"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:48 am

Darn, finally! The fight has ended... I wonder what comes next. Though the Bardock plot twist caught me off-guard, as I am still used to savage and clairvoyant Bardock from the Z days anime.
I wonder if they have it figured out... rematch with Freeza that ends up with him in hell again doesn't really work anymore and I believe that a fight with the Heeters, whoever will be their champion as everyone thinks Gas has some hidden power, will be utterly boring without some world expanding and proper agenda.
I would love to get some Zamasu type of villain, who has something going on for some reason and something more than just heroes fighting for their own lives and power struggling. Hope is up!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:09 am

So... okay, overall, awesome chapter, I'm really excited to see where they take the story after this, but, um... after thinking about this for more than a minute...

I thought Goku learning to adapt to Granolah's fighting style was really neat at first, but then... I realized how really dumb and invalidating of his Ultra Instinct forms it actually is.

He is tired, injured, and in a weaker, slower form this chapter and yet he's watching, anticipating, and consciously dodging Granola's incredibly precise, incredibly powerful, incredibly fast attacks that are, in fact, SO FAST that Ultra Instinct Blue was caught off-guard by them and could neither see their tells nor instinctively react to them, which is literally the entire reason Ultra Instinct is so powerful to begin with??? And now he's able to combine it with SSB?

Like... now he's taking the time to actively watch and think to tell his body to see and the dodge these attacks that his form that has autonomous bodily movement independent of thought--which is why it is intended to be inherently faster than any other form--could not dodge???

Make it make sense!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:14 am

It appears we are reaching the end of the first act. My Prediction is that hearing of Bardock from Monaito will do two things. For Granolah he won't want to accept it and he's still try to fight, but he'll be so full of doubt it hinders his power like Beerus was telling Vegeta his doubt hindered his power.

Speaking of Vegeta, In this fight Vegeta has been fighting with the Sins of Planet Vegeta on his back. Granolah is a living embodiment that Beerus was wrong. The Saiyans were fated to die. Even if Frieza didn't kill them all those years ago, Granolah still would have found the second dragon ball, wished to be the strongest, and killed the Saiyans anyway. This is the Saiyans Fate.

But, hearing the story of Bardock. A Nice Saiyan who changed the fate of Kakarot and Inadvertently changed Vegeta's fate. It will prove that Beerus was right. Bardock shows that a single Saiyan can change fate. The Saiyans died because of their choices. And thats not the man Vegeta is anymore. With this new found conviction he will tap into Ultra Ego one last time and finally knock some sense into Granolah.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:22 pm

If Toriyama and Toyotarou have such an increasing interest in Goku's family, then they really should do something more with Raditz instead. It made thematic sense for Goku to have been the odd one out in the original story, but with recent revelations, it looks like Raditz is the one who didn't quite fit with his family. P

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:28 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:09 am


Make it make sense!
They do? The point of these couple of arcs is pushing back on the idea that "new form = being strongest." So its Goku using his fighting abilities that he's spent decades training and improving to compensate for his own weakness.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:31 pm

LightBing wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:24 pm
Grimlock wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:19 pm
Why mustn't we? Bardock killed a lot of people, so it is only natural it would reverberate onto his son eventually. Well, the only thing "reverberating" now is the exact opposite of that, but still... Bardock's actions must have some effect on Goku, for better or worse. You can't not have that.
Because there's alive characters who might participate in the plot to explore. Bardock has no benefit now or in the future, he's done.

Goku shouldn't care about Bardock at all because he doesn't even know who he is. Finding out based on Goku's personality shouldn't bring any reaction too. There's nothing more to it than fan-service.
That's not fan service. If a character is being involved in the main plot, that is the exact opposite. Considering that Granolah is connected to the Saiyans past, it absolutely makes sense for characters from that period to make a reappearance. I don't care for what they're doing to Bardock, but it's definitely not fanservice.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:47 pm

LightBing wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:24 pm
Because there's alive characters who might participate in the plot to explore. Bardock has no benefit now or in the future, he's done.
Being alive or not is irrelevant, everyone has potential to contribute to something. And yes, Bardock has the benefit to add another layer to Goku's character and possibly whatever other stories they want to tell that involves him.
LightBing wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:24 pm
Goku shouldn't care about Bardock at all because he doesn't even know who he is. Finding out based on Goku's personality shouldn't bring any reaction too. There's nothing more to it than fan-service.
Then tell Goku who his father is, it's that simple. Whis can project scenes from the past, get him to do that.

People still complaining about "fanservice" even after everything Dragon Ball Super did, "fanservice" is the middle name of this series (and of modern Dragon Ball), so why bother labeling something "fanservice"? You're not making any strong argument at all by saying that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:02 pm

Very nice chapter overall, nice to see Granolah finally getting exhausted. It goes to show that Goku and Vegeta actually could have won from the beginning if they fought together.

Am curious about Bardock's role, hoping his characterisation stays true: he's an average saiyan in most things, but somehow different in the head, since he can constitute a family and emotional ties, something usually exclusive to the elite class and the royal family.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:08 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:02 pm
he's an average saiyan in most things.
But a brilliant scientist!


Anyway, Toriyama said that Bardock was "in the upper ranks as far as a low-class can go", so he most likely is one of, if not the strongest low-class Saiyan out there (which would make him the thirteenth strongest Saiyan overall, to be specific), that doesn't sound like "an average grunt" to me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:12 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:09 am
So... okay, overall, awesome chapter, I'm really excited to see where they take the story after this, but, um... after thinking about this for more than a minute...

I thought Goku learning to adapt to Granolah's fighting style was really neat at first, but then... I realized how really dumb and invalidating of his Ultra Instinct forms it actually is.

He is tired, injured, and in a weaker, slower form this chapter and yet he's watching, anticipating, and consciously dodging Granola's incredibly precise, incredibly powerful, incredibly fast attacks that are, in fact, SO FAST that Ultra Instinct Blue was caught off-guard by them and could neither see their tells nor instinctively react to them, which is literally the entire reason Ultra Instinct is so powerful to begin with??? And now he's able to combine it with SSB?

Like... now he's taking the time to actively watch and think to tell his body to see and the dodge these attacks that his form that has autonomous bodily movement independent of thought--which is why it is intended to be inherently faster than any other form--could not dodge???

Make it make sense!
It's different this time. Earlier Goku tried to just dodge Granolah in Super Saiyan forms with UI. This time, a fatigued Blue Goku is using UI to shift his internal vitals to lessen the damage. Since Goku himself even stated he can't dodge the vital attacks. This is against a Granolah, who was reaching his limit too. From fighting both Saiyans and unlocking his new power. So it makes sense.

BTW, in the initial fight, Goku even stated that he needs more training with UI combined with his SS forms. Which is another reason why Granolah was tagging him with his vital shot. Which doesn't make the UI forms useless. So Goku ingeniously took a different approach.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:35 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:08 pm
Thani wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:02 pm
he's an average saiyan in most things.
But a brilliant scientist!


Anyway, Toriyama said that Bardock was "in the upper ranks as far as a low-class can go", so he most likely is one of, if not the strongest low-class Saiyan out there (which would make him the thirteenth strongest Saiyan overall, to be specific), that doesn't sound like "an average grunt" to me.
Hahaha! But to be fair, I always assumed there were many middle and elite class saiyans out there. For example, all of King Vegeta's inner circle (Paragus included) I pretty much saw as elite saiyans. Broly obviously was elite, given his power and father.

Anyway, the saiyans had an entire planet, I can't see such a huge lack of middle and elite saiyans that Bardock was one of the strongest periods. But that's just me, the canon itself never bothered to explain and show more of the saiyans.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:42 pm

It will be very interesting to see what they have in store for Bardock. I would love it if the next chapter is entirely set in the past, as we follow Cereal’s genocide from Bardock’s point of view.

I just have two wishes regarding Bardock: first, that his bastard side is shown. We know from Minus’ manga and from Broly that he too participated in the genocides, so him suddenly being retconned into being good would probably be something I would hate.
And second, please keep him weak as fuck. Do not make him suddenly amongst the strongest Saiyans on Cereal.

Very curious about what his motives were, though.
I am definitely looking forward to the next chapter.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:46 pm

Well, Bardock is canonically amongst the strongest low-class saiyan warriors. So really, he's only getting overshadowed if there were middle or elite class saiyans on Cereal. That's still "weak as fuck" for the universe standards, but he is a big deal among the saiyan cannon fodders of the low class.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:43 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:31 pm
That's not fan service. If a character is being involved in the main plot, that is the exact opposite. Considering that Granolah is connected to the Saiyans past, it absolutely makes sense for characters from that period to make a reappearance. I don't care for what they're doing to Bardock, but it's definitely not fanservice.
The character was forced into the plot. He doesn't serve the story because Toyotarõ could have easily written this differently. It's fan service because it's a contrived way to make the character relevant again.
Grimlock wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:47 pm
Being alive or not is irrelevant, everyone has potential to contribute to something. And yes, Bardock has the benefit to add another layer to Goku's character and possibly whatever other stories they want to tell that involves him.
Sure, the writers can do everything they want doesn't mean the contribution is sincere and worth it.

If Goku is told about his father, what's his reaction beyond "Guess my dad was one of the good ones, isn't that something Vegeta!". What kind of reflection is there to be had?
Goku facing his Saiyan heritage has been told, adding his father to the mix shouldn't change anything based on Goku's personality.

To give an example of fan-service:
- In the Android arc, Toriyama "revived" Freeza to hype up Trunks and the Androids. This wasn't fan-service it was the typical storytelling device.
- In FnF, Toriyama revived Freeza with no relevance at all for the plot. This was fan-service.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:08 pm

A couple of suggestions on the subject of Goku and vitals:
  • I got the impression that this encounter was simply a sign that Goku has progressed in Ultra Instinct since the earlier fight with Granolah. His use of it with SSjB - the most accurate way of using it, without just using the Divine Power transformation - wasn't refined enough to counter Granolah's vital strikes initially (and as a consequence, he said his training was lacking), but this time around, he's moved deeper into Ultra Instinct such that he's basically doing what he did against Jiren when he used Omen in Chapter 41. So I figure his accuracy with Ultra Instinct is now at this level, even at a transformation that's not dedicated to Ultra Instinct?
  • Is it possible that the 'vitals' being referred to here are actually Qi Meridians rather than organs, as such? Looking at the handy-dandy diagram on the Wiki page, it seems as though each of the places Granolah has landed pinpoint strikes on his foes correspond with striking points in the Qi/Ki 'network'. It's perhaps interesting to note that each time Granolah has landed a successful strike, he's dumped his opponents out of their transformations even before they realise what's happened, so maybe there's more of a ki aspect to it than just the basic interrelation of the body and ki. Perhaps this explains how such small shifts in movement on Goku's part make so much of a difference?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:24 pm

I don't get the confusion. Its legit the same as when he figured out how to deal wit Hits Timeskip overtime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:25 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:46 pm
Well, Bardock is canonically amongst the strongest low-class saiyan warriors.
Toriyama also mentioned that his (Minus) version of Bardock isn't strong enough to be promoted to mid-class. As long as the story makes it clear that he's still low-class, I'm okay with that.

I want zero references/callbacks to Toei's Bardock. 10,000 BP is completely unacceptable and already far overshadows most elite Saiyans.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:01 pm

Mr Baggins wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:25 pm
Thani wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:46 pm
Well, Bardock is canonically amongst the strongest low-class saiyan warriors.
Toriyama also mentioned that his (Minus) version of Bardock isn't strong enough to be promoted to mid-class. As long as the story makes it clear that he's still low-class, I'm okay with that.

I want zero references/callbacks to Toei's Bardock. 10,000 BP is completely unacceptable and already far overshadows most elite Saiyans.
Yes, that much is true. At best, Bardock should be able to give a middle-class warrior a decent fight.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MajinMan » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:05 pm

Not sure how I feel about this chapter. The fight was OK and Goku trying out different things to combat Granolah was pretty cool. Vegeta admitting he was being an asshole only to master the Ultra Ego power was good and makes things make more sense. The Bardock reveal is the most conflicting part to me. I don’t like Minus Bardock that much, and them including him as a part of a main storyline probably won’t sit well with me. I guess it depends on how and why Bardock saved them, but I’m still not a fan of how different he is compared to other saiyans.

I feel like we’re finally going to move onto what the Heeters are going to do and maybe a bit of Freeza action, so that’s something to look forward to.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:45 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:08 pm
[*] Is it possible that the 'vitals' being referred to here are actually Qi Meridians rather than organs, as such? Looking at the handy-dandy diagram on the Wiki page, it seems as though each of the places Granolah has landed pinpoint strikes on his foes correspond with striking points in the Qi/Ki 'network'. It's perhaps interesting to note that each time Granolah has landed a successful strike, he's dumped his opponents out of their transformations even before they realise what's happened, so maybe there's more of a ki aspect to it than just the basic interrelation of the body and ki. Perhaps this explains how such small shifts in movement on Goku's part make so much of a difference?[/list]
The word used in Japanese is 急所 (kyuusho), which is “weak point/critical point,” so yes, the implication is very much that Granolah’s strikes are akin to acupuncture—he’s going for pressure points. Hence their stopping power, but also hence the smallest movement throwing before he finishes his strike sending him off-target.

And hence my confusion when I saw people talking about shifting internal organs.

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