Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Kiyoharu
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Kiyoharu » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:48 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:16 pm
If anything it just shows how incompetent they are. Goku in his base form is leagues ahead of Krillin, there was never a need for him to transform into anything, much less his Blue form. What's next, is he and Vegeta going to go Blue just to play a game of baseball... :lolno: Logically speaking, no amount of holding back would prevent Krillin from being turned into a stain on the ground. I'm by no means a power level person, but even I expect some form of logic to be followed.
There are even worse things in Dragon Ball Super.

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Smokes Grenades >>>> Black & Zamasu.

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Tai Lung
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:15 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:16 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:49 pm
If it makes you feel better ... the writers have clearly said that goku is contained in those battles...
If anything it just shows how incompetent they are. Goku in his base form is leagues ahead of Krillin, there was never a need for him to transform into anything, much less his Blue form. What's next, is he and Vegeta going to go Blue just to play a game of baseball... :lolno: Logically speaking, no amount of holding back would prevent Krillin from being turned into a stain on the ground. I'm by no means a power level person, but even I expect some form of logic to be followed.
it doesn't necessarily show that they can control their ki to the point that that's possible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_OT-ahaYbQ
baseball game is a gag episode as is the episode goku and piccolo getting their driving license that episode everyone loves even though piccolo and goku can barely to hold a School bus

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by The Monkey King » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:10 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:08 pm

the kaioken does not have to be illogical ... frieza was about 20 times stronger than "goku base" in the manga and so the fight worked well because he was contained
Why in the world would Beerus go out of his way to fight SSJG Goku in the first place then?
Beerus wanted a physical challenge but the Kaioken x 10 scene in the Universe 6 Tournament means that BoG arc SSJG Goku couldn't have been 10% as strong as Beerus.
It also contradicts the line where Beerus stated he used 10% of his power against rage boost Vegeta and Toriyama's original BoG power scale of SSJG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10 and Whis = 15.

It's a retcon and lousy writing to give us kaioken fan service and the expense of consistent story telling, which was one of DBS' biggest problems throughout its run.
and the other user is wrong because vegito is stronger than trunks rage
Pretty sure Asspull Spirit Bomb Sword Rage Trunks is stronger than SSJB Vegito.
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:20 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:10 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:08 pm

the kaioken does not have to be illogical ... frieza was about 20 times stronger than "goku base" in the manga and so the fight worked well because he was contained
Why in the world would Beerus go out of his way to fight SSJG Goku in the first place then?
Beerus wanted a physical challenge but the Kaioken x 10 scene in the Universe 6 Tournament means that BoG arc SSJG Goku couldn't have been 10% as strong as Beerus.
It also contradicts the line where Beerus stated he used 10% of his power against rage boost Vegeta and Toriyama's original BoG power scale of SSJG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10 and Whis = 15.

It's a retcon and lousy writing to give us kaioken fan service and the expense of consistent story telling, which was one of DBS' biggest problems throughout its run.
not necessarily because beerus and whis lie about their powers depending on the situation either not to reveal information much of them, as for example whis is stronger
however many were misinterpreted ... because a lot was changed from movie to anime
in the anime beerus says "it has been a long time since I use 10% power" and with a fingertip he defeats vegeta then he says "I had more fun with the saiyan from the planet kaio" if the fingertip is his 10 % I do not see it contradictory given the mocking way of showing it leaving vegeta unconscious. in the anime nothing is mentioned about 70% which is logical because the series was going to continue
not really because it remains the same as the original series script, goku used the kaioken x20 against frieza 50% and did not defeat it. in both cases their interest was sparked because they could not believe that there was such a strong Saiyan and he was the first mortal to face him and give him some fun in years either because of the prophecy or that this Saiyan promised to become stronger.
were the reasons to leave him alive
The Monkey King wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:10 pm
Pretty sure Asspull Spirit Bomb Sword Rage Trunks is stronger than SSJB Vegito.
trunks was never able to do this with zamasu
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Why did he win? zamasu's regeneration was failing, because is half mortal as gowasu explains

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Kiyoharu » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:33 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:10 pm
Pretty sure Asspull Spirit Bomb Sword Rage Trunks is stronger than SSJB Vegito.
Yep, Super Mary Sue Trunks is stronger than SSB Vegetto.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:24 am

Tbf, you could make the argument that Vegito significantly weakened him, but it's still bullshit that Trunks was able to do that
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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Kiyoharu » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:34 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:24 am
it's still bullshit that Trunks was able to do that
Everything Trunks did in that arc was bullshit.

Nothing in the Future Trunks arc makes sense.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Lionel » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:04 pm

I actually wouldn't have minded seeing Krillin surpass Base Goku. Dragon Ball has been a nonstop eulogisation of the Saiyans and their boundless potential since the Cell arc after Piccolo "reached the end of his road" by fusing with Kami. You could make the argument that the Freeza arc had laid the groundwork for this glorification with its rehashing of zenkais and the harping on of the as-of-yet-unseen Super Saiyan transformation. No other Z-fighter has had any proper paving of their journey since mid-way through the Cell arc.

Pertaining to the Future Trunks arc, that plotline was rife with out-of-nowhere power creeping and questionable strength interactions but that's been going on since the Freeza arc. Super appears to have stretched it even further out past the boundaries of what one might expect.

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Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:24 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:24 am
Tbf, you could make the argument that Vegito significantly weakened him, but it's still bullshit that Trunks was able to do that
it is like saying that goku base destroyed kid buu but goku ssj3 did not.
vegito said that zamasu was slower ... and there was a time when he got over it a lot. zamasu was no longer immortal and could no longer regenerate

but zamasu did not die since that attack was not going to end his soul

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Why are so many people surprised by 17's increased strength but not Freeza's?

Post by Yellowhex616 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:34 pm

I saw the Piccolo thread and decided to add to this as a reply, because while you could argue that Piccolo could be utilized better, I think a lot of people tend have an emotional bias against or towards certain characters! 17 has been described on the Daizenshuu 7 character list as having an "infinite energy engine" meaning that he has infinite energy and therefor never gets tired.

I've also heard that 17 and 18 are mostly organic, other than the self-destruct bomb (removed by Shenron) and the controller (destroyed by 17) and this infinite energy engine. They basically have artificially engineered, enhanced biological components within them, which I would assume made them superhuman when compared to the average person.

In both the manga and anime, 17 has genki which is a life-force based component of ki, yet during the Moro arc of Dragonball Super, it's revealed that neither 17 or 18 have ki and Moro who you could argue steals Genki was unable to affect 17 or 18?! Now it could be the case that they forgot about 17 and 18's contribution to Goku's Genki-Dama when he fought Majin Buu?!

But what if 17 and 18's superhumanly enhanced biology gave them ever increasing genki or energy which increased based on their physical exertion through neurological and cellular stimulation? What if the genki was being converted into an artificial type of energy by their infinite energy engine over a long period of time?

What if any excess genki was released through the pores of their skin, whilst any excess energy that had been converted from genki was fed back into their body's core physical strength? With this in mind both 17 and 18 could have similar potential to the Saiyans with their build up of core physical strength from exertion, perhaps outweighing their release of any excess energy?!

If their design was such that it could gradually restructure the nature of their life-force, then it's not unbelievable to think that because 17 physically exerted himself more than 18 did over the years, whether it was protecting his island in both the manga and anime, fighting and taming Cell Jr's in the manga and probably training in the anime, he would have obviously built up his energy?!

He got this strong in the space of 13 years, 6 years if you're counting the Buu Saga alone! Yet we're supposed to believe that in the anime, Freeza trained for only 4 months and got thousands upon thousands of times stronger? The only excuses given for Freeza are that he's an alien and he's got high potential and that he never trained a day in his life beforehand!

What I'm saying is that with 17, the evidence points at him having high potential because he's far superior to any ordinary human. Saiyan biology means that Saiyans get stronger after every battle, there is a clearly defined reason for it! You can't say the same thing about Freeza, you see I can create theories that fit perfectly into what we know about the artificial humans!

With Freeza it's more of a 'because the explanation is vague and mysterious, lacking anything of substance to build off of, it makes Freeza a more interesting villain' and this might be a controversial opinion, but I just don't see it. And I don't see why 17 got so much hate for something Freeza did with far more ease and far less explanation?!

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