"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:59 pm

emperior wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:42 pm
It will be very interesting to see what they have in store for Bardock. I would love it if the next chapter is entirely set in the past, as we follow Cereal’s genocide from Bardock’s point of view.

I just have two wishes regarding Bardock: first, that his bastard side is shown. We know from Minus’ manga and from Broly that he too participated in the genocides, so him suddenly being retconned into being good would probably be something I would hate.
And second, please keep him weak as fuck. Do not make him suddenly amongst the strongest Saiyans on Cereal.

Very curious about what his motives were, though.
I am definitely looking forward to the next chapter.
I would also like for his bastard side to show a bit if we see more of him (especially given that he is already misunderstood/distorted), but as you said, they already showed him participating in genocide in Minus; so while it would be a missed opportunity and would reinforce this perception of him, it wouldn't suddenly "retcon" him a into being good.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:32 pm

If Vegeta says he'd rather die than fight alongside Goku

Is Vegeta not a grown man? Can he not make his own decisions? If he says that and is willing to attack Goku and lash out because he wants to fight alone then Goku needs to respect his decision and not keep saving him after taking his abuse.

If Vegeta is going to call Granolah inexperienced, then after his abusive tirade, take his eyes off his opponent for extended periods, then what happens next is on him.

Stop babying him. Stop coddling him and protecting him from the consequences of his own decisions so that he never grows.

If Vegeta wants to die despite his wife and kid and new baby at home then let him. If he thinks his baby doesn't need a father and wants to die because some dude he just met thinks he should, or for Pride, then he's a grown man and thats his choice. He's willing to be abusive to defend his choices.

So stop helping him when your help is not wanted. Goku said he'd let Vegeta fight his own fights , so let him do it.

He's not Goku's baby, not his child, not his husband, not his boyfriend, not his best friend. If he's half the experienced fighter and genius progidy he claims to be, then let him prove it.

After all, that's what Vegeta wants.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:24 pm

TBMx wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:32 pm
and wants to die because some dude he just met thinks he should, or for Pride, then he's a grown man and thats his choice. He's willing to be abusive to defend his choices.
It's not because of that tho? Vegeta stated to Beerus at the beginning of the arc that he also thought the Saiyans were destined to die

Image

This was one of the ideas Vegeta needed to let go of during the training, but Granolah constantly challenged him with that notion again in the fight (and especially in this chapter, as that was the theme). And as much as Vegeta tried to say or show otherwise, he admits in the end that he wasn't able to do that due to his guilt. Not only him, but Granolah was also so attached to his revenge that he was willing to die for it (just like Vegeta himself ''accepted'' that this was his fate).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:38 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:24 pm
TBMx wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:32 pm
and wants to die because some dude he just met thinks he should, or for Pride, then he's a grown man and thats his choice. He's willing to be abusive to defend his choices.
It's not because of that tho? Vegeta stated to Beerus at the beginning of the arc that he also thought the Saiyans were destined to die

Image

This was one of the ideas Vegeta needed to let go of during the training, but Granolah constantly challenged him with that notion again in the fight (and especially in this chapter, as that was the theme). And as much as Vegeta tried to say or show otherwise, he admits in the end that he wasn't able to do that due to his guilt. Not only him, but Granolah was also so attached to his revenge that he was willing to die for it (just like Vegeta himself ''accepted'' that this was his fate).
Whatever his reason. I'm annoyed by Goku interfering in Vegeta's stupid decisions. If Vegeta kicks and hits Goku into rocks because he's so determined to do it his own way, and if he wants to die then he's a grown man, let him. In dbz, when Vegeta made a - what I would call foolish - decision, the story never shied away from him paying for it with his life. From there he finally learned. At the moment its like Vegetas stumbling on the edge of a cliff and Goku reaches out to hold him to stop him from falling, and as he's doing this Vegeta's hitting Goku in the nuts. Like dude just let him go.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:07 am

Vegeta killed possibly trillions of intelligent lifeform with families, ties, etc. Remember he was in his thirties when he attacked earth and began genocide when he was about 10 years old.
I think it's good that they are addressing it in such a non-angsty way; he is not suicidal, he protect his family but he still acknowledge that doesn't excuse him from being accountable to his past deed.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 am

TBMx wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:38 pm
Whatever his reason. I'm annoyed by Goku interfering in Vegeta's stupid decisions. If Vegeta kicks and hits Goku into rocks because he's so determined to do it his own way, and if he wants to die then he's a grown man, let him. In dbz, when Vegeta made a - what I would call foolish - decision, the story never shied away from him paying for it with his life. From there he finally learned. At the moment its like Vegetas stumbling on the edge of a cliff and Goku reaches out to hold him to stop him from falling, and as he's doing this Vegeta's hitting Goku in the nuts. Like dude just let him go.
Goku interferes because he does not have such a mean spirited mindset and actually cares about his friend's life.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:15 am

Uh, guys... You don't think... Bardock might be Granola's father? No, surely not... Nooo...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:06 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:15 am
Uh, guys... You don't think... Bardock might be Granola's father? No, surely not... Nooo...
I don’t think so. Why would the Saiyans arrive at a planet one time without destroying it and come back to wreak havoc years later?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 am

TBMx wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:32 pm
He's not Goku's baby, not his child, not his husband, not his boyfriend, not his best friend. If he's half the experienced fighter and genius progidy he claims to be, then let him prove it.
He is Goku’s best friend. What even is this?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Trouser » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:18 am

Cipher wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 am
He is Goku’s best friend. What even is this?
Isn't Kuririn his best friend?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:19 am

Trouser wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:18 am
Isn't Kuririn his best friend?
He used to be, but they hardly see each other now and he and Vegeta spend basically all of their free time together.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:58 am

PurestEvil wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 am
TBMx wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:38 pm
Whatever his reason. I'm annoyed by Goku interfering in Vegeta's stupid decisions. If Vegeta kicks and hits Goku into rocks because he's so determined to do it his own way, and if he wants to die then he's a grown man, let him. In dbz, when Vegeta made a - what I would call foolish - decision, the story never shied away from him paying for it with his life. From there he finally learned. At the moment its like Vegetas stumbling on the edge of a cliff and Goku reaches out to hold him to stop him from falling, and as he's doing this Vegeta's hitting Goku in the nuts. Like dude just let him go.
Goku interferes because he does not have such a mean spirited mindset and actually cares about his friend's life.
I see no reason why Goku should care about Vegeta's life more than Vegeta himself.. Vegeta's 50 years old now. Goku said he would let Vegeta do it so let him fight. If Goku's going to interfere anytime Vegeta looks to be losing then he might as well ignore Vegeta's request and fight with him regardless of if he wants to or not because thats what he's doing. If Goku can't accept that the possibility of death in these fights exists then he has no business being there. Everytime he interferes he insults Vegeta. He's saying everytime that Vegeta lacks the talent to get himself out of bad situations in battle. He's saying he doesn't trust Vegeta's tactical judgement. If he wants help let him ask for it.

It's extremely annoying to hear Vegeta's bragging about how he's a genius and a special warrior only for him to suck in battle, for him to not realize he sucks, and lash out at Goku helping him and for Goku to keep helping him and for Vegeta to keep lashing out and never learning to fend for himself or realize he can't. Because everytime he comes close to truly failing in battle and realizing he's not nearly as good as he thinks he is and isn't fit to fight alone, here comes Goku to bail him out, to which Vegeta angrily hits him and goes back to saying I had that!! Really? Let see it then. For once I want to see Goku call this asshole's bluff.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:00 am

Trouser wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:18 am
Cipher wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 am
He is Goku’s best friend. What even is this?
Isn't Kuririn his best friend?
Krillin is in fact Goku's best friend. That's especially clear after this chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:19 am

Krillin being Goku’s best friend shouldn’t be up to debate.

Goku surely sees Vegeta as his friend, yeah, but he’s more his sparring partner than best friend. I don’t think Goku would be as upset to see Vegeta being killed as he was when Krillin was.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:43 am

The best friend thing being just one person is for children, adults can have more than just one best friend, I know I have.

In Goku's case, he's spent the last 4 years(7 if we count those 3 years in the ROSAT) doing pretty much everything with Vegeta, he's his closest friend at the moment. I see no issue with him trying to save his friend, even when Geets is willing to die. That's what friends do. Also, I guess he's being selfish, he wants to fight Ultra Lego too.

This is the first time I see somebody complaining about trying to save a friend's life, lol. Usually is "I can't belive they let them die".

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:49 am

TBMx wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:58 am
PurestEvil wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 am
TBMx wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:38 pm
Whatever his reason. I'm annoyed by Goku interfering in Vegeta's stupid decisions. If Vegeta kicks and hits Goku into rocks because he's so determined to do it his own way, and if he wants to die then he's a grown man, let him. In dbz, when Vegeta made a - what I would call foolish - decision, the story never shied away from him paying for it with his life. From there he finally learned. At the moment its like Vegetas stumbling on the edge of a cliff and Goku reaches out to hold him to stop him from falling, and as he's doing this Vegeta's hitting Goku in the nuts. Like dude just let him go.
Goku interferes because he does not have such a mean spirited mindset and actually cares about his friend's life.
I see no reason why Goku should care about Vegeta's life more than Vegeta himself.. Vegeta's 50 years old now.
??? Because that’s what friends do???
Goku said he would let Vegeta do it so let him fight. If Goku's going to interfere anytime Vegeta looks to be losing then he might as well ignore Vegeta's request and fight with him regardless of if he wants to or not because thats what he's doing. If Goku can't accept that the possibility of death in these fights exists then he has no business being there.
That shouldn’t mean Goku and Vegeta can’t attempt to use their combined efforts. Surely, in a survivalist situation, it would be better to use all that you have before resigning.
Everytime he interferes he insults Vegeta. He's saying everytime that Vegeta lacks the talent to get himself out of bad situations in battle. He's saying he doesn't trust Vegeta's tactical judgement. If he wants help let him ask for it.
Then Goku would be correct in such situation. Vegeta could not have gotten out of that situation by himself. Vegeta only feels insulted because he is arrogant.
It's extremely annoying to hear Vegeta's bragging about how he's a genius and a special warrior only for him to suck in battle, for him to not realize he sucks, and lash out at Goku helping him and for Goku to keep helping him and for Vegeta to keep lashing out and never learning to fend for himself or realize he can't.
Well that’s too bad, because Vegeta...
Because everytime he comes close to truly failing in battle and realizing he's not nearly as good as he thinks he is and isn't fit to fight alone, here comes Goku to bail him out, to which Vegeta angrily hits him and goes back to saying I had that!! Really? Let see it then. For once I want to see Goku call this asshole's bluff.
...is inherently THAT prideful. Even if he dies and revives, he will never change his ways. It is fundamental to his character. There is no point in letting Vegeta die if he won’t learn his lesson that way.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:56 am

This is a bizarre avenue of discussion, tbh.

Goku saved Vegeta just like Vegeta saves him. It's not a blood rivalry between them anymore. Goku clearly respects Vegeta enough to stay back when Vegeta wants to fight solo, but he's not gonna stand by and watch him die. Vegeta is the same for Goku.

Also, his relationship with Vegeta and Krillin are so radically different, that to simply group them as "best friend" or "not best friend" is a real disservice. Krillin and Goku are friends because of what they went through. They were bonded by the hardships and their experience. That's a very typical camaraderie. Vegeta and Goku's relationship is vastly different. Vegeta and Goku are kindred spirits. They're each only fully understood by the other.

To really sum it up: Krillin can sympathize with Goku, while Vegeta can empathize with Goku.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:13 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:15 am
Uh, guys... You don't think... Bardock might be Granola's father? No, surely not... Nooo...
That would be the most audacious twist in all of Dragon Ball. I would hate and love Toyotaro so much if he went for this.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:39 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:08 pm
A couple of suggestions on the subject of Goku and vitals:
  • I got the impression that this encounter was simply a sign that Goku has progressed in Ultra Instinct since the earlier fight with Granolah. His use of it with SSjB - the most accurate way of using it, without just using the Divine Power transformation - wasn't refined enough to counter Granolah's vital strikes initially (and as a consequence, he said his training was lacking), but this time around, he's moved deeper into Ultra Instinct such that he's basically doing what he did against Jiren when he used Omen in Chapter 41. So I figure his accuracy with Ultra Instinct is now at this level, even at a transformation that's not dedicated to Ultra Instinct?
  • Is it possible that the 'vitals' being referred to here are actually Qi Meridians rather than organs, as such? Looking at the handy-dandy diagram on the Wiki page, it seems as though each of the places Granolah has landed pinpoint strikes on his foes correspond with striking points in the Qi/Ki 'network'. It's perhaps interesting to note that each time Granolah has landed a successful strike, he's dumped his opponents out of their transformations even before they realise what's happened, so maybe there's more of a ki aspect to it than just the basic interrelation of the body and ki. Perhaps this explains how such small shifts in movement on Goku's part make so much of a difference?
Nice observations.

- I was rereading chapters 40-43 the week before chapter 76 was released and this memory was quite fresh in mind. It seems very similar indeed, which makes a interesting debate whether Goku could best his old Sign form with current Super Saiyan Blue or not.

- Your description of how Cerealians’ red eye works is very similar to Byakugan from Narutoverse. Hyūga Neji is capable of seeing chakra points and strike precisely on where it hurts more. It always baffles me when YouTubers compare this ability with Sharigan, which is more affined with how Saiyans fight than otherwise.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:46 am

TBMx wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:38 pm
Whatever his reason. I'm annoyed by Goku interfering in Vegeta's stupid decisions. If Vegeta kicks and hits Goku into rocks because he's so determined to do it his own way, and if he wants to die then he's a grown man, let him. In dbz, when Vegeta made a - what I would call foolish - decision, the story never shied away from him paying for it with his life. From there he finally learned. At the moment its like Vegetas stumbling on the edge of a cliff and Goku reaches out to hold him to stop him from falling, and as he's doing this Vegeta's hitting Goku in the nuts. Like dude just let him go.
Goku doesn't know why Vegeta is so obsessed with facing Granolah alone, he even asks him that. It's natural for him to try to stop his friend from getting killed. I don't think Vegeta really shared with Goku how he feels about the Saiyans' crimes or why the situation with Granolah had such an effect on him, so he replies that he was just being "proud". And seeing that in the end both Vegeta and Granolah were about to die (and obviously not understanding why they both gave up), it's also natural that Goku would try to interfere again

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