Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by BWri » Sun May 02, 2021 8:18 pm

Cipher wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:56 pm
BWri wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 12:57 pm
Not sure, probably no - Zamasu (future. He says he's weaker than the others but uses his magic to defeat Goku. Weirdly, Goku is SSB in one panel and apparently SSJ in the next without any panel showing the transition and no mention of him doing this either. I guess he depowered himself off panel, but then he loses the fight without transforming to a stronger form? Was this a late stage correction? I wasn't aware, but this is probably the oddest fight in the manga. After a zenkai, or not, zenkais are weird now, Goku is able to easily defeat Zamasu in SSG, but he's a lot stronger than he was in BoG.)
Goku comments at one point that Trunks alone could beat Zamasu, so that one seems pretty clear.
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Nope - Zamasu
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun May 02, 2021 10:25 pm

RoF:
Final Form Frieza Anime/Movie/Manga Yes
Base Vegeta Anime retcom no ... in manga no

U6 Arc:
Final Form Frost No
SSJ Cabba No
Magetta No

ToP:
Kale Manga Yes And Anime No
SSJ2 Caulifla
Kefla Anime/Manga Yes
Ultimate Gohan Anime/Manga Yes

Moro Arc:
#17 Anime/Manga Yes
#18 Anime/Manga No
Ultimate Gohan Anime/Manga Yes
Piccolo Anime/Manga Yes
Saganbo Anime/Manga Yes

---------------------------------------------------------

Image

Image
Image


Gohan>Piccolo>> 17 >>18

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon May 03, 2021 5:04 pm

I don't think Piccolo's case is that definitive. If he was god level it would have been stated. I'm very curious how Toei tackles this.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by BWri » Mon May 03, 2021 8:41 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:04 pm
I don't think Piccolo's case is that definitive. If he was god level it would have been stated. I'm very curious how Toei tackles this.
This isn't always the case. They don't always state when current characters have surpassed outdated levels of power. SSG is irrelevant vs. Moro and Saganbo.
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Lionel » Mon May 03, 2021 10:16 pm

Piccolo being SSJG tier or greater doesn't impact anything. It's as others have already noted -- the level itself is so inconsequential now that it would be similar to Chaozu boasting a power level comparable to Dodoria or Zarbon while the veterans of the fight against Freeza are standing, weather-worn but alive and polished with power levels in the millions thanks to the experiences they had.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by BWri » Tue May 04, 2021 12:18 pm

Lionel wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:16 pm
Piccolo being SSJG tier or greater doesn't impact anything. It's as others have already noted -- the level itself is so inconsequential now that it would be similar to Chaozu boasting a power level comparable to Dodoria or Zarbon while the veterans of the fight against Freeza are standing, weather-worn but alive and polished with power levels in the millions thanks to the experiences they had.
Right! No one compared Roshi to Raditz, Nappa, or the Ginyu Force even though those would be major milestones for him. No one even compared Gohan to SSG and yet we know he is stronger than an SSG, at least one prior to the Moro arc.
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 04, 2021 3:11 pm

Cipher wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:56 pm
BWri wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 12:57 pm
Not sure, probably no - Zamasu (future. He says he's weaker than the others but uses his magic to defeat Goku. Weirdly, Goku is SSB in one panel and apparently SSJ in the next without any panel showing the transition and no mention of him doing this either. I guess he depowered himself off panel, but then he loses the fight without transforming to a stronger form? Was this a late stage correction? I wasn't aware, but this is probably the oddest fight in the manga. After a zenkai, or not, zenkais are weird now, Goku is able to easily defeat Zamasu in SSG, but he's a lot stronger than he was in BoG.)
Goku comments at one point that Trunks alone could beat Zamasu, so that one seems pretty clear.

Re: above: Good luck making heads or tails of anime Kale.
It should be noted that Goku can be wrong/can misjudge the opponent's power level, he also thought that Monaka was strong after all.

So just because Goku thinks Future Zamasu is weak doesn't really mean much. Maybe Trunks would be enough to beat him, maybe he wouldn't.
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Yuji » Tue May 04, 2021 5:14 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 3:11 pm
Cipher wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:56 pm
BWri wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 12:57 pm
Not sure, probably no - Zamasu (future. He says he's weaker than the others but uses his magic to defeat Goku. Weirdly, Goku is SSB in one panel and apparently SSJ in the next without any panel showing the transition and no mention of him doing this either. I guess he depowered himself off panel, but then he loses the fight without transforming to a stronger form? Was this a late stage correction? I wasn't aware, but this is probably the oddest fight in the manga. After a zenkai, or not, zenkais are weird now, Goku is able to easily defeat Zamasu in SSG, but he's a lot stronger than he was in BoG.)
Goku comments at one point that Trunks alone could beat Zamasu, so that one seems pretty clear.

Re: above: Good luck making heads or tails of anime Kale.
It should be noted that Goku can be wrong/can misjudge the opponent's power level, he also thought that Monaka was strong after all.

So just because Goku thinks Future Zamasu is weak doesn't really mean much. Maybe Trunks would be enough to beat him, maybe he wouldn't.
That was more-so for gag purposes. In a serious scenario, Goku is pretty apt at reading opponents' strength. Trunks also managed to overpower Zamasu and stab him with his sword, being shortly afterward overpowered by Black. Goku also reverted back to SS1 to handle Zamasu in their first fight, and handled Zamasu quite comfortably in SSG. So Zamasu at the very least should be ridiculously weaker than SSG. Considering Trunks is about on-par with SS3 Goku, it seems likely he would be stronger than Zamasu with all of this added together.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 04, 2021 5:25 pm

Yeah, we have to learn to distinguish between gags from serious moments, one character making a mistake just to serve a gag, doesn't diminish their capacity for doing something nor stamps a THIS-GUY-HAS-PROVEN-TO-BE-UNREALIABLE-FROM-NOW-ON label on their forehead. That's not how gags work.
Besides, the context is clear on this particular case and makes the authorial intent a no-brainer.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 04, 2021 5:34 pm

Yuji wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:14 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 3:11 pm
Cipher wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:56 pm

Goku comments at one point that Trunks alone could beat Zamasu, so that one seems pretty clear.

Re: above: Good luck making heads or tails of anime Kale.
It should be noted that Goku can be wrong/can misjudge the opponent's power level, he also thought that Monaka was strong after all.

So just because Goku thinks Future Zamasu is weak doesn't really mean much. Maybe Trunks would be enough to beat him, maybe he wouldn't.
That was more-so for gag purposes. In a serious scenario, Goku is pretty apt at reading opponents' strength. Trunks also managed to overpower Zamasu and stab him with his sword, being shortly afterward overpowered by Black. Goku also reverted back to SS1 to handle Zamasu in their first fight, and handled Zamasu quite comfortably in SSG. So Zamasu at the very least should be ridiculously weaker than SSG. Considering Trunks is about on-par with SS3 Goku, it seems likely he would be stronger than Zamasu with all of this added together.
Why? Because you don't like the fact that Goku isn't omniscient? :think:

Regardless I didn't say Zamasu is weaker or stronger than Trunks, I simply said that that statement is not convincing enough.
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Thani » Tue May 04, 2021 5:34 pm

Yuji wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:14 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 3:11 pm
Cipher wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:56 pm

Goku comments at one point that Trunks alone could beat Zamasu, so that one seems pretty clear.

Re: above: Good luck making heads or tails of anime Kale.
It should be noted that Goku can be wrong/can misjudge the opponent's power level, he also thought that Monaka was strong after all.

So just because Goku thinks Future Zamasu is weak doesn't really mean much. Maybe Trunks would be enough to beat him, maybe he wouldn't.
That was more-so for gag purposes. In a serious scenario, Goku is pretty apt at reading opponents' strength. Trunks also managed to overpower Zamasu and stab him with his sword, being shortly afterward overpowered by Black. Goku also reverted back to SS1 to handle Zamasu in their first fight, and handled Zamasu quite comfortably in SSG. So Zamasu at the very least should be ridiculously weaker than SSG. Considering Trunks is about on-par with SS3 Goku, it seems likely he would be stronger than Zamasu with all of this added together.
Goku initially underestimated Future Zamasu after overwhelming him in Blue - the fact that Zamasu was able to catch SSj Goku and hold him down proves his power was greater than Goku's - nothing really awesome, though, since his regular super saiyan forms are outclassed by both Vegeta and Trunks.

So that Zamasu floats somewhere between stronger than SSj Goku to a match for Trunks (regardless if Goku was right or wrong, Zamasu was offended enough that he brought it up after fusing). Still no match for SSG, even if the one from BoG.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 04, 2021 5:37 pm

Goku also thought that Broly was stronger than Beerus by the way, now it becomes clear that that cannot be.

So just because Goku thinks/speculates that Trunks would be able to defeat Zamasu isn't really saying much. It could also be that even if Trunks had more raw strength than Zamasu, Zamasu would pull off a win thanks to Kai hax.
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Yuji » Tue May 04, 2021 5:39 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:34 pm
Why? Because you don't like the fact that Goku isn't omniscient? :think:
Because everything surrounding Monaka is clearly comic in tone...?

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 04, 2021 5:42 pm

Yuji wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:39 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:34 pm
Why? Because you don't like the fact that Goku isn't omniscient? :think:
Because everything surrounding Monaka is clearly comic in tone...?
Was it also a gag moment when Goku speculated that Broly was stronger than Beerus?
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue May 04, 2021 5:54 pm

BWri wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 8:41 pm
This isn't always the case. They don't always state when current characters have surpassed outdated levels of power. SSG is irrelevant vs. Moro and Saganbo.
Lionel wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:16 pm
Piccolo being SSJG tier or greater doesn't impact anything. It's as others have already noted -- the level itself is so inconsequential now that it would be similar to Chaozu boasting a power level comparable to Dodoria or Zarbon while the veterans of the fight against Freeza are standing, weather-worn but alive and polished with power levels in the millions thanks to the experiences they had.
BWri wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:18 pm
Right! No one compared Roshi to Raditz, Nappa, or the Ginyu Force even though those would be major milestones for him. No one even compared Gohan to SSG and yet we know he is stronger than an SSG, at least one prior to the Moro arc.
Yep. I agree with all of this. It's what I always tried to explain.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Yuji » Tue May 04, 2021 5:58 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:42 pm
Yuji wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:39 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:34 pm
Why? Because you don't like the fact that Goku isn't omniscient? :think:
Because everything surrounding Monaka is clearly comic in tone...?
Was it also a gag moment when Goku speculated that Broly was stronger than Beerus?
Not really no, but there he specifically states his uncertainty by saying "maybe" (not like we have confirmation either way between who's stronger, so it's not like he's wrong). He said Zamasu was concretely weaker than Trunks.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 04, 2021 7:08 pm

Goku fought both, Zamasu and Trunks, while in the Broly-Beerus scenario, he never fought Beerus' full power, or even witnessed it for that matter, currently he still hasn't.

He clearly has enough experience to comment on Zamasu and Trunks, while he is out of his depth in the other case.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed May 05, 2021 4:03 am

Yuji wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:58 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:42 pm
Yuji wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:39 pm


Because everything surrounding Monaka is clearly comic in tone...?
Was it also a gag moment when Goku speculated that Broly was stronger than Beerus?
Not really no, but there he specifically states his uncertainty by saying "maybe" (not like we have confirmation either way between who's stronger, so it's not like he's wrong). He said Zamasu was concretely weaker than Trunks.
We have confirmation, Beerus is a moving goal post while Broly is a defeated antagonist, thus logic implies that Beerus > Broly.

And the point is that Goku is still ASSUMING something, even if he doesn't the word "maybe" it's still an assumption, nothing more. That's not concrete/conclusive evidence.
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Thani » Wed May 05, 2021 8:27 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:03 am
Yuji wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:58 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:42 pm


Was it also a gag moment when Goku speculated that Broly was stronger than Beerus?
Not really no, but there he specifically states his uncertainty by saying "maybe" (not like we have confirmation either way between who's stronger, so it's not like he's wrong). He said Zamasu was concretely weaker than Trunks.
We have confirmation, Beerus is a moving goal post while Broly is a defeated antagonist, thus logic implies that Beerus > Broly.

And the point is that Goku is still ASSUMING something, even if he doesn't the word "maybe" it's still an assumption, nothing more. That's not concrete/conclusive evidence.
Didn't Goku used the word "probably", as in, as far as he knows, he's pretty sure Broly is the stronger of the two? He didn't seem uncertain in that scene, either.

I honestly dislike this "Moving Goalpost Beerus" thing that is going on. We're now three arcs removed from the Tournament of Power, where our heroes faced a supposedly "GoD+" level opponent, the enemies supposedly only got stronger, and we're still not close enough to Beerus to give him a real chance of defeat? Jesus Christ, Tori/Toyo.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by BWri » Wed May 05, 2021 11:58 am

Thani wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 8:27 am
I honestly dislike this "Moving Goalpost Beerus" thing that is going on. We're now three arcs removed from the Tournament of Power, where our heroes faced a supposedly "GoD+" level opponent, the enemies supposedly only got stronger, and we're still not close enough to Beerus to give him a real chance of defeat? Jesus Christ, Tori/Toyo.
I'm convinced that Beerus is training off-panel, just like Roshi. It would make sense for him to do so after finding out that Goku had a better mastery of UI than he does. I wish King Kai would do the same to perfect Kaioken and maybe teach it to the others.

I would also say that it doesn't make a ton of sense that Beerus is that much better than the other GoDs but out of universe, Toriyama-san and Toyotaro place a lot of favor on U7. Each character is the strongest type of character in the multiverse: Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are the strongest saiyans, Piccolo is the strongest Namekian, #17 is the strongest Cyborg, Freeza is the strongest ... whatever he is, the humans are likely the strongest humans, and Beerus is the strongest GoD. I think only Whis is second fiddle to Vados but we don't even know that for sure.
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