"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Peach » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:20 pm

Wow. So Goku can shift the position of his vital organs all of a sudden.

I'm sorry. I think that's stupid as hell. Only Buu should be able to do that..

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:27 pm

Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:20 pm
Wow. So Goku can shift the position of his vital organs all of a sudden.

I'm sorry. I think that's stupid as hell. Only Buu should be able to do that..
Where does it imply that Goku is moving his organs? He's just avoiding vital hits. It seems like he's combining the hardening from the Moro arc with what he did with Sign in the ToP:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Peach » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:39 pm

batistabus wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:27 pm
Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:20 pm
Wow. So Goku can shift the position of his vital organs all of a sudden.

I'm sorry. I think that's stupid as hell. Only Buu should be able to do that..
Where does it imply that Goku is moving his organs? He's just avoiding vital hits. It seems like he's combining the hardening from the Moro arc with what he did with Sign in the ToP:
What hardening?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:42 pm

Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:39 pm

What hardening?
When Moro tried to attack Goku after the senzu and ended up breaking his arm because Goku's muscles braced on instinct.

Granted I'm not sure why Goku now needs to think of the strategy first to invoke something like that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:49 pm

Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:39 pm
batistabus wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:27 pm
Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:20 pm
Wow. So Goku can shift the position of his vital organs all of a sudden.

I'm sorry. I think that's stupid as hell. Only Buu should be able to do that..
Where does it imply that Goku is moving his organs? He's just avoiding vital hits. It seems like he's combining the hardening from the Moro arc with what he did with Sign in the ToP:
What hardening?
Based on what Goku says, I say it's probably more the other thing than this, but his body twitches in a similar way before the hit lands. Either way, he doesn't say he's moving his organs within his body. He says "At least I can shift enough to make sure you don't hit where it really hurts".

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Peach » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:55 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:42 pm
Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:39 pm

What hardening?
When Moro tried to attack Goku after the senzu and ended up breaking his arm because Goku's muscles braced on instinct.

Granted I'm not sure why Goku now needs to think of the strategy first to invoke something like that.
i didn't really see that as Goku getting hard. There was a moment where a civilian punched Gohan before Goku came to visit on his day pass and remarked that his body felt like steel. I assumed it was something like that with Goku.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:03 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:52 pm
Bardock doesn't need to be integral to the plot itself for his personality and actions to have the importance in Goku's journey to be emphasised.
Don't believe I ever contended otherwise, but the argument that something wholly outside of the Saiyan arc's storytelling makes that arc's themes "work", makes them "relevant" or makes them "poignant" is absurd on its face. No, the arc itself fulfilled those things. External stories and arcs may enhance or recontextualize them, but that's not what you said. In any case, I won't belabor that point.

You don't need to tell me about the dramatic irony the special was going for. I'm aware. If it resonates with you, I'm happy for you.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:52 pm
You're badly misremembering what was stated in the TV special.
Nuh-uh. When I mentioned there were at least three lines of dialogue ("Bardock is as surprising as ever. It’s only taken him several days to fully recover.", "He’s quite a guy.", and "By now, his battle power should be pretty close to 10,000.") I meant it -- the whole premise of that exchange pertains to Bardock's above average capabilities as a Saiyan. Zenkai or no zenkai, that's not something that can be exploited by any old Saiyan to the degree that Bardock somehow managed, not to mention the no-names were explicitly making reference to how impressive Bardock is as a fighter; whether that's in respect to his resilience or his strength.

There's no real handwaving the fact that the TV special makes him out to be physically extraordinary whereas Toriyama's material simply doesn't. I just find it funny that you mention "watering down" whilst the former more blatantly and directly waters down Goku's iconic line to Vegeta than the latter ever could. Goku inherits nothing spectacular from his father in Minus, but the TV special does entertain the possibility.

Besides, Minus has been around for over seven years, my dude. It's safe to say that Toyotaro isn't using Toei's now-retconned ship that sailed away a long time ago.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:24 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:19 pm
Why mustn't we? Bardock killed a lot of people, so it is only natural it would reverberate onto his son eventually. Well, the only thing "reverberating" now is the exact opposite of that, but still... Bardock's actions must have some effect on Goku, for better or worse. You can't not have that.
Because there's alive characters who might participate in the plot to explore. Bardock has no benefit now or in the future, he's done.

Goku shouldn't care about Bardock at all because he doesn't even know who he is. Finding out based on Goku's personality shouldn't bring any reaction too. There's nothing more to it than fan-service.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nhienphan2808 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:35 pm

About the Goku and his "nice" parents thing, i think we overlooked the headbump Goku is nice and good because he hit his head. Before that he's a violent, wild child. So it's not "Goku is nice because of Bardock and Gine", it's actually the opposite and i find myself liking it : "despite his parents being nicer, he was STILL going to be a violent brutal Saiyan if he didnt hit his head".
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:23 am

I wanna bring back this speculation and highlight something in particular...
batistabus wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:47 pm
We still don't know about Gas' bad memories from Cereal all those years ago, but I think there's a chance it'll be Bardock-related. I suspected that Bardock's Oozaru cameo in the beginning of the arc was just a nod to fans, but while Granolla couldn't recognize Goku as similar to Bardock, Gas actually might. The Heata spy devices seem to be transmitting audio, but not video, so Goku's appearance could still be a surprise to Gas.

On that note, if Granolla has memories of Bardock busting through the roof, how is he alive? Bardock has a soft-spot, so maybe he was spared. Maybe Monaito saved him somehow. Or maybe it relates to Oatmil...

Or maybe it'll never come up again.
LightBing wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:24 pm
There's nothing more to it than fan-service.
That doesn't mean it'll be bad. The Future Trunks arc and Broly film exist because those were popular characters. Broly is a good comparison since he was a blank slate in Toriyama's story, and while I hated the concept, I loved the end result. We got a glimpse of Bardock in Broly, but we don't know the direction this story will take him.

Some people compare this to Heroes, but if this was Heroes, Bardock would've already appeared in the flesh and joined the flight along with some movie villain.
batistabus wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:18 pm
Mr Baggins wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:11 pm
I also have my own issues with Minus, particularly in how it retcons the irony of Goku being sent to destroy all life on the planet, but that's neither here nor there.
I mean...it wasn't part of Freeza's scheme, but that was probably still a part of the equation. If Goku didn't hit his head and get raised by Gohan, the Oozaru would've definitely made a mess of things.
Actually...Bardock tells Goku not to stare at the moon before sending him off. But I mean...come on.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:15 am

Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:20 pm
Wow. So Goku can shift the position of his vital organs all of a sudden.

I'm sorry. I think that's stupid as hell. Only Buu should be able to do that..
Goku didn’t shift his organs, he shifted his whole trunk a few millimeters to the left.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:30 am

Mr Baggins wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:03 pm
Nuh-uh. When I mentioned there were at least three lines of dialogue ("Bardock is as surprising as ever. It’s only taken him several days to fully recover.", "He’s quite a guy.", and "By now, his battle power should be pretty close to 10,000.") I meant it -- the whole premise of that exchange pertains to Bardock's above average capabilities as a Saiyan. Zenkai or no zenkai, that's not something that can be exploited by any old Saiyan to the degree that Bardock somehow managed, not to mention the no-names were explicitly making reference to how impressive Bardock is as a fighter; whether that's in respect to his resilience or his strength.

There's no real handwaving the fact that the TV special makes him out to be physically extraordinary whereas Toriyama's material simply doesn't. I just find it funny that you mention "watering down" whilst the former more blatantly and directly waters down Goku's iconic line to Vegeta than the latter ever could. Goku inherits nothing spectacular from his father in Minus, but the TV special does entertain the possibility.

Besides, Minus has been around for over seven years, my dude. It's safe to say that Toyotaro isn't using Toei's now-retconned ship that sailed away a long time ago.
Those comments hardly single out as a Bardock unique individual especially when those comments referring to this comment made about Bardock: "Yeah. He may be a lower class warrior, but every time he goes off to clear some land, he always manages to nearly get killed before returning."

This establishes that Bardock is still seen as a low-class warrior and he nearly dies every time he has to clear out a planet. Hardly anything remarkable about that. The only thing that is surprising about Bardock is that is he can recover from nearly dying in few days, which doesn't mean anything when it's not highlighted how long it usually takes for a Saiyan to recover from severe injury. This has nothing to with his strength. Which even if you take the 10,000 BP comment into account means jack shit because there is nothing aptly compared to it in the story to make it seem like a big deal. He's still seen as a low-class warrior by several characters. Bardock is not special in the TV special in the slightest. He's explicitly stated to be a low-class nobody whore who barely survives his missions.

If Toriyama wants to uses the story elements Minus, he's free to do so. I'm just going to point out how much whitewashing Bardock's character has such a negative ripple effect on Goku's story and development and some of the themes in the manga. Because it most certainly does have a negative impact on how you view the story.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:39 am

Jack Bz wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:38 pm
If that summary is true I'll print out every post of mine and eat it
Have you finished Printing Yet? :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:29 am

So my predictions are that Monaito hired the Saiyans and is now taking care of Granolla to atone for his sins and that Granolla will leave the planet to go after Freeza after next chapter's revelations and that's when the Heaters will attack. Because Goku and Vegeta are so weakened, they will be easily defeated.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:43 am

Yuji wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:29 am
So my predictions are that Monaito hired the Saiyans and is now taking care of Granolla to atone for his sins and that Granolla will leave the planet to go after Freeza after next chapter's revelations and that's when the Heaters will attack. Because Goku and Vegeta are so weakened, they will be easily defeated.
Weren’t the Heeters the ones who supported the saiyan attack on Cereal?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:00 am

Check my sig to see my thoughts on the differences between Toei's Bardock and Toriyama's.

But a point I didn't make: Toei gave Bardock futuresight to make him stand out even further. Like, how is this a discussion that he's very special? The tv special shat on its premise in the first 20 minutes.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:23 am

Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:20 pm
Wow. So Goku can shift the position of his vital organs all of a sudden.

I'm sorry. I think that's stupid as hell. Only Buu should be able to do that..
😂 No, he's not shifting his organs around. 😂 He learned to notice when Granolah is about to target a vital point and moves slightly just before he gets hit so it misses the point. Granolah is fast af and not every attack is meant to target a vital point, that's why it's an impressive feat, but he's not squishing around his organs.

Imagining Goku with ultra instinct intestine and liver moving out of the way from attacks made me laugh pretty hard 🤣🤣

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:40 am

batistabus wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:23 am
That doesn't mean it'll be bad. The Future Trunks arc and Broly film exist because those were popular characters. Broly is a good comparison since he was a blank slate in Toriyama's story, and while I hated the concept, I loved the end result. We got a glimpse of Bardock in Broly, but we don't know the direction this story will take him.

Some people compare this to Heroes, but if this was Heroes, Bardock would've already appeared in the flesh and joined the flight along with some movie villain.
It'll probably be rather inoffensive but that isn't my concern.

It's having a bunch of characters on Earth with so much to tell and possible contributions in the future and instead of them we retread old characters who aren't important at all like Broly and Bardock or who had their storyline closed like Mirai Trunks.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:53 am

Peach wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:20 pm
Wow. So Goku can shift the position of his vital organs all of a sudden.

I'm sorry. I think that's stupid as hell. Only Buu should be able to do that..
Where does it say he’s shifting his vital organs?

He’s just shifting his body so that Granolah’s slightly off-target. He isn’t fast enough to dodge fully, but is fast enough (while using Blue UI) to make sure Granolah can’t hit exactly the right spot.

Anywho, that out of the way, this might be my favorite chapter of Super—or tied with #41. It shouldn’t be left unsaid that it has unusually great character-acting for the series the whole way through. You really feel how shredded everyone is physically and emotionally.

The action is fun, there’s some genuinely affecting pathos for both Granolah (this flashback, and his mannerisms and self-loathing afterward, so much more to sell why he’s so set on revenge than the previous—running to your mother as your entire species is killed off is traumatic) and Vegeta, and I love the unexpected ending to the fight, petering our with Vegeta and Granolah being so guilt-ridden and exhausted that they’re both ready to die, stopped only by a surprise cliffhanger from Monaito.

On said cliffhanger, that it genuinely works as one and has me wanting to see what it leads to is just icing on a chapter I think is great for basically every other reason. I’m not engaged specifically because it’s Bardock (though that it’s Goku’s birth father, sure), but I’m not put off by that either. Ignore the inundation through ancillary media, or any hangups on this Bardock stemming from the TV special one, and the character as we know him from his two panels in DB, “Minus” and Broly is still mostly a blank slate and ripe for using for hooks like this. It’s obvious there’s more to the story too.

But I really want to stress that reducing reactions to the chapter to its cliffhanger alone are selling the very, very good DBS that the prior 39+ pages are.
Last edited by Cipher on Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:07 am

In the chop to the neck, he basically tightened or shrugged his neck so the attack would not be "fatal". In the hit to his stomach, he either flexed or slightly twisted his torso to receive the blow in a non-vital area.
Tension can also be a problem in some martial arts, so maybe he is doing the opposite, relaxing in a way that renders the attack uneffective.

There's no Migatte no Gokui Liver, lol.

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