"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 912
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 am

By now it's established that I don't like where this arc is going, or where it's currently at, so I won't rehash all of that.

I'll just say that it would've been nice if it was established before that Granolah could make doombots shadow clones copies of himself, even if in a diminished capacity. It had no punch this chapter because it's just a random new power introduced out of nowhere. You could say "Oh, it's just Tenshinhan's technique," and.. okay? Where does he get his abilities from? Whose abilities are on the table?

Whoops, I was getting into more of what I don't like. This arc needs more structure.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

User avatar
BOEGVELD
Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:29 pm
Location: Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BOEGVELD » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:35 am

I feel like they're afraid of making Goku too strong, which is why these weaknesses keep showing up. I don't understand why though. UI shouldn't be the biggest problem when they're giving these antagonist dozens of abilities. Kinda wish Goku and Vegeta would go through a training arc where they learn some new and useful abilities too. Perhaps from the Yardrats.

ZodiacBeast
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:18 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:54 am

I wish they had just focused on Granollah being unbelievably accurate instead of having to add another way that Goku could be beat. As in, he's so accurate that, no matter what you do to evade him, his attack is going to hit you.

Make Granollah have an ability that is similar but different to UI.

User avatar
Yuji
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 417
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:59 am

Count me among those starting to notice some structural deficiencies in spite of the arc's strong start and premise. A couple of scattered thoughts:

- Nice to see Toyotarou use the forest scenery for some interesting choreography and set pieces. Toriyama progressively incorporated the environment less and less into his fight scenes, choosing rocky wastelands as his background of choice, so it's nice to see his sucessor mix it up. It does feel like the scale of the fights has lessened though. In DB, the increasing scale and stakes necessitated broader, unpopulated environments where characters could go all out; adding to that, the addition of flight also reduced ground game, therefore by extension environmental interactivity, to near zero. As such, Goku and Granolah zipping around a small forest feels comparatively less in scale compared to the planet rocking bouts of earlier arcs. Though I also feel like the constant shots to the Sugarians and last chapter's action help remedy this. Very great choreography throughout, however, in spite of Toyotarou's repeated use of some moves (Granolah's spinning recovery has been used by almost every character at this point).

- I feel like Toyotarou relies on stamina as a narrative crutch too much. Ultra Instinct is following the same progression structure as Blue. I was hoping he would find a more creative flaw for UI besides stamina usage. It is not very perfected/complete, even though last arc made it seem as such. I wonder where we'll go from here once Goku can utilize the technique in his lesser forms and the silver form is devoid of stamina consumption issues.

- Disappointed to see once again the same structure of Goku and Vegeta taking turns. It is time that the trope is subverted either by having both fighting together from the start, or having them face the villain individually at separate points in the story (thus being forced organically not to work together instead of repeating the same character choice every arc). It is especially grating when you consider the fact that teamwork was a crucial theme in the last three arcs (four if you count the movie) plus RF and the Boo arc. The current arc does have a bit more justification considering Goku and Vegeta are now learning under different masters with different styles, but it is still jarring to think they have not moved past it. It is not that crucial a characteristic to their personalities that it needs be reiterated every arc.

- Vegeta accepting his destructive roots is an interesting development. It works thematically within the arc as he needs to be in a destructive mindset to learn Destruction, but it does feel like a 180 from last arc's behavior. I assume Vegeta is putting on a facade in order to try and master Destruction, and should it fail, he will learn this arc to strike a balance between guilt and acceptance over his and his people's past behavior. If he truly accepts his destructive tendencies, I am curious to see where that takes the character.

- Agreed on someone's point before that Granolah's abilities feel like someone inventing them on the spot on a playground. There could have easily been more foreshadowing to such a plot crucial ability before, as there was for his Destruction technique.

Cautiously optimistic still.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:25 am

Groundhog Day vibes again with UI and stamina.

User avatar
PurestEvil
Regular
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:26 am

I agree that this new chapter has left a few peculiar holes in the story. I hope that Granola's discovery of his powers are elaborated, but I am not entirely confident Toyo will do that. Moreover, I don't know what to make of Goku's comment on PUI becoming "sloppy" overtime. IMV, he could either be referring to his stamina being drained or the actual effect of the technique decreasing over time. I HOPE it is not the former, we don't need to do that nonsense again. If it is the latter, then it could explain how he can get caught off guard with it.

I will say, when the arc was initiated back in January, I thought that it would mark a change in pace for Dragon Ball Super. If these issues are not resolved and more of them accumulate in the next couple of chapters, then I cannot be confident that it will change at all.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

User avatar
Jack Bz
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 332
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:45 am

TKA wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 am
By now it's established that I don't like where this arc is going, or where it's currently at, so I won't rehash all of that.

I'll just say that it would've been nice if it was established before that Granolah could make doombots shadow clones copies of himself, even if in a diminished capacity. It had no punch this chapter because it's just a random new power introduced out of nowhere. You could say "Oh, it's just Tenshinhan's technique," and.. okay? Where does he get his abilities from? Whose abilities are on the table?

Whoops, I was getting into more of what I don't like. This arc needs more structure.
I've theorised before that it is the same ki clone technique Goku uses against Whis when they were sparring a few chapters ago, which is inline with Granolah learning other godly techniques via the wish. Whis also says this:

Image

So I actually see it as pretty clever but subtle foreshadowing, and a good illustration of how far ahead Whis is compared to Goku. Toyo has used subtle foreshadowing to good effect before, such as 17 beating Belmod's own universe in the ToP by playing dead after he himself played dead in the GoD battle royale.

User avatar
BOEGVELD
Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:29 pm
Location: Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BOEGVELD » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:11 am

PurestEvil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:26 am
I agree that this new chapter has left a few peculiar holes in the story. I hope that Granola's discovery of his powers are elaborated, but I am not entirely confident Toyo will do that. Moreover, I don't know what to make of Goku's comment on PUI becoming "sloppy" overtime. IMV, he could either be referring to his stamina being drained or the actual effect of the technique decreasing over time. I HOPE it is not the former, we don't need to do that nonsense again. If it is the latter, then it could explain how he can get caught off guard with it.

I will say, when the arc was initiated back in January, I thought that it would mark a change in pace for Dragon Ball Super. If these issues are not resolved and more of them accumulate in the next couple of chapters, then I cannot be confident that it will change at all.
It seems to be both, sadly. Whis stated that the form drains stamina during their training, and Granolah said its accuracy decreased the longer he used it. I really hate the fact that every form needs some sort of drawback. Especially when this problem didn't even exist in the previous arc.

User avatar
PurestEvil
Regular
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:18 am

BOEGVELD wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:11 am
PurestEvil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:26 am
I agree that this new chapter has left a few peculiar holes in the story. I hope that Granola's discovery of his powers are elaborated, but I am not entirely confident Toyo will do that. Moreover, I don't know what to make of Goku's comment on PUI becoming "sloppy" overtime. IMV, he could either be referring to his stamina being drained or the actual effect of the technique decreasing over time. I HOPE it is not the former, we don't need to do that nonsense again. If it is the latter, then it could explain how he can get caught off guard with it.

I will say, when the arc was initiated back in January, I thought that it would mark a change in pace for Dragon Ball Super. If these issues are not resolved and more of them accumulate in the next couple of chapters, then I cannot be confident that it will change at all.
It seems to be both, sadly. Whis stated that the form drains stamina during their training, and Granolah said its accuracy decreased the longer he used it. I really hate the fact that every form needs some sort of drawback. Especially when this problem didn't even exist in the previous arc.
So I see. I guess that Toyotarou wants to convince the readers that Granola is just better than Perfect UI without him coming across as overpowered (but he wished to be overpowered, though?)
This post was brought to you by 魔族

User avatar
OrangeBanana
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:24 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:46 am

I love how toyotarou and toriyama are coming up with weaknesses for MUI which didn't exist before. the entire mechanic that his accuracy drops with fatigue level is a fine idea for balancing the technique (shit this is why Kaioken is so iconic partly due to its downsides) but this wasn't mentioned before. This is the primary issue with super for me, its fights have gotten more technical than DBZ but hot damn did that bring in a new bag of problems into the mix, every technique has some downside which conveniently gets mentioned and works in the most convenient moments. Before MUI we had CSSJB which was a mechanic to SSJB that came out of thin air and then its downsides were important for like a single fight and were never mentioned again.

DBZ did this too, but I think it did it in a more natural way that felt like it made sense. For example the stamina issue with SSJ3 was a key part in goku's second fight with buu, but we already had information that the form drains energy really quick. So when he uses it against kid buu the downside doesn't feel like it was made up on the spot like it does here.

User avatar
PurestEvil
Regular
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:02 am

OrangeBanana wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:46 am
I love how toyotarou and toriyama are coming up with weaknesses for MUI which didn't exist before. the entire mechanic that his accuracy drops with fatigue level is a fine idea for balancing the technique (shit this is why Kaioken is so iconic partly due to its downsides) but this wasn't mentioned before. This is the primary issue with super for me, its fights have gotten more technical than DBZ but hot damn did that bring in a new bag of problems into the mix, every technique has some downside which conveniently gets mentioned and works in the most convenient moments.
These are precisely my feelings right now. I would not mind PUI having a downside (although it's more like Goku's lack of mastery of PUI), but it really feels like it comes up without precedent.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:15 am

PurestEvil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:26 am
Moreover, I don't know what to make of Goku's comment on PUI becoming "sloppy" overtime. IMV, he could either be referring to his stamina being drained or the actual effect of the technique decreasing over time. I HOPE it is not the former, we don't need to do that nonsense again. If it is the latter, then it could explain how he can get caught off guard with it.
We knew from Whis that Ultra Instinct's unorthodox movements take a toll on the user's body. This happened during the tournament, which not only allowed Jiren to be able to progressively pressure Goku (while before he was being overwhelmed), but also prevented Goku from sustaining the transformation.

The latter problem was solved in the Moro arc after the training with Merus, when his body became better able to acclimatize the form and make it stable. But even so, at the beginning of this arc Whis still notes that forcing the use of UI through a transformation will always consume some level of stamina, just like any other form (and is reinforced in the same chapter that should be used as a last resort). So the stamina drain is nothing really new, the only new thing is the accuracy decreasing over time, which seems natural considering that Goku's energy is constantly being drained. I know this seems to be in contrast with the fight against Moro, but Goku was so laughably above him that I don't think it would make any difference.

And the whole "caught off guard" thing seems to me just people's interpretation during the leaks, since nothing in the chapter implies it (if anything, UI prevents this from even being possible, Granolah is just that strong)
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
BOEGVELD
Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:29 pm
Location: Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BOEGVELD » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:17 am

PurestEvil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:18 am
BOEGVELD wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:11 am
PurestEvil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:26 am
I agree that this new chapter has left a few peculiar holes in the story. I hope that Granola's discovery of his powers are elaborated, but I am not entirely confident Toyo will do that. Moreover, I don't know what to make of Goku's comment on PUI becoming "sloppy" overtime. IMV, he could either be referring to his stamina being drained or the actual effect of the technique decreasing over time. I HOPE it is not the former, we don't need to do that nonsense again. If it is the latter, then it could explain how he can get caught off guard with it.

I will say, when the arc was initiated back in January, I thought that it would mark a change in pace for Dragon Ball Super. If these issues are not resolved and more of them accumulate in the next couple of chapters, then I cannot be confident that it will change at all.
It seems to be both, sadly. Whis stated that the form drains stamina during their training, and Granolah said its accuracy decreased the longer he used it. I really hate the fact that every form needs some sort of drawback. Especially when this problem didn't even exist in the previous arc.
So I see. I guess that Toyotarou wants to convince the readers that Granola is just better than Perfect UI without him coming across as overpowered (but he wished to be overpowered, though?)
Overpowering a full power MUI Goku would've been a more convincing if that's their goal. I think they're afraid to make Goku too overpowered tbh.

User avatar
BOEGVELD
Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:29 pm
Location: Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BOEGVELD » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:24 am

Granolah's eye was a great way to counter UI because it could see everything and pinpoint vital spots. They just threw that option out and added a new weakness. I really don't understand the point of it. Now Goku'll probably try to overcome this weakness in this arc, just like he did in the two previous arcs. It's becoming pretty repetitive. I'd much rather see Goku learn new abilities to utilize in UI instead. Vegeta has been doing great the last few arcs.

User avatar
PurestEvil
Regular
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:28 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:15 am
PurestEvil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:26 am
Moreover, I don't know what to make of Goku's comment on PUI becoming "sloppy" overtime. IMV, he could either be referring to his stamina being drained or the actual effect of the technique decreasing over time. I HOPE it is not the former, we don't need to do that nonsense again. If it is the latter, then it could explain how he can get caught off guard with it.
We knew from Whis that Ultra Instinct's unorthodox movements take a toll on the user's body. This happened during the tournament, which not only allowed Jiren to be able to progressively pressure Goku (while before he was being overwhelmed), but also prevented Goku from sustaining the transformation.

The latter problem was solved in the Moro arc after the training with Merus, when his body became better able to acclimatize the form and make it stable. But even so, at the beginning of this arc Whis still notes that forcing the use of UI through a transformation will always consume some level of stamina, just like any other form (and is reinforced in the same chapter that should be used as a last resort). So the stamina drain is nothing really new, the only new thing is the accuracy decreasing over time, which seems natural considering that Goku's energy is constantly being drained. I know this seems to be in contrast with the fight against Moro, but Goku was so laughably above him that I don't think it would make any difference.

And the whole "caught off guard" thing seems to me just people's interpretation during the leaks, since nothing in the chapter implies it (if anything, UI prevents this from even being possible, Granolah is just that strong)
Thanks for the explanation and insight.
I still think it is very weird that Goku would find a technique more powerful than his stamina-draining blue form, but said technique would also result in him losing stamina. It's a tad repetitive, don't you think?
This post was brought to you by 魔族

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:07 pm

PurestEvil wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:28 am
Thanks for the explanation and insight.
I still think it is very weird that Goku would find a technique more powerful than his stamina-draining blue form, but said technique would also result in him losing stamina. It's a tad repetitive, don't you think?
There's definitely the feeling of "I've seen this before", I agree, especially when both Blue and Sign had similar weaknesses (although the Perfected UI isn't too bad in comparison). It's just that when it comes to stamina drain / potential risks to the body, the story has already established this precedent
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:38 pm

Goku might also be on a higher level of UI than he was in the previous arc, he can use it now in every other form, so maybe that's why the draining issue is back.

If he was untrained and at UI LVL 0,5 during the ToP(drain), he was at a trained UI LVL 1 vs Moro(no drain), and is now at an untrained LVL 1,5 then the drain wouldn't sound as repetitive. Well, it does, but it wouldn't sound as lazy. This, based on the whole UI ladder Whis mentioned.

Kinokima
I Live Here
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:29 pm

Goku is only going to get better at UI as the story moves on but that creates a problem because they will need to create antagonists that can counter UI even as Goku gets better and better at it

I think they need to stop selling stuff as the most optimal and unbeatable form. UI sounded amazing on paper but it really can’t be if they want the story to continue.

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 912
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:19 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:29 pm
Goku is only going to get better at UI as the story moves on but that creates a problem because they will need to create antagonists that can counter UI even as Goku gets better and better at it

I think they need to stop selling stuff as the most optimal and unbeatable form. UI sounded amazing on paper but it really can’t be if they want the story to continue.
Welcome to the idea of power creep.

I just found it funny you basically just described the concept of power creep like it’s a new phenomenon. No offense intended.
Last edited by TKA on Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

User avatar
LightBing
I Live Here
Posts: 3606
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:47 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:22 pm

Jiren hold off Goku in UI, power still trumps all. This isn't about giving Goku weaknesses, it's about giving the character something to strive for.

The story wants to slowdown progress instead of jumping to UI 2, 3 etc... Which I agree with, the problem is the blatant lack of planning.
All the new information is a surprise because for the 2/3 arcs UI has been present nothing has been hint at.

We just have to deal with these growing pains, unless people prefer UI 2 to pop up this arc.

Post Reply