have awaken Buu. Kid Buu was on par with SSJ3 Goku, and Goku did fight with the intent to kill. With Moro he wants to spare him and stuff that's just imature.
Except it took battle damage to awaken Majin Buu. If Goku just went Super Saiyan three there would be no fight.
I think you misunderstood me on Freeza. Goku as a Super Saiyan let Freeza power up to 100% [buff mode] just so he could test his power out. Despite Kaiosama telling him to kill Freeza before then. Goku letting Vegeta live just so he could fight him again was not based on any future aid from Vegeta. It was simply Goku wanted to keep him alive to fight again. The point is, Goku does not have to learn because he isn't making any mistakes when he wants to keep strong enemies alive for himself. He is doing that on purpose for combat sake, it's part of his characters, his slogan.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:40 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:07 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:51 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:13 pm
I don't understand all these DB revisionists and their unhealthy passion to make Goku something he is not. Goku giving Moro a senzu bean is not a "mistake." It's a purposeful intention to fulfill Goku's other side; his lust for combat against strong foes.

Saiyan Saga: Let Vegeta live. After all the atrocities Vegeta has done and the threat he posed to earth.

Namek: The moment Goku returned to Namek, tosses Vegeta a senzu bean. So they could get the rematch on. King Kai told Goku to kill Freeza before he powers up to 100%. Goku rejected Kai, told him this may be the only chance that he gets to fight the strongest scumbag in the universe. After Goku realized Freeza couldn't defeat him in his final form, Goku told him to go and train and return for combat. Didn't even kill him

Cell: Even Vegeta stated Goku was not fighting for the sake of the earth when he was battling Cell at first. He only told Gohan to waste Cell since he was the only one who could do it. Gohan doesn't like fighting he would not have kept Cell in check by fighting him all the time like Goku. Goku didn't have the power to have his way this instance.

Buu: Oh wow, where do we start? Goku purposefully sandbagged SSJ3 from Vegeta, despite knowing their battle would give energy to Majin Buu. Goku broke the Potara against Kid Buu since he wanted a fair fight. Even the Old Kaioshin was furious about this.

Goku letting Moro live is in consistent character here. Keeping strong opponents alive for the sake of battle, not for others. This side does creep in Goku through out the series. So lets not pretend we aren't suppose to see it anymore.
I think the issue is Goku should have learned from previous instances. Also,
The Vegeta on Namek thing I don't count due to Vegeta also being able to aid in battle agaisnt Frieza
The Frieza thing with King Kai is sure bad but it's not as though Goku had a clear opertunity to kill Frieza. Besides later on he gets his priorities straight and tries the Spirit Bomb
Goku not using SSJ3 is totally reasonable. Him transforming shook the Earth and emitted imense power. Not to mention it's unstable. Him transforming would have awaken Buu. Kid Buu was on par with SSJ3 Goku, and Goku did fight with the intent to kill. With Moro he wants to spare him and stuff that's just imature.
Except it took battle damage to awaken Majin Buu. If Goku just went Super Saiyan three there would be no fight.
I think you misunderstood me on Freeza. Goku as a Super Saiyan let Freeza power up to 100% [buff mode] just so he could test his power out. Despite Kaiosama telling him to kill Freeza before then. Goku letting Vegeta live just so he could fight him again was not based on any future aid from Vegeta. It was simply Goku wanted to keep him alive to fight again. The point is, Goku does not have to learn because he isn't making any mistakes when he wants to keep strong enemies alive for himself. He is doing that on purpose for combat sake, it's part of his characters, his slogan.
The Goku SSJ thing is right. You misunderstood me however. I was talking about him giving Vegeta a Senzu bean on Namek. On Earth it was entirley based on fighting him again. However on Namek, Goku probably thought Vegeta could be usefull as an ally. However in the Cell saga and after Goku is always wanting to stop the threat. He doesn't want to fight Super Buu because Super Buu is too strong. He didn't want Buu to become Buuhan. However when met with an enemy as strong if not weaker than him (Kid Buu) he decided a one on one (while letting Vegeta aid) was the right move. It's not like he spared Buu or even tried to.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:12 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:40 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:07 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:51 pm

I think the issue is Goku should have learned from previous instances. Also,
The Vegeta on Namek thing I don't count due to Vegeta also being able to aid in battle agaisnt Frieza
The Frieza thing with King Kai is sure bad but it's not as though Goku had a clear opertunity to kill Frieza. Besides later on he gets his priorities straight and tries the Spirit Bomb
Goku not using SSJ3 is totally reasonable. Him transforming shook the Earth and emitted imense power. Not to mention it's unstable. Him transforming would have awaken Buu. Kid Buu was on par with SSJ3 Goku, and Goku did fight with the intent to kill. With Moro he wants to spare him and stuff that's just imature.
Except it took battle damage to awaken Majin Buu. If Goku just went Super Saiyan three there would be no fight.
I think you misunderstood me on Freeza. Goku as a Super Saiyan let Freeza power up to 100% [buff mode] just so he could test his power out. Despite Kaiosama telling him to kill Freeza before then. Goku letting Vegeta live just so he could fight him again was not based on any future aid from Vegeta. It was simply Goku wanted to keep him alive to fight again. The point is, Goku does not have to learn because he isn't making any mistakes when he wants to keep strong enemies alive for himself. He is doing that on purpose for combat sake, it's part of his characters, his slogan.
The Goku SSJ thing is right. You misunderstood me however. I was talking about him giving Vegeta a Senzu bean on Namek. On Earth it was entirley based on fighting him again. However on Namek, Goku probably thought Vegeta could be usefull as an ally. However in the Cell saga and after Goku is always wanting to stop the threat. He doesn't want to fight Super Buu because Super Buu is too strong. He didn't want Buu to become Buuhan. However when met with an enemy as strong if not weaker than him (Kid Buu) he decided a one on one (while letting Vegeta aid) was the right move. It's not like he spared Buu or even tried to.
Breaking the Patorra just to have a fair fight with kid buu was a bonehead move. This was noted by the elder Kaioshin. Yeah, Goku doesn't try and fight beings way out of his league. As you mentioned, Super Buu would of killed both he and Vegeta and they relented. This is why he also told Gohan to kill Cell since Gohan was the only one who could do it. Cell was way out of Goku's league to keep him around as a sparring partner. He told Freeza to go off and train because Goku was strong enough to keep him around to fight and hold in check. It's the same situation with Moro. Moro had no hope of defeating UI Goku this is why he said go train and fight again.
As far as Goku arriving on Namek and handing Vegeta a senzu it was for selfish reasons...

Chapter: 279 (DBZ 85), P12.2-4
Context: after Goku gives the senzu to Vegeta
Kuririn: “Y-you idiot! You’re thinking of healing him and having all 4 of us fight together, right?! W-well that won’t work…”
Goku: “That ain’t it…I wanna settle the score with him later…[ ] I’ll take care of these guys on my own.”

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:48 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:37 pm
I am not saying Vegeta didn’t kill innocent people but he was still a warrior who fought battles to gain his power. He didn’t “steal that power”

I think you are saying Vegeta became more powerful while doing evil things.
It's sharper than that - Vegeta was as strong as he was because he was doing those evil things. It's not like he was placidly training somewhere; he was massacring planetary populations, and if he weren't, he wouldn't have become stronger. For sure, he's a combatant - like I said, the specific 'mechanics' are different to Moro. But in terms of how Goku 'ought' to regard the challenge his power represents when compared to Moro, it really shouldn't be particularly different. And, indeed, it isn't, which makes sense to me.
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:37 pm
for all the differences Goku & Vegeta had they shared things beyond power that Goku & Moro just don’t.
While this is technically the case, Goku shows no particular interest in his shared heritage with Vegeta or in making a connection with him on any level beyond just being the possessor of great power that he wants to continue to test himself against; not until Vegeta dies in DB #308, anyway.
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:37 pm
I am not really saying sparing Vegeta was better or smarter than it is here but it’s just comes off as way more complex to me than this. Where here it feels like paint by numbers Goku.
Well, this is something else entirely - I can't speak to how a beat lands for you; that's entirely your encounter with the material. All I can do is speak to whether or not it makes sense overall, and I think it does so just fine, which is all I've really been saying.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:34 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:12 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:40 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:07 pm


Except it took battle damage to awaken Majin Buu. If Goku just went Super Saiyan three there would be no fight.
I think you misunderstood me on Freeza. Goku as a Super Saiyan let Freeza power up to 100% [buff mode] just so he could test his power out. Despite Kaiosama telling him to kill Freeza before then. Goku letting Vegeta live just so he could fight him again was not based on any future aid from Vegeta. It was simply Goku wanted to keep him alive to fight again. The point is, Goku does not have to learn because he isn't making any mistakes when he wants to keep strong enemies alive for himself. He is doing that on purpose for combat sake, it's part of his characters, his slogan.
The Goku SSJ thing is right. You misunderstood me however. I was talking about him giving Vegeta a Senzu bean on Namek. On Earth it was entirley based on fighting him again. However on Namek, Goku probably thought Vegeta could be usefull as an ally. However in the Cell saga and after Goku is always wanting to stop the threat. He doesn't want to fight Super Buu because Super Buu is too strong. He didn't want Buu to become Buuhan. However when met with an enemy as strong if not weaker than him (Kid Buu) he decided a one on one (while letting Vegeta aid) was the right move. It's not like he spared Buu or even tried to.
Breaking the Patorra just to have a fair fight with kid buu was a bonehead move. This was noted by the elder Kaioshin. Yeah, Goku doesn't try and fight beings way out of his league. As you mentioned, Super Buu would of killed both he and Vegeta and they relented. This is why he also told Gohan to kill Cell since Gohan was the only one who could do it. Cell was way out of Goku's league to keep him around as a sparring partner. He told Freeza to go off and train because Goku was strong enough to keep him around to fight and hold in check. It's the same situation with Moro. Moro had no hope of defeating UI Goku this is why he said go train and fight again.
As far as Goku arriving on Namek and handing Vegeta a senzu it was for selfish reasons...

Chapter: 279 (DBZ 85), P12.2-4
Context: after Goku gives the senzu to Vegeta
Kuririn: “Y-you idiot! You’re thinking of healing him and having all 4 of us fight together, right?! W-well that won’t work…”
Goku: “That ain’t it…I wanna settle the score with him later…[ ] I’ll take care of these guys on my own.”
Sure its not the smart thing per say (Kid Buu fight), but its at least not giving Moro a bunch of chances to match Goku and pose a threat. I think the Vegeta Namek thing works both ways. Vegeta doesn't have to work directly with them to be usefull. Yes settling the score is one thing but having Vegeta around is simply pragmatic.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:28 pm

Am I the only one that thinks it's kinda weird that the kaioshin were nowhere to be seen throughout the whole arc?

Shin's predecessors stopped Moro eons ago, even the Dai Kaioshin came back (you'd think Shin and the old guy sensed that historic comeback, if they weren't keeping the usual eye on their ningen friends), so it could be argued there should be some sense of duty or something similar to what mobilised them in the Buu and the FT arc. I mean, Shin went to U10, to the past just with Gowasu, he even attacked Black! he is not afraid of conflict and with the old guy are the only folks with magic abilities, even if they suck.

But what caught my attention is not that they are not taking part, is that they weren't even shown following the events after being there in every DBS arc, in relevant roles too. I know they are not part of the main cast, but we've seen everybody in this arc (Shin could've been more useful than Yamcha), except for them.

I really can't believe they are unaware of what's been going on for months all around the universe and specially in the two planets they have visited the most, not to mention the "revival" of Shin's... kind of master??. That was months ago and he is still asleep inside of Buu that is also asleep.

So what do you guys think? they have no idea what's been going on, they know but prefer to sit this one out for whatever reason, or are they actively fixing what Moro broke and it will be shown at the end of the arc?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:55 am

Kinokima wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:16 am
Part of the problem is they introduced Goku mastering UI too early. It’s only been an arc and a movie for something that is seemingly so powerful & unbeatable. Goku even just being able to go into Omen at will for awhile would have been a step forward but still leave room to grow. Because now you got to ask yourself what now. How are they going to continue to nerf UI?

Goku’s fight with Moro was great action wise but story wise I didn’t want Vegeta’s role to be ignored and his showing so far was disappointing despite all the build up.

So with Goku mastering UI and can just stomp Moro you either have all the build up of Vegeta wasted or you have some twist (the Senzu) that just feels a bit forced.
The problem is we've already had our characters surpass the Gods of Destruction in various ways. The supreme powers of all the universes. Ultra Instinct breaches the realm of the angels, which is the next logical step in power for the story. It seems to me the most likely we'll get opponents who either also have Ultra Instinct (like Moro in the last chapter) or we'll get characters whose abilities render it impotent or circumvent it somehow (i.e. like Planet Moro, also in the previous chapter.)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:35 am

So he's not really thinking when using UI so I can see it not being fun for him.

You could say him having a guaranteed win in his back pocket removes all tension but my thinking is EoZ already did that anyway so we are no worse off.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:04 pm

Does anyone else think that the the End of Z draws near? I mean, Moro is a low angel-level threat apparently. Though his mastery over angelic power is pathetic, his raw power alone makes him formidable. Unless the Grand Priest goes rogue and is the villain of the next arc, I can't really imagine this midquel lasting for much longer. Plus Uub was mentioned in the ToP arc in both mediums, which means that Toei and Toyotaro are on the same page in that regard. The next arc, which is in the planning phase as of now, could be the final arc of Super, before the End of Z territory.

I wonder if the movie that was in pre-production some time ago is meant to bridge the gap between the last arc of this midquel and the End of Z. Though I imagine they would want to wait for the anime version of the Moro arc at the very least.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:50 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:04 pm
Does anyone else think that the the End of Z draws near? I mean, Moro is a low angel-level threat apparently. Though his mastery over angelic power is pathetic, his raw power alone makes him formidable. Unless the Grand Priest goes rogue and is the villain of the next arc, I can't really imagine this midquel lasting for much longer. Plus Uub was mentioned in the ToP arc in both mediums, which means that Toei and Toyotaro are on the same page in that regard. The next arc, which is in the planning phase as of now, could be the final arc of Super, before the End of Z territory.

I wonder if the movie that was in pre-production some time ago is meant to bridge the gap between the last arc of this midquel and the End of Z. Though I imagine they would want to wait for the anime version of the Moro arc at the very least.
I hope so. I think it's kind of silly how long Super went on without going End of Z. However a lot of the damage has kind of been done. I mean Uub means so much less now. I feel BoG should have been the only thing before the End of Z and then the other arcs are handled in a GT like environment.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:45 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:34 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:12 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:40 pm

The Goku SSJ thing is right. You misunderstood me however. I was talking about him giving Vegeta a Senzu bean on Namek. On Earth it was entirley based on fighting him again. However on Namek, Goku probably thought Vegeta could be usefull as an ally. However in the Cell saga and after Goku is always wanting to stop the threat. He doesn't want to fight Super Buu because Super Buu is too strong. He didn't want Buu to become Buuhan. However when met with an enemy as strong if not weaker than him (Kid Buu) he decided a one on one (while letting Vegeta aid) was the right move. It's not like he spared Buu or even tried to.
Breaking the Patorra just to have a fair fight with kid buu was a bonehead move. This was noted by the elder Kaioshin. Yeah, Goku doesn't try and fight beings way out of his league. As you mentioned, Super Buu would of killed both he and Vegeta and they relented. This is why he also told Gohan to kill Cell since Gohan was the only one who could do it. Cell was way out of Goku's league to keep him around as a sparring partner. He told Freeza to go off and train because Goku was strong enough to keep him around to fight and hold in check. It's the same situation with Moro. Moro had no hope of defeating UI Goku this is why he said go train and fight again.
As far as Goku arriving on Namek and handing Vegeta a senzu it was for selfish reasons...

Chapter: 279 (DBZ 85), P12.2-4
Context: after Goku gives the senzu to Vegeta
Kuririn: “Y-you idiot! You’re thinking of healing him and having all 4 of us fight together, right?! W-well that won’t work…”
Goku: “That ain’t it…I wanna settle the score with him later…[ ] I’ll take care of these guys on my own.”
Sure its not the smart thing per say (Kid Buu fight), but its at least not giving Moro a bunch of chances to match Goku and pose a threat. I think the Vegeta Namek thing works both ways. Vegeta doesn't have to work directly with them to be usefull. Yes settling the score is one thing but having Vegeta around is simply pragmatic.
Goku's reason for healing Vegeta wasn't to have him around for aid, but to fight him. Goku fighting Kid Buu head up allowed kid buu to endanger the universe just like Moro. This is the same Goku we have seen for a long time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 pm

Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:45 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:34 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:12 pm


Breaking the Patorra just to have a fair fight with kid buu was a bonehead move. This was noted by the elder Kaioshin. Yeah, Goku doesn't try and fight beings way out of his league. As you mentioned, Super Buu would of killed both he and Vegeta and they relented. This is why he also told Gohan to kill Cell since Gohan was the only one who could do it. Cell was way out of Goku's league to keep him around as a sparring partner. He told Freeza to go off and train because Goku was strong enough to keep him around to fight and hold in check. It's the same situation with Moro. Moro had no hope of defeating UI Goku this is why he said go train and fight again.
As far as Goku arriving on Namek and handing Vegeta a senzu it was for selfish reasons...

Chapter: 279 (DBZ 85), P12.2-4
Context: after Goku gives the senzu to Vegeta
Kuririn: “Y-you idiot! You’re thinking of healing him and having all 4 of us fight together, right?! W-well that won’t work…”
Goku: “That ain’t it…I wanna settle the score with him later…[ ] I’ll take care of these guys on my own.”
Sure its not the smart thing per say (Kid Buu fight), but its at least not giving Moro a bunch of chances to match Goku and pose a threat. I think the Vegeta Namek thing works both ways. Vegeta doesn't have to work directly with them to be usefull. Yes settling the score is one thing but having Vegeta around is simply pragmatic.
Goku's reason for healing Vegeta wasn't to have him around for aid, but to fight him. Goku fighting Kid Buu head up allowed kid buu to endanger the universe just like Moro. This is the same Goku we have seen for a long time.
Kid Buu didn't endanger the universe he can't destroy it. I know Goku healed him to fight but he probably also thought Vegeta could be useful. A main reason does not have to be the only reason. I'm not even saying that he did that 100% just he might have considered that. Besides he was way stronger than Vegeta at that point so its not that big of an issue.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:56 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:45 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:34 pm

Sure its not the smart thing per say (Kid Buu fight), but its at least not giving Moro a bunch of chances to match Goku and pose a threat. I think the Vegeta Namek thing works both ways. Vegeta doesn't have to work directly with them to be usefull. Yes settling the score is one thing but having Vegeta around is simply pragmatic.
Goku's reason for healing Vegeta wasn't to have him around for aid, but to fight him. Goku fighting Kid Buu head up allowed kid buu to endanger the universe just like Moro. This is the same Goku we have seen for a long time.
Kid Buu didn't endanger the universe he can't destroy it. I know Goku healed him to fight but he probably also thought Vegeta could be useful. A main reason does not have to be the only reason. I'm not even saying that he did that 100% just he might have considered that. Besides he was way stronger than Vegeta at that point so its not that big of an issue.
It is a big issue cause Goku giving Vegeta a senzu, continues the same intentions Goku demonstrated with Moro. Just like with Kid Buu, who is a danger to the universe. Who would be left to protect it as he jumps to every inhabitant planet and wastes it? Again, Goku has shown throughout DB that he purposefully fights for himself, which is not by accident.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:59 pm

Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:56 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:45 pm


Goku's reason for healing Vegeta wasn't to have him around for aid, but to fight him. Goku fighting Kid Buu head up allowed kid buu to endanger the universe just like Moro. This is the same Goku we have seen for a long time.
Kid Buu didn't endanger the universe he can't destroy it. I know Goku healed him to fight but he probably also thought Vegeta could be useful. A main reason does not have to be the only reason. I'm not even saying that he did that 100% just he might have considered that. Besides he was way stronger than Vegeta at that point so its not that big of an issue.
It is a big issue cause Goku giving Vegeta a senzu, continues the same intentions Goku demonstrated with Moro. Just like with Kid Buu, who is a danger to the universe. Who would be left to protect it as he jumps to every inhabitant planet and wastes it? Again, Goku has shown throughout DB that he purposefully fights for himself not by accident.
Gohan could one shot Kid Buu. He was revived remember. Goku also sees good in Vegeta. People act like his actions towards Vegeta and Frieza are the same. However when he says it to Vegeta that's all him. When he says it to Frieza he is consumed by the battle lust of the Super Saiyan

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:03 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:56 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 pm

Kid Buu didn't endanger the universe he can't destroy it. I know Goku healed him to fight but he probably also thought Vegeta could be useful. A main reason does not have to be the only reason. I'm not even saying that he did that 100% just he might have considered that. Besides he was way stronger than Vegeta at that point so its not that big of an issue.
It is a big issue cause Goku giving Vegeta a senzu, continues the same intentions Goku demonstrated with Moro. Just like with Kid Buu, who is a danger to the universe. Who would be left to protect it as he jumps to every inhabitant planet and wastes it? Again, Goku has shown throughout DB that he purposefully fights for himself not by accident.
Gohan could one shot Kid Buu. He was revived remember. Goku also sees good in Vegeta. People act like his actions towards Vegeta and Frieza are the same. However when he says it to Vegeta that's all him. When he says it to Frieza he is consumed by the battle lust of the Super Saiyan
No, it wasn't just SS talking to Freeza. Goku demonstrated that same attitude afterwards towards kid buu, Majin Vegeta, even didn't fight for the sake of the earth against Cell. It's a stated fact that the only reason Goku gave Vegeta a senzu was to battle again. BTW was Gohan revived when Goku broke the Patora against kid buu, putting the universe in danger all for the sake of a fair fight?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:10 pm

Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:03 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:56 pm

It is a big issue cause Goku giving Vegeta a senzu, continues the same intentions Goku demonstrated with Moro. Just like with Kid Buu, who is a danger to the universe. Who would be left to protect it as he jumps to every inhabitant planet and wastes it? Again, Goku has shown throughout DB that he purposefully fights for himself not by accident.
Gohan could one shot Kid Buu. He was revived remember. Goku also sees good in Vegeta. People act like his actions towards Vegeta and Frieza are the same. However when he says it to Vegeta that's all him. When he says it to Frieza he is consumed by the battle lust of the Super Saiyan
No, it wasn't just SS talking to Freeza. Goku demonstrated that same attitude afterwards towards kid buu, Majin Vegeta, even didn't fight for the sake of the earth against Cell. It's a stated fact that the only reason Goku gave Vegeta a senzu was to battle again. BTW was Gohan revived when Goku broke the Patora against kid buu, putting the universe in danger all for the sake of a fair fight?
Gohan was revived shortly after. Kid Buu couldn't kill Goku fast enough though. Say Goku was just holding off Kid Buu until Gohan was brought there nothing would go wrong. Him not fighting Cell for the sake of the Earth is most likely due to the fact that Goku sees that as his last fight. Goku is going to retire by that point, maybe not die but he's planned to have Gohan take over. He's going to enjoy his last fight. The Vegeta thing is far different. Vegeta is not the main villain of the Frieza saga or a big enough threat to make it absurd for Goku to spare. Again Goku spared Piccolo to fight again but also has the pragmatic point that keeping Piccolo keeps Kami. Goku can be reasonable. The Majin Vegeta thing was to save others. He was trying to stop Vegeta killing people. He wanted to fight but at the same time didn't want to realese Buu. I think its fair to assume Goku's already existing tendency to spare those that are worthy of it would be twisted by SSJ to spare Frieza.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:52 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:10 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:03 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:59 pm

Gohan could one shot Kid Buu. He was revived remember. Goku also sees good in Vegeta. People act like his actions towards Vegeta and Frieza are the same. However when he says it to Vegeta that's all him. When he says it to Frieza he is consumed by the battle lust of the Super Saiyan
No, it wasn't just SS talking to Freeza. Goku demonstrated that same attitude afterwards towards kid buu, Majin Vegeta, even didn't fight for the sake of the earth against Cell. It's a stated fact that the only reason Goku gave Vegeta a senzu was to battle again. BTW was Gohan revived when Goku broke the Patora against kid buu, putting the universe in danger all for the sake of a fair fight?
Gohan was revived shortly after. Kid Buu couldn't kill Goku fast enough though. Say Goku was just holding off Kid Buu until Gohan was brought there nothing would go wrong. Him not fighting Cell for the sake of the Earth is most likely due to the fact that Goku sees that as his last fight. Goku is going to retire by that point, maybe not die but he's planned to have Gohan take over. He's going to enjoy his last fight. The Vegeta thing is far different. Vegeta is not the main villain of the Frieza saga or a big enough threat to make it absurd for Goku to spare. Again Goku spared Piccolo to fight again but also has the pragmatic point that keeping Piccolo keeps Kami. Goku can be reasonable. The Majin Vegeta thing was to save others. He was trying to stop Vegeta killing people. He wanted to fight but at the same time didn't want to realese Buu. I think its fair to assume Goku's already existing tendency to spare those that are worthy of it would be twisted by SSJ to spare Frieza.
You are giving a lot of outside explanations for Goku's reasons of fighting for himself that are not in the story. The fact is, Goku keeping Moro alive for selfish reasons is in Goku's character. He has done this before and it is no mistake.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:08 am

Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:52 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:10 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:03 pm

No, it wasn't just SS talking to Freeza. Goku demonstrated that same attitude afterwards towards kid buu, Majin Vegeta, even didn't fight for the sake of the earth against Cell. It's a stated fact that the only reason Goku gave Vegeta a senzu was to battle again. BTW was Gohan revived when Goku broke the Patora against kid buu, putting the universe in danger all for the sake of a fair fight?
Gohan was revived shortly after. Kid Buu couldn't kill Goku fast enough though. Say Goku was just holding off Kid Buu until Gohan was brought there nothing would go wrong. Him not fighting Cell for the sake of the Earth is most likely due to the fact that Goku sees that as his last fight. Goku is going to retire by that point, maybe not die but he's planned to have Gohan take over. He's going to enjoy his last fight. The Vegeta thing is far different. Vegeta is not the main villain of the Frieza saga or a big enough threat to make it absurd for Goku to spare. Again Goku spared Piccolo to fight again but also has the pragmatic point that keeping Piccolo keeps Kami. Goku can be reasonable. The Majin Vegeta thing was to save others. He was trying to stop Vegeta killing people. He wanted to fight but at the same time didn't want to realese Buu. I think its fair to assume Goku's already existing tendency to spare those that are worthy of it would be twisted by SSJ to spare Frieza.
You are giving a lot of outside explanations for Goku's reasons of fighting for himself that are not in the story. The fact is, Goku keeping Moro alive for selfish reasons is in Goku's character. He has done this before and it is no mistake.
I am using simple context clues. Goku's selfishness is being flanderized at this point in the story. His past actions are different within the context of the story. This one is the most blatantly regressive.

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