Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

TBMx
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:54 pm

Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by TBMx » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm

- Vegeta's said he needs no mentor
Goes and gets a mentor, the one who ordered the extinction of his people no less.

- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI and changing the way he is.
Goes for a technique thats requires elimination of all thoughts but one.

- Vegeta said he hates techniques and god powers and prefers to settle things with brute natural strength.
Goes for an even higher god power.

Vegeta is clearly portrayed as having lost faith in god powers and wanting to give it up, saying he preferred to settle things with brute, natural strength.

Okay then, so why not have him give up the god line and go for SS4? Its a fan favourite. They already brought the likes of Broly back where they made allusions to it, so why not?

I don't get why they can't have his actions match his words.

User avatar
Thani
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 402
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Thani » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:57 pm

TBMx wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm
- Vegeta's said he needs no mentor
Goes and gets a mentor, the one who ordered the extinction of his people no less.

- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI and changing the way he is.
Goes for a technique thats requires elimination of all thoughts but one.

- Vegeta said he hates techniques and god powers and prefers to settle things with brute natural strength.
Goes for an even higher god power.

Vegeta is clearly portrayed as having lost faith in god powers and wanting to give it up, saying he preferred to settle things with brute, natural strength.

Okay then, so why not have him give up the god line and go for SS4? Its a fan favourite. They already brought the likes of Broly back where they made allusions to it, so why not?

I don't get why they can't have his actions match his words.
You can chalk it up to either Vegeta, Toyotaro or Toriyama being hypocrites. But to be fair, what Vegeta said in the end was "i only crave a fair fight". As long as it's fair, he doesn't mind. Fusing is unfair, as is absorbing the ki of your enemies. Destruction, which is merely a, well, destructive power, wouldn't be unfair, I think.

With that in mind, Forced Spirit Fission is perfect for Vegeta, because he can pretty much nullify any "unfairness" his opponents may try to use.

TBMx
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:54 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by TBMx » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:11 pm

Thani wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:57 pm
TBMx wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm
- Vegeta's said he needs no mentor
Goes and gets a mentor, the one who ordered the extinction of his people no less.

- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI and changing the way he is.
Goes for a technique thats requires elimination of all thoughts but one.

- Vegeta said he hates techniques and god powers and prefers to settle things with brute natural strength.
Goes for an even higher god power.

Vegeta is clearly portrayed as having lost faith in god powers and wanting to give it up, saying he preferred to settle things with brute, natural strength.

Okay then, so why not have him give up the god line and go for SS4? Its a fan favourite. They already brought the likes of Broly back where they made allusions to it, so why not?

I don't get why they can't have his actions match his words.
You can chalk it up to either Vegeta, Toyotaro or Toriyama being hypocrites. But to be fair, what Vegeta said in the end was "i only crave a fair fight". As long as it's fair, he doesn't mind. Fusing is unfair, as is absorbing the ki of your enemies. Destruction, which is merely a, well, destructive power, wouldn't be unfair, I think.

With that in mind, Forced Spirit Fission is perfect for Vegeta, because he can pretty much nullify any "unfairness" his opponents may try to use.
Chapter 50

"Stupid god power, stupid magic spells. Forget instant teleportation! We saiyans pride ourselves on physical might and nothing more. A warrior race has no need for fancy parlour tricks! And yet I've been reduced to this!!" - Vegeta.

If he believes that, why then go seek out a new god power from the one who ordered the extermination of the saiyans?

It just seems like the exact opposite of what he'd do based on his own words and saiyan pride.

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
Regular
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:36 pm

TBMx wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm
- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI
Where does Vegeta make this statement?

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3722
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:58 pm

I think that’s exactly the theme of his current development. Vegeta has to destroy his own preconceptions of how a warrior should be. And he will create a new version of himself, not clinging to dated ideas.

User avatar
Thani
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 402
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Thani » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:04 pm

TBMx wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:11 pm

Chapter 50

"Stupid god power, stupid magic spells. Forget instant teleportation! We saiyans pride ourselves on physical might and nothing more. A warrior race has no need for fancy parlour tricks! And yet I've been reduced to this!!" - Vegeta.
He really did say that. Huh. That's really weird, since his god power mostly translate to, well, more power. Wonder what Toyo was thinking with that line.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1632
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:37 pm

Thani wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:04 pm
He really did say that. Huh. That's really weird, since his god power mostly translate to, well, more power. Wonder what Toyo was thinking with that line.
I'm pretty sure that with "God power" he was not referring to the Godly Super Saiyan transformations (which seems to fit what he calls natural / brute strength, since in the final battle he uses his SSBE while claiming that he aims only for a fair fight without relying on the powers of others.) During the arc the term "God power" is used more to refer to the power possessed by Dai Kaioshin responsible for sealing Moro in the past (and later used to refer to that same power that was inherited by Uub / Ultra Instinct.) More specifically, this was the power treated as the key to seal Moro again during the Namek portion of the story and it ended up not working (which is why Vegeta was frustrated when he is forced to flee the fight)

Tbh, it seems a little strange to me that SSG / SSB were taken out of the equation when it comes to this term (since Moro says that the Ultra Instinct was not a mortal ability, despite not saying the same about the other forms that also have God Ki). But well, that's the way they portrayed it I guess

User avatar
SaiyanCosmos
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:09 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by SaiyanCosmos » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:42 pm

To add another one on to that list: Vegeta is reluctant to train with Goku in the time chamber for 3 years in the U6/U7 tournament arc because he thinks they've reached the maximum of their strength. But throughout the TOP, he emphasises that Saiyans don't have limits, implying that they still have lots of room to grow their strength.

User avatar
Thani
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 402
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Thani » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am

Basically, and let's be fair here, DB was never really known for it's hard consistency.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:37 pm

I'm pretty sure that with "God power" he was not referring to the Godly Super Saiyan transformations (which seems to fit what he calls natural / brute strength, since in the final battle he uses his SSBE while claiming that he aims only for a fair fight without relying on the powers of others.) During the arc the term "God power" is used more to refer to the power possessed by Dai Kaioshin responsible for sealing Moro in the past (and later used to refer to that same power that was inherited by Uub / Ultra Instinct.) More specifically, this was the power treated as the key to seal Moro again during the Namek portion of the story and it ended up not working (which is why Vegeta was frustrated when he is forced to flee the fight)

Tbh, it seems a little strange to me that SSG / SSB were taken out of the equation when it comes to this term (since Moro says that the Ultra Instinct was not a mortal ability, despite not saying the same about the other forms that also have God Ki). But well, that's the way they portrayed it I guess
Also it always bugged me. Remember when Goku regained the energy to go Blue against Moro, despite having only the ki of his friends and what Vegeta could spare since he was occupied with keeping Moro at bay? Or when Moro could tell that Vegeta would be a fine meal? Or when Piccolo could tell Goku was much stronger in Blue than last time? But no one could sense Ultra Instinct or Merus?

It feels almost like the god forms... Doesn't have god ki anymore.

EGonzo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:36 am

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by EGonzo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:45 pm

I've had a big problem with manga Vegeta since the Black arc, in that he's always changing his kind and going in circles yet the story always treats it as him growing.

* Shows he cares about his family enough to snap when Beerus hits Bulma, yet doesn't care that Black killed Future Bulma and tortured his son for over a year.

*Sjows he can set aside his pride for the greater good, yet is content with dying against Fused Zamasu as long as his pride is intact until he hears Trunks' dumb speech

*Asked Whis to train him, and learned under him for years, then claims he's never needed a teacher, THEN goes get himself a teacher again in the next arc

I don't have a problem with these moments per se, even if I'm not a fan of most, but the way the manga paints them as big moments of growth when it's just Vegeta running in circles over and over.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4636
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:51 pm

TBMx wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm
- Vegeta's said he needs no mentor
Goes and gets a mentor, the one who ordered the extinction of his people no less.

- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI and changing the way he is.
Goes for a technique thats requires elimination of all thoughts but one.

- Vegeta said he hates techniques and god powers and prefers to settle things with brute natural strength.
Goes for an even higher god power.

Vegeta is clearly portrayed as having lost faith in god powers and wanting to give it up, saying he preferred to settle things with brute, natural strength.

Okay then, so why not have him give up the god line and go for SS4? Its a fan favourite. They already brought the likes of Broly back where they made allusions to it, so why not?

I don't get why they can't have his actions match his words.
I still laugh at the fist point. Toyo does this whole stupid speech at the ToP and he immediately contradicts it in the next arc.

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5733
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Cipher » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:55 am

He said he was going to choose a different path of development from Goku/UI and has stuck to that.

He said he was remorseful of his actions on Namek and prior and has stuck to that in his reflections on and guilt over the Saiyans’ actions as a race.

I’m not sure what you want other than the specific fanservice of him going SS4, dressed up as a critique on the writing.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2728
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:21 am

Cipher wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:55 am
He said he was going to choose a different path of development from Goku/UI and has stuck to that.

He said he was remorseful of his actions on Namek and prior and has stuck to that in his reflections on and guilt over the Saiyans’ actions as a race.

I’m not sure what you want other than the specific fanservice of him going SS4, dressed up as a critique on the writing.
This. Honestly this complaining about Vegeta is starting to annoy me at this point. Vegeta is an awesomely written character! Who even wants SSJ4 at this point.. Seems like a FAR WORSE option than gaining “God of Destruction” powers.. Which is the route that Dragon Ball Super has established from the beginning and what it’s ALL about. So it makes perfect sense that Vegeta was eventually going to end up following the far superior “God route” than the far inferior “Monkey route” of GT.. Such lowly brutes and mortals. Not a fan of it at all!

If Vegeta wants to remain Goku’s ETERNAL inferior, he should choose SSJ4!

Lol...

God path >>>>>>>>>>> Mortal path!

Any time, any day!
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

DragonBallFoodie
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1179
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:12 pm
Location: Zambia, Southern Africa

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:44 pm

Vegeta giving up on his oaths has been that way from the beginning.

Perhaps his character depth distracts people from him actually being a parody of the shonen rival?
"Don't take pleasure in destruction!" / "I will not let you destroy my world!"
A true hero goes beyond not the limits of power, but the limits that divide countries and people.

User avatar
Lionel
I Live Here
Posts: 2036
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Lionel » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:17 pm

Vegeta has proven inadequate at meeting his self-imposed standards for some time now. I can't say he impresses much except for those rare glimpses into his, ironically enough, humanity such as when he expressed remorse for the slaughtering of the Namekians and also when he shows appreciation for his family. It's a shame those sentiments aren't applied all of the like in the Future Trunks arc with his future counterparts as someone else mentioned.

Kinokima
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:51 am

Lionel wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:17 pm
Vegeta has proven inadequate at meeting his self-imposed standards for some time now. I can't say he impresses much except for those rare glimpses into his, ironically enough, humanity such as when he expressed remorse for the slaughtering of the Namekians and also when he shows appreciation for his family. It's a shame those sentiments aren't applied all of the like in the Future Trunks arc with his future counterparts as someone else mentioned.
I am not sure what people are talking about of course Vegeta cares about Trunks & Bulma in the Future Trunks arc. He doesn’t need to mention it every second.

And Vegeta does stick to his standards. He is saying he wants to do something different from UI which he is. Where did Vegeta not stick to any self imposed standards?

The OP misinterpreted what he meant by “god power”. He was talking out of frustration at not being able to beat Moro and having to rely on “tricks” instead of raw power like how a Saiyan usually fights. But he was willing to do that to beat Moro which is why he went to Yadrat. Being frustrated at a situation but still doing what you need is not going back on what he said.


Destruction on the other hand is something that relies on raw power so I would say it does suit Vegeta more than UI and the “God forms” that he uses are Saiyan forms last time I checked.


The only line I’ll acknowledge was dumb was the teacher line. It might be true Vegeta didn’t have Masters in the past but obviously he has learned things from different people since then and still has things to learn.


But of course this is just another let’s say how bad Vegeta is thread :roll:

Post Reply