"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:25 am

I don’t mind that they reinforce stuff that we kind of already knew but I was hoping for more meat from the draft pages.

I guess we will have to wait for Heeta’s plan until the real chapter come out.

That being said I like the idea of Goku eventually always being in the UI State in his base form. I do think that’s kind of new information. But I do wonder what exactly would make the transformed state different from his base form.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:39 am

If Whis is gonna treat "Sign" and "Mastered" as transformations, WHEN HE WAS THE ONE WHO COINED THOSE NAMES IN THE FIRST PLACE, I expect Toyotaro then to be at least minimally competent enough to explain what the hell they are in the first place. Why is it that Angels can do it naturally but Goku, specifically Goku has to dye his hair silver? Can the Angels do that too?

If the transformation is NOT Ultra Instinct itself, since you can use it without it, then WHAT IS IT? Please Toyotaro. Please.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:12 am

This is similar to how none of the Gods need to transform to use God Ki, but Saiyans do (initially, at least). Even Toppo in the manga can access God Ki without changing his physical appearance. It is a Saiyan thing apparently. Honestly, I'm surprised that it was actually addressed with the Ultra Instinct instead of pretending that Goku's situation was no different than that of the angels.

Whis still recognizes Goku's transformed state in the tournament as the true UI, so I think the point is just Goku achieving enough mastery with the technique to the point that he can use it in any state

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:32 am

The "revelation" of what the difference between the angels and Goku is was exactly what we expected, huh. Well, fair enough. It's probably a good thing that Whis is telling Goku to try to learn UI without transforming rather than telling him to be always transformed, I guess, since the latter (which I mentioned on the previous page of the thread) would be pretty much directly lifted from the Cell arc, so I'm not upset about not calling that one.
But I'm wondering a bit about the fact that we're now openly referring to the silver-haired form as a transformation. Haven't we already spent like years debating whether UI is a technique or a transformation? With the talk of the silver eyes and hair being trademarks of UI and all that? I mean, I always kinda figured that it was a transformation that gave you the technique for free, but I don't know, this still strikes me as a bit odd. This bit will probably be explained more throughout the arc, though, to be fair.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:07 am

It's really strange. Moro copied Merus and he "transformed", changing his fur to be white/silver. Wouldn't copying Merus, an angel, mean that Moro shouldn't have to undertake any sort of appearance altering transformation to use UI, as Merus used it as his natural state?

Almost makes me wish that the appearance change was never a thing honestly...

And I'm not really a fan of Goku being able to use UI at will but it's a big drain on stamina like any other transformation. Omen, sure, as it's a weird in-between state. Why should thinking about nothing drain extreme stamina? Especially when the manga has shown it to be extremely serene after he transforms. No aura or anything. I hope the transformed state isn't on the road to being super Saiyan 7.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:32 am

Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:07 am
It's really strange. Moro copied Merus and he "transformed", changing his fur to be white/silver. Wouldn't copying Merus, an angel, mean that Moro shouldn't have to undertake any sort of appearance altering transformation to use UI, as Merus used it as his natural state?

Almost makes me wish that the appearance change was never a thing honestly...

And I'm not really a fan of Goku being able to use UI at will but it's a big drain on stamina like any other transformation. Omen, sure, as it's a weird in-between state. Why should thinking about nothing drain extreme stamina? Especially when the manga has shown it to be extremely serene after he transforms. No aura or anything. I hope the transformed state isn't on the road to being super Saiyan 7.
Perhaps it’s because they are mortals, and Gods need not transform to use the technique. It’s definitely is confusing though

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:16 pm

Honestly does seem like they can't decide on whether Ultra Instinct functions as a technique or a transformation, or both apparently. If this were the intent all along, then the silver-haired form really shouldn't have been introduced at all. Omen looks visually similar enough to Goku's base form where you could handwave it as not being a different form (perhaps just an influx of Ki causing his hair to spike up slightly), but this chapter's explanation seems to needlessly complicate how UI functions.

Hoping for more context in the future though.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:39 pm

Kinda soon to assume things, but boy, DB sucks when it tries to explain how things work. I think I'm starting to prefer leaving things unexplained over the official explanation the show is capable of giving.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:12 pm

Maybe he wont get the UI state in base, maybe is like SSJ, he trained transformed in the cell arc to gain a better/more stamina frindly transformation, but in the end of the day his base form stayed the same. Angels have a better version of UI because they are always in UI
so he may train and be in UI state all the time on this arc to gain a better state like the angels, but in the end that may just give him a Better transformation, not UI on base.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:52 pm

YamiGoku wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:12 pm
Maybe he wont get the UI state in base, maybe is like SSJ, he trained transformed in the cell arc to gain a better/more stamina frindly transformation, but in the end of the day his base form stayed the same. Angels have a better version of UI because they are always in UI
so he may train and be in UI state all the time on this arc to gain a better state like the angels, but in the end that may just give him a Better transformation, not UI on base.
That doesn’t seem like what the drafts are implying. Whis says he needs to learn to use Ultra Instinct without transforming, so I assume it will allow him to use Ultra Instinct in all his forks including base form

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:48 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:21 pm
As I always say, if it changes appearance, even in the slightest (like Ultimate or the Namekuseijin's red-eyed form), it is a transformation.

Anyway, good that this was finally addressed.
Indeed, it seems so. Fair play to you, sir.

Perversely, however, it also seems also that the exchange reaffirms that Ultra Instinct is not, in and of itself, a transformation; else Whis's goal for Goku to use it without transforming himself would be nonsensical. TobyS and LoganForkHands73 suggested a few months back that Goku was transforming, in the literal sense, and that the transformation 'contained' the technique even though the technique is not, in and of itself, a transformation (a fine distinction, but a real one). This position seems to be confirmed by the exchange, so fair play to them too.
jd55513 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:03 am
According to the translations they are going the grade 4 super saiyan route.
Strictly speaking, isn't it the opposite of that approach? SSjIV was about acclimatising to a transformed state as though it were normal, but this is about eschewing a transformation pretty much altogether while retaining the perks that were originally associated with it.
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:58 pm
I guess Toriyama is going to tie this into the Uub fight?
The fight with Uub was literally my first thought with this. In a way, it magnifies the achievement of Uub actually managing to hurt Goku's blocking arm with his attack.
Yuji wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:16 pm
Hoping for more context in the future though.
(And this was literally my second thought).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:15 pm

So, pretty much, Whis wants Goku to always be in instinct. Regardless if he is in base, SSJ and Blue.

No big deal. This will just boost all his modes.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:26 pm

Thinking about this some more, perhaps when Whis says that the silver-haired "Perfected" Ultra Instinct can be used as a conventional power-up, he's talking about the super-toughness it demonstrated against Moro. Going with the idea that it's a transformation to contain the technique which this chapter seems to confirm, the silver-haired form is all about giving the user a body that can withstand the unnatural stress Ultra Instinct causes. Of course, it requires perfect mental control as well (we see what happens when one has the body but lacks the control with Moro), but it's basically a safety net in a way. I think Whis is generally trying to get it through to Goku that UI isn't all about dyeing your hair and dodging really quick, it's more spiritual than that. We'll see if Goku can comprehend these lessons. :lol: Whatever happens, I'm interested in where this goes. I just hope Goku and Vegeta get off Beerus's planet already, they've been there too long.

As for why Goku always needs to transform while others do not... Well, yeah, it's all marketing-driven, that's the unavoidable reality. Toppo will always be an odd case but he presumably just as superior mastery over his godly power, and besides, he's training to be a Destroyer, not an Angel. Seeing as Vegeta uses Hakai (on a pebble, lol) in base form and Beerus obviously doesn't change either, it seems Destruction energy just runs on different logic.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:30 pm

So if Goku learns to use UI in his base, that basically means he has the auto-dodge ability which would also be available in his SSJ forms and SSG forms?

Whis also mentioned only using the UI form as a trump card. So if i'm understanding this correctly, the "form" has the most power, even over base form using the UI technique. Goku using UI in his base might save his life from being attacked with the auto-dodge, but he may not have the same amount of strength as the UI transformation (silver haired form).

By training UI in his base, he would normalize it, and when he transforms into UI (silver haired form) .... the energy drain and strain would be completely eliminated?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:37 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:48 pm
Perversely, however, it also seems also that the exchange reaffirms that Ultra Instinct is not, in and of itself, a transformation; else Whis's goal for Goku to use it without transforming himself would be nonsensical. TobyS and LoganForkHands73 suggested a few months back that Goku was transforming, in the literal sense, and that the transformation 'contained' the technique even though the technique is not, in and of itself, a transformation (a fine distinction, but a real one). This position seems to be confirmed by the exchange, so fair play to them too.
Whenever they talk about the body moving by itself and whatnot, they are referring to the technique aspect. Nothing new here. In the series, as far as I can tell, they never actually talk about the fact that Goku changes appearance. That Goku has to transform in order to use the Ultra Instinct technique is also something I've always said.

Because the transformation still has no name, it is convenient to call it "Ultra Instinct", as well as saying that Ultra Instinct is both a technique and a transformation. Let's see if Toyotaro or Toriyama will give a proper name to the form so that "Ultra Instinct" refers only to the technique, I don't think they will, though...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:35 pm

This is why I think we will see a “SSJ Blue = the NEW SSJ1” a la Revival of F style again! (Pre universe 6 Arc retcon.)

Where Goku will now get a WHITE haired “Super Saiyan” form...

“SSJ UI” !!!

His new Base = UI silver’s full power!

Turning Super Saiyan on top of it is 50x Base UI.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:46 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:48 pm
jd55513 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:03 am
According to the translations they are going the grade 4 super saiyan route.
Strictly speaking, isn't it the opposite of that approach? SSjIV was about acclimatising to a transformed state as though it were normal, but this is about eschewing a transformation pretty much altogether while retaining the perks that were originally associated with it.
Precisely. And it seems this approach has a similar objective, although the methods are definitely opposites.

It’s a little convoluted explanation, but I think the silver-haired form is Ultra Instinct at its apex, with Goku’s body using his full divine energy. While his performance will probably improve in all his forms by tweaking the basics of the technique (if it’s even possible to combine it with Super Saiyan anyway), his full ability can only be extracted by channeling into 100% of his god ki.

(Let’s not forget Oob’s god ki was the key to allow Goku to have another round with Ultra Instinct against Moro. If his god ki is low he can only so far use SSG or SSB.)

Besides, if he reduces the stamina drain to access his full power, I believe a natural consequence is his silver-haired form getting even stronger, like Super Saiyan in Cell Arc did, despite failing to see how exactly using the technique in another form will help with that, with the amount of info Whis gave us until today. This context is what I think the story may address in the future.

Perhaps this is ironically due to Ultra Instinct’s trigger being a opposite to Super Saiyan’s. If he can make his body to get accustomed to the stress of the emotions that come with Super Saiyan and its power, maybe he needs to teach his body to not use his full power and be conservative with energy reserves while it moves. Goku knows he is in a level his body can’t move automatically without spending most of his energy, so maybe this is the start point to think about a solution.

I have been insisting on a particular stuff* recently that may be the answer to this. I’m sure some people have noted how the angels like to dance with their staffs. Not only it helps to stretch the possibilities of movement, but it conserves energy, since the body doesn’t strike directly.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:26 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:07 am
And I'm not really a fan of Goku being able to use UI at will but it's a big drain on stamina like any other transformation. Omen, sure, as it's a weird in-between state. Why should thinking about nothing drain extreme stamina? Especially when the manga has shown it to be extremely serene after he transforms. No aura or anything. I hope the transformed state isn't on the road to being super Saiyan 7.
That’s nothing new. Goku runs out of steam and drops out of the form both in his fight against Jiren and his fight against Earth-Moro. We know it takes effort to maintain compared to ... not transforming at all, even if it’s more stable than Sign.

As for the hows and whats, I guess I seem to be in the minority in that Whis’ explanation sits perfectly well with me. Goku’s silver-haired form is a transformation that allows him to utilize UI, but ideally he shouldn’t need a transformation to use it at all. Since Moro picks up the same visual transformation indicators from copying Merus’ powers, I guess we can assume this is simply the default physical response to tapping into the ability for those not yet well-enough attuned to use it in their normal states. A reflexive ki reaction, I guess.

Of course that’s all techno-babble. The practical story effect is that the clarification gives Goku something further to strive for, and a reason to not always jump straight to his current version of UI.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:45 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:12 am
This is similar to how none of the Gods need to transform to use God Ki, but Saiyans do (initially, at least). Even Toppo in the manga can access God Ki without changing his physical appearance. It is a Saiyan thing apparently.
Yeah. I think the Saiyans have one of the strangest evolutionary lines in the series. I think the series needs to do a deep dive into SSJ mutations and finally explain what these are and why there's so many. It's also a great excuse to separate the Saiyan characters transformations. Seems like the groundwork has been laid to do so already with Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Broly all going separate paths.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:05 am

Cipher wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:26 pm
Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:07 am
And I'm not really a fan of Goku being able to use UI at will but it's a big drain on stamina like any other transformation. Omen, sure, as it's a weird in-between state. Why should thinking about nothing drain extreme stamina? Especially when the manga has shown it to be extremely serene after he transforms. No aura or anything. I hope the transformed state isn't on the road to being super Saiyan 7.
That’s nothing new. Goku runs out of steam and drops out of the form both in his fight against Jiren and his fight against Earth-Moro. We know it takes effort to maintain compared to ... not transforming at all, even if it’s more stable than Sign.

As for the hows and whats, I guess I seem to be in the minority in that Whis’ explanation sits perfectly well with me. Goku’s silver-haired form is a transformation that allows him to utilize UI, but ideally he shouldn’t need a transformation to use it at all. Since Moro picks up the same visual transformation indicators from copying Merus’ powers, I guess we can assume this is simply the default physical response to tapping into the ability for those not yet well-enough attuned to use it in their normal states. A reflexive ki reaction, I guess.

Of course that’s all techno-babble. The practical story effect is that the clarification gives Goku something further to strive for, and a reason to not always jump straight to his current version of UI.
Yeah, I understand that it had certain issues in the past with maintaining it, but it was described in the Jiren fight as the reactions themselves taking a toll on Goku who has only just learned the technique; not the actual transformation itself being stamina draining. I would say that the ToP arc goes out of its way to describe the technique as the triumph of martial arts and movement over power, but this latest revelation makes it clear that the form itself is a massive power boost.

You are right that the Moro arc went out of its way to signify that it needs a lot of divine energy and will not last otherwise. Merus also says that it is more stable the stronger a person is. I wasn't a fan of those aspects compared to how it was initially explained in the ToP, and I think this is a continuation of a road I already wasn't a fan of ultra instinct going down. When Goku masters ultra instinct in his other forms the form will essentially just be another super saiyan transformation.

My feelings are not set in stone right now anyway. I'm sure I'll just get used to it. It's just jarring when something is totally different to how I imagined it worked.

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