Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

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Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:48 am

Would anyone like to see something (conceptually) similar to the Garlic Jr. Saga, where Goku and Vegeta are both unavailable for some reason and can't contribute, so it will be up to everyone else to stop the villain? For good measure, we could also make Buu, Gohan, and 17 indisposed too, so they have to rely on Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, 18, and even Yamcha, Roshi, and Chiaotzu.

Obviously the villain they'd be dealing with wouldn't be someone on the same threat level as Moro, Beerus, etc. but still someone they would have to work hard to beat. We could also see more use of strategy and planning, and the Saiyan lust for battle wouldn't get in the way. Maybe a situation where Piccolo thinks that if Goku or Vegeta were there, they would have just rushed in and attacked, and fallen for some kind of trap, but Piccolo was smart enough to see through it and manage to win.

This would also be a good way to avoid the whole 'random new character is suddenly the strongest in the universe' problem. You can have a villain who is formidable, but not god tier.
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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Trouser » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:22 am

There was a time when I really wanted to see something like that! But...
As much as I'd like an arc without Goku and Vegeta, I don't want to see Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Roshi, and Chiaotzu fight again. They are retired fighters (well, except Tenshinhan maybe). They should be left alone long time ago. Every time they are brought back, something wrong is happening (like Tenshinhan being unable to offense somebody, Piccolo getting knocked out of the ring like an amateur or Roshi having hax powerups or even his presence on battlefield which is absurd). Not to mention that they are always an last afterthought and they job fighting with fodder. Let's not embarras them more...
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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:20 am

Trouser wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:22 am
There was a time when I really wanted to see something like that! But...
As much as I'd like an arc without Goku and Vegeta, I don't want to see Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Roshi, and Chiaotzu fight again. They are retired fighters (well, except Tenshinhan maybe). They should be left alone long time ago. Every time they are brought back, something wrong is happening (like Tenshinhan being unable to offense somebody, Piccolo getting knocked out of the ring like an amateur or Roshi having hax powerups or even his presence on battlefield which is absurd). Not to mention that they are always an last afterthought and they job fighting with fodder. Let's not embarras them more...
Piccolo got knockout by someone that was about to eliminate Android 17 if Goku was not they to save him. Roshi eliminated a guy that could become stronger then Goku and Vegeta if he did not get rid of him. Tenshinhan got rid of a sniper that could be trouble later on.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by nhienphan2808 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:08 am

I would be down for a teen Trunks and Goten arc with Goku and Vegeta as supports. I don't want to see the Earthlings.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:26 am

I'd like a mini arc like that, yes.

But enough with the earthlings, they are useless since Namek. Gohan, Piccolo, Goten/Trunks, 17 and 18 should suffice, but it would have to be a short arc, like a two-chapter situation, or a 5 episode arc.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by ayakuweb » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:24 pm

I think it'd be cool if we could from time to time see how Future Trunks is doing.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:24 pm

No. This show is about Goku & Vegeta. They should NEVER sit an Arc out! How this thought could even occur to anyone is beyond me.
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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:13 pm

I would perhaps like one of them to be absent, but not both.

For me, one of the things I preferred about the ToP compared to a lot of other Super arcs was that Goku got a lot more focus than Vegeta. This isn't necessarily due to me wanting more Goku, but more that it was a change to the usual dynamic. Vegeta, 17 and Freeza got a similar amount of interesting moments. I'd like something more like that, especially with newer characters.

I miss how characters used to get brought into the main gang with old Dragon Ball. Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Vegeta, 18, Boo etc. I want to see more of Jiren or Merus or Hit.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:28 pm

Dragon Ball made pretty clear that even when Goku's not supposed to be the centre of a main story arc, everything ends up gravitating towards him in some fashion and he just becomes the elephant in the room - rather than being defined by his presence, the arc becomes defined by his absence because it has to be addressed, so trying to get away from him is almost pointless. I'd only really be happy with deviating from a focus on Dragon Ball's actual main character in a full main story arc if the arc were 'forward-looking' in some fashion (e.g., a focus on Uub having an adventure of some sort), else it wouldn't be able to hide its 'sideshow' nature.

That said, I'd be more than happy to see as many one-shot spin-offs focusing on other cast members adventuring somewhere in Dragon World as may be published (that is, actual sideshows that aren't trying to be anything else), and I'd be happy enough to see Goku attended by a partner other than Vegeta for an arc, for a different dynamic.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Yuji » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:23 pm

I don't think you could conceivably write a villain that's threatening enough yet vulnerable enough to be defeated by the other members of the Dragon Team without making the audience think "oh, this could have been over in 5 seconds if Goku and Vegeta were here." That kind of story would have worked between the Cell and Boo arcs (or the Boo arc itself, if it had taken a different route), but while the current paradigm of Goku and Vegeta being the strongest remains, then such an arc will inevitably feel filler-y unless it deliberately presents itself as only a side attraction.

That being said, Vegeta should absolutely sit one arc out and be gradually phased out from the deuteragonist spot.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by nhienphan2808 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:19 am

I don't think at this point Vegeta could be satisfyingly phased out. He could sit out an arc like he almost did when TOP began, but phase out ? No. Goku has always needed others to buy him time and space and context for his battles, and Vegeta is the only one that could match him in that. It would be like Buu again where Goku hypothetically could start and finish his own fight, but after everyone else had their try and screw up, you needed Vegeta to finish the arc.

Now even without Majin Vegeta to kickstart thing, we've reached the point where Goku's both backstory and and main story is interconnected with his. You kinda cant write Goku well without him anymore, as his without Goku. For the entirety of Super lore since 2013 (except the manga because i have many things to say about Toyoraro's Vegeta and one of that is he is NOT the Vegeta i know), Vegeta is the sole provider of context for Goku's story.

Beerus and Whis? they wouldnt come if they had no relations with Vegeta and Saiyans in the past, and wouldnt stay if not for Vegeta's wife's help.
Frieza? He's Vegeta's old enemy.
Future Trunks? Vegeta's son and family.
Broly? He attacked Vegeta first because bad blood now. If not you get Z Broly's nonsense.

Also Super Saiyan God and all its variation, in a way, is Vegeta's form., the way SSJ was Goku's
Goku "makes things happen" and is fun when he comes on screen, but he lacks the intent Vegeta has. Ultimately, Goku is a passive hero. He fights by the seats of his pants just like how Toriyama writes. He needs a reason and context lest he become a dumbass full blown villain. As a friend and partner who provides WHY and HOW Goku fights, Vegeta is pretty much the new Grandpa Gohan of DB and Kid Gohan of DBZ - The entirely of Dragon Ball's adventures happens because Goku wants to find his dragon ball, as well as saving his son in DBZ.
As a rival, say you could hypothetically make someone like Hit Goku's new Vegeta, but you kinda cant write this much bulk of history and backstory and PERSONALITY to make them engaging.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by BWri » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:50 am

I'd love it, personally. Moro gave us teases of the old formula where Goku (& in this case Vegeta) trains or recovers in the background while the rest of the team fight the bad guys. It was great! It would have been even better if Goku didn't have to save every single one of them before his confrontation with Moro :lolno: but that's just how it is. I think even more can be done.

I love the idea of the "B Team" and even "C Team" having agency, adventures, powerups, and fights all to themselves to showcase that they're these strong willed and prideful fighters we so want them to be. I think they have a lot to bring to the table just as long as their current opponent isn't the Ultra Uber Omega Stongest Guy In Existence Ever!!! (for this arc) Imagine a story arc where its Gohan that has to help the Future Trunks' and they have to rely on themselves instead of their dads. A true passing of the torch moment for the series and at the end of it we'd finally see other characters being effective and useful.

I normally hate this trope since DC writers can't stop using it, but I'd even like to see an arc where both Goku and Vegeta get mind-controlled/possessed/etc so that we could see the rest of the cast put in a herculean effort to try to stop them and the bad guys.
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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Kagari » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:43 pm

Vegeta was benched for a good chunk of the anime Universe Survival arc so it's not impossible.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:06 pm

Its' really going to depend on what the next couple of chapters are gonna be about. Because I am also feeling fatigue with the "Goku and Vegeta fight the villain, get their asses kicked, do more training, fight again. This arc really needs to really do something different.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Yuji » Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:53 pm

Really baffled by the idea that it's impossible to phase out Vegeta when that has been Dragon Ball's approach to rivals since forever. I'm sure folks would also say it would have been impossible for Piccolo to fall off at the start of the Saiyan arc yet here we are. Vegeta was also written as a side character for most of the series after the Saiyan arc. He never had such a prominent role as he's been having since the revival. He could be conceivably phased out if the writing staff refused to adhere to the unwritten rule that Vegeta must catch up to Goku at all times, and let Goku pull ahead and mix with a newer cast and develop dynamics with them. Dragon Ball has always been Goku's story. Vegeta has been integral to it for a long time but that doesn't always have to be so.

For my mind, there is almost nothing you could do with the Goku Vegeta dynamic at this point that hasn't been done already, and the few things that could be interesting (the two working together from the start instead of taking turns, Vegeta starting an arc ahead and having Goku catch up instead to show off his more competitive side) the writing staff has demonstrated they are unwilling to try.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:31 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:53 pm
Really baffled by the idea that it's impossible to phase out Vegeta when that has been Dragon Ball's approach to rivals since forever. I'm sure folks would also say it would have been impossible for Piccolo to fall off at the start of the Saiyan arc yet here we are. Vegeta was also written as a side character for most of the series after the Saiyan arc. He never had such a prominent role as he's been having since the revival. He could be conceivably phased out if the writing staff refused to adhere to the unwritten rule that Vegeta must catch up to Goku at all times, and let Goku pull ahead and mix with a newer cast and develop dynamics with them. Dragon Ball has always been Goku's story. Vegeta has been integral to it for a long time but that doesn't always have to be so.

For my mind, there is almost nothing you could do with the Goku Vegeta dynamic at this point that hasn't been done already, and the few things that could be interesting (the two working together from the start instead of taking turns, Vegeta starting an arc ahead and having Goku catch up instead to show off his more competitive side) the writing staff has demonstrated they are unwilling to try.
Vegeta has arguably been a far major player than any of the other rival characters including Piccolo. Vegeta was never a side character. He was central in some way to every arc. Usually messing things up but he certainly was not a minor player.

You could certainly argue that Vegeta’s character arc successfully ended in Z but really Dragon Ball was not meant to go on past that. There really isn’t a strong character arc for any character in Modern Dragon Ball beyond Goku wants to continue to meet stronger opponents. I’d argue that is also because modern Dragon Ball doesn’t want to do anything really new with these characters. It seems more like we get a new character/villain every arc they may have some minor development and then we never or barely hear from them again (Beerus, Whis and Jaco kind of being the exceptions) . But it’s not like the story can’t do anything new with Vegeta. It’s just they seem not willing to.

Also I am not saying Goku can never be paired up with other characters to change the dynamic more. In fact I’d like that and for Vegeta too. And yeah I think it be perfectly fine for Vegeta to sit out an arc but I don’t think they need to retire him. I mean of course that is bias speaking I wouldn’t be as interested in Dragon Ball without him there even if what they do with his character isn’t as interesting as what they did in Z.
But to me that is more a symptom of modern Dragon Ball not wanting to change than Vegeta or even the Goku & Vegeta dynamic.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by nhienphan2808 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:58 am

Goku's last major rival, Piccolo, is originally and has returned to be sort of a Mage more than a fighter. Vegeta is a Saiyan like Goku. Unless you can make Hit or Uub or whoever belong to a race as fighting oriented as Saiyans, Vegeta will never phase out from that position. Gohan is so past his prime that i find every one of his Super appearance forced and convoluted. Even if you can make a new rival for Goku, like how you did with Broly and Frieza, they are both directly related to Vegeta's history and you need THAT kind of history to be relevant to Goku. Even someone like Cell is related to what happened back in Dragon Ball.
That said, with the way Toyotaro is writing Vegeta, he is boring and should be retired. That's not Toriyama Vegeta. Toriyama Vegeta is not this predictable and tiring. But then again, Toyotaro doesnt know how to write Goku either. So i hope Toriyama can surprise us once more with the new movie or any new material he would pen in the future.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Lionel » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:57 pm

Others have explained the rationality of the Saiyan duo remaining constant presences best. If the others were to take the centre stage and be the ones to engage a major threat then I suspect that for it to not feel like a superfluous write-off it would have to tie in somehow with Goku and Vegeta's narratives. Principally the Baby character does utilise this concept in a way due to the nature of his character being a manipulative parasite who purposes the strength of others for his own ends. Garlic jr in reverse might also serve this function as the broader cast are the main agents of the arc with a past encounter against Goku and his rival at the time.

If there was going to be any sort of dedication to the non Goku/Vegeta members then I would hope for it to carry some weight to itself and not be a meaningless excursion to assuage the fanbase's desire for someone that isn't the golden boys.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:09 pm

A scenario I've been wanting to see is teen Goten and Trunks insisting on handling a villain on their own to test out the results of their training.. As for the other characters like Tenshinhan and Piccolo, I'd like to see them join the Galactic Patrol for a spin off series.

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Re: Should Goku and Vegeta sit an arc out?

Post by Kagari » Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:37 pm

Lionel wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:57 pm
Others have explained the rationality of the Saiyan duo remaining constant presences best. If the others were to take the centre stage and be the ones to engage a major threat then I suspect that for it to not feel like a superfluous write-off it would have to tie in somehow with Goku and Vegeta's narratives. Principally the Baby character does utilise this concept in a way due to the nature of his character being a manipulative parasite who purposes the strength of others for his own ends. Garlic jr in reverse might also serve this function as the broader cast are the main agents of the arc with a past encounter against Goku and his rival at the time.

If there was going to be any sort of dedication to the non Goku/Vegeta members then I would hope for it to carry some weight to itself and not be a meaningless excursion to assuage the fanbase's desire for someone that isn't the golden boys.
Everything in Super centers on Goku at the core, Vegeta is just around as a sidekick so he is not necessary to remain center stage. Like I said before, Vegeta was benched for a lot of the Universe Survival arc in the anime because... he just didn't need to be there, it wasn't his story. It's the same for everything else. He's a support character who gets swapped out for Trunks at one point, and Gohan at another and then Freeza and 17 in the last few episodes. Saying he has to be there isn't quite right when Goku's story continues without him present or not.

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