"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:49 am

Goku can only have one close friend and Vegeta and Kuririn must fight for the spot next arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:02 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:13 am
That would be the most audacious twist in all of Dragon Ball. I would hate and love Toyotaro so much if he went for this.
After Toyotaro's last interview in which he says he doesn't feel like he can add crucial plot points to the series on his own (like the new set of Dragom Balls), Bardock's involvement here seems to be Toriyama's touch tbh. After Minus and Broly, it wouldn't surprise me if Toriyama wanted to somehow explore more about his character since he fleshed out this arc. But it's just a feeling

Although Toyotaro would probably love the idea of ​​working with Bardock on DBS

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:39 am

Toyotaro is also a big fan of the TV special so maybe he will push for Bardock’s characterization to lean a bit more towards the TV special one’s.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:44 am

If Goku had to choose between "hanging out" with Vegeta and Kuririn, he would choose Vegeta because he wants to fight. If that makes Vegeta Goku's best friend, then I agree. And clearly Vegeta has no other friends besides his wife...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:00 am

TKA said it best. Kuririn and Goku are childhood buds who went through a lot together, but Vegeta and Goku each complete and truly understand the other. Their complementary nature has been a recurring motif in Super and I'm fairly sure was strongly alluded to in the original run.

Soulmates. They're soulmates, guys.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:41 am

emperior wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:39 am
Toyotaro is also a big fan of the TV special so maybe he will push for Bardock’s characterization to lean a bit more towards the TV special one’s.
Toriyama liked it too. Thats why he had Frieza wait a month after Bardock Arrived to Blow up the Planet. So the Major Events of the Special Likely still occurred. Its a shame it got cut from the Movie.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:20 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:08 pm
A couple of suggestions on the subject of Goku and vitals:
  • I got the impression that this encounter was simply a sign that Goku has progressed in Ultra Instinct since the earlier fight with Granolah. His use of it with SSjB - the most accurate way of using it, without just using the Divine Power transformation - wasn't refined enough to counter Granolah's vital strikes initially (and as a consequence, he said his training was lacking), but this time around, he's moved deeper into Ultra Instinct such that he's basically doing what he did against Jiren when he used Omen in Chapter 41. So I figure his accuracy with Ultra Instinct is now at this level, even at a transformation that's not dedicated to Ultra Instinct?
  • Is it possible that the 'vitals' being referred to here are actually Qi Meridians rather than organs, as such? Looking at the handy-dandy diagram on the Wiki page, it seems as though each of the places Granolah has landed pinpoint strikes on his foes correspond with striking points in the Qi/Ki 'network'. It's perhaps interesting to note that each time Granolah has landed a successful strike, he's dumped his opponents out of their transformations even before they realise what's happened, so maybe there's more of a ki aspect to it than just the basic interrelation of the body and ki. Perhaps this explains how such small shifts in movement on Goku's part make so much of a difference?
Dang! Good observation. Yes this is more akin to the reality of the story right now.
Cipher wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:45 pm
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:08 pm
[*] Is it possible that the 'vitals' being referred to here are actually Qi Meridians rather than organs, as such? Looking at the handy-dandy diagram on the Wiki page, it seems as though each of the places Granolah has landed pinpoint strikes on his foes correspond with striking points in the Qi/Ki 'network'. It's perhaps interesting to note that each time Granolah has landed a successful strike, he's dumped his opponents out of their transformations even before they realise what's happened, so maybe there's more of a ki aspect to it than just the basic interrelation of the body and ki. Perhaps this explains how such small shifts in movement on Goku's part make so much of a difference?[/list]
The word used in Japanese is 急所 (kyuusho), which is “weak point/critical point,” so yes, the implication is very much that Granolah’s strikes are akin to acupuncture—he’s going for pressure points. Hence their stopping power, but also hence the smallest movement throwing before he finishes his strike sending him off-target.

And hence my confusion when I saw people talking about shifting internal organs.
You are correct. Don't know why I said "internal vitals." Your dive into the Japanese makes it even more clear. Appreciate it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:54 pm

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19499#p531935

AGE 801
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That is the best way that Goku and Vegeta's lives end. And it perfectly sums up their relationship.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:29 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:41 am
emperior wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:39 am
Toyotaro is also a big fan of the TV special so maybe he will push for Bardock’s characterization to lean a bit more towards the TV special one’s.
Toriyama liked it too. Thats why he had Frieza wait a month after Bardock Arrived to Blow up the Planet. So the Major Events of the Special Likely still occurred. Its a shame it got cut from the Movie.
The two cannot be co-exist. In the special, Goku is still on Vegeta during the events, and there’s no Freeza order for all Saiyans to be called to their home Planet.

Sure, you might headcanon that aside from these details, the same events of the TV special happen in the canon during that month, but nothing indicates this to be the case.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:43 pm

LightBing wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:43 pm
Sure, the writers can do everything they want doesn't mean the contribution is sincere and worth it.
Bardock's involvement here might not be "sincere" (but then I have to question: when Bardock's involvement is "sincere"? Only when the majority of people like it? Seems to be an arbitrary thing if that's the case), as it could've been any other person, but it definitely is worth it, since it's none other than Bardock, Goku's father.

But this is obviously a matter of opinion, so discussing it is a waste of time.
LightBing wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:43 pm
If Goku is told about his father, what's his reaction beyond "Guess my dad was one of the good ones, isn't that something Vegeta!". What kind of reflection is there to be had?
We don't know how Goku would react. It's pointless to keep trying to predict this, as people keep doing for random reasons.
LightBing wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:43 pm
Goku facing his Saiyan heritage has been told, adding his father to the mix shouldn't change anything based on Goku's personality.
Dunno. He even came to call himself "Kakarot" recently, further accepting his Saiyan heritage, who knows what could happen if Bardock is also in the mix.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:13 pm

Okay, so, still, I never saw it as Goku shifting his internal organs Yakuza assassin style using UI anyway, and now that after lots of additional discussion more people are agreeing that, no, that's not what Goku did in his latest match up against an even more powerful Granolah, how exactly is Goku's tired, injured SSB -- no UI -- supposed to be micrododging Granolah's pressure point attacks that his full power, fresh in the fight Ultra Instinct form couldn't instinctively dodge?

Moving without thinking is literally the hallmark of the form, it's faster than any other fighting style/transformation because of that. Dodging is arguably is most overpowered feature. But we're supposed to just go with Goku figuring out where Granolah is going to attack, waiting for it, watching for it, and then consciously dodging Granolah's attacks, and that working when UI couldn't do that, just because, ohhhhhh, nice one Goku, you figured it out? That doesn't make any sense...

Am I taking crazy pills?

I realize this is, all things aside, a pretty minor grievance, but... it's just yet another issue with Ultra Instinct on top of so many for me.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:27 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:13 pm
Moving without thinking is literally the hallmark of the form
The idea of Ultra Instinct comes from the basic idea of the human brain requiring less effort to do tasks with which it's familiar. Whis' training focused on making Goku and Vegeta able to cut down on those neural pathways so they could focus elsewhere while dodging and so on become second nature.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Ultra Instinct lets Goku dodge automatically, but how do you dodge something you aren't familiar with? It's because he now knows Granolah's shtick that he's able to barely dodge the attacks. And he's still taking tremendous damage.

If he was using true ultra instinct, he'd either be fully dodging or taking even less damage. Experience-wise, the Goku fighting now is not the Goku fighting 2 chapters ago.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:49 pm

Goku and Vegeta are like pasta and antipasta.

Anyway, back to the whole Bardock: Father of Granola hit-n-run, while I hope it's not true, it could explain a few things, if you'll entertain the dreadful thought. Bardock could've easily visited Planet Cereal at some point, maybe crashed en route to a mission, fathered Granola (if humans are compatible, no reason Cerealians can't be), then was forced to return with a full platoon on Freeza's orders, but couldn't go through with killing his son. It would be in-character for modern Bardock to be compassionate towards his family, but still showcase his muddy morality as fathering bastard halfbreed kids ain't noble work, plus he could've cheated on Gine providing she was even in the picture at this point. As for Monaito... I dunno, killing old ass Namekians probably wasn't in the job description anyway. Granola being half-Saiyan could explain his enormous potential, plus his ability to increase his power over the course of battle. Lastly, Granola having Saiyan blood would be the penultimate slap in the face against his entire vengeance quest, short of being 1/3 Freeza Clan.

As I said before though, I'm secretly hoping that the explanation is a more elegant case of Bardock having a very brief flash of conscience for whatever reason, doesn't need to be anything too crazy, though I do get the feeling there's something bigger at play.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:23 pm

TKA wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:27 pm
Do you see where I'm going with this? Ultra Instinct lets Goku dodge automatically, but how do you dodge something you aren't familiar with? It's because he now knows Granolah's shtick that he's able to barely dodge the attacks. And he's still taking tremendous damage.

If he was using true ultra instinct, he'd either be fully dodging or taking even less damage. Experience-wise, the Goku fighting now is not the Goku fighting 2 chapters ago.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd say Toyo and Toriyama have pulled less satisfactory explanations for why a new form doesn't work the way you think it does out of their ass, but... I will argue that just because he's never been finger punched before doesn't mean that it shouldn't still register as a straightforward attack and that if he's able to watch for and consciously dodge them now, beat up and in a slower form, then the form he has that was fresh and literally made to auto-dodge faster than anything else in the universe should have been able to dodge them no problem.

It would different if Granolah were using extremely unorthodox movements, like drunken boxing, or injuring Goku with techniques that don't at first blush even seem to be attacks, but, no, he's thrusting his fingers or hands forward in very clear stabbing motions. If you can see that, you would recognize it as an attack, and UI is meant to even potentially recognize it as an attack before the body's brain has processed the information, "oh, shit, I need to dodge, I am being attacked." That's what it is explicitly stated as supposed to do that makes it better than lesser forms.

I can, to some extent, buy that Goku has now seen the attacks and is more familiar with them and thus knows what to anticipate and how to react; however, sure Goku now has more experience against Granolah's attacks, but Goku is also more injured, more tired, and more slow than he was when he fought Granolah before, and Granolah has only gotten, if absolutely nothing else, because it's actually quite unclear wtf his other eye glowing red does for him, Granolah has only gotten more accurate in his attacks since UI Goku couldn't dodge him before.

I'm sorry, for me it just doesn't make sense and is yet another instance of them just flat out ignoring what UI is supposed to do.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:37 pm

TKA wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:54 pm
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19499#p531935

AGE 801
Son Goku vanishes.
--Knowing his end is near, Goku leaves Earth with Vegeta so that the two can finally settle their score. Several years later, [astronomers?] note the explosion of a supernova. Possibly this was an aftereffect of Son Goku and Vegeta’s battle.
That is the best way that Goku and Vegeta's lives end. And it perfectly sums up their relationship.
It'd be neat if their fight instead of it simply causing a supernova at this point just creates a whole new Universe. That'd be interesting.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:12 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:37 pm
TKA wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:54 pm
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19499#p531935

AGE 801
Son Goku vanishes.
--Knowing his end is near, Goku leaves Earth with Vegeta so that the two can finally settle their score. Several years later, [astronomers?] note the explosion of a supernova. Possibly this was an aftereffect of Son Goku and Vegeta’s battle.
That is the best way that Goku and Vegeta's lives end. And it perfectly sums up their relationship.
It'd be neat if their fight instead of it simply causing a supernova at this point just creates a whole new Universe. That'd be interesting.
Yeah, I'm sure when DBO was being made Toriyama still didn't think the power would go to such extents in the future, and the Supernova was written by Z-standards. Now such a fight between Final!Goku and Final!Vegeta definitely needs something more than that :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:23 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:13 pm
But we're supposed to just go with Goku figuring out where Granolah is going to attack, waiting for it, watching for it, and then consciously dodging Granolah's attacks, and that working when UI couldn't do that, just because, ohhhhhh, nice one Goku, you figured it out? That doesn't make any sense...
Goku knows where Granola will attack because he knows where his vital points are, so if Granola is approaching from behind, he knows where he'll strike and what vital point to shift. If Granola is coming from the front, he knows where he'll get hit in order to be put down.

He cannot dodge it, but he can shift it's position in a way that the attack won't be as effective. He is still getting bodied and returned back to base, only it's no longer a "fatal" blow. Like others have said, the vital point Granola strikes isn't a large area, it's a pretty precise spot and apparently the minimal shift in position throws the attack out of balance.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:32 pm

One last thing I’ll say on the topic surrounding Bardock is that the problem with making him one of the “good ones” is it comes across as too coincidental and, for lack of a better word, safe. The whole idea behind Goku in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs is that he’s an outlier among the his race. If you establish his parents as also being people with a conscience, then it gives off some mixed signals about the uniqueness of Goku’s nature. If anything, it makes Raditz seem like the outlier of the family. That’s not to say that Bardock needs to just be pure evil with no redeeming qualities, but don’t try and paint him as having a greater sense of morality than the majority of other Saiyans.

That’s the big problem with Minus in general. It feels overly safe and cliche. It takes what was a fairly unique backstory for Goku, that had a nice sense of irony to it, and makes it into something that you’d expect from a more traditional Westernized take on Dragon Ball.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:43 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:23 pm
Ziegander wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:13 pm
But we're supposed to just go with Goku figuring out where Granolah is going to attack, waiting for it, watching for it, and then consciously dodging Granolah's attacks, and that working when UI couldn't do that, just because, ohhhhhh, nice one Goku, you figured it out? That doesn't make any sense...
Goku knows where Granola will attack because he knows where his vital points are, so if Granola is approaching from behind, he knows where he'll strike and what vital point to shift. If Granola is coming from the front, he knows where he'll get hit in order to be put down.

He cannot dodge it, but he can shift it's position in a way that the attack won't be as effective. He is still getting bodied and returned back to base, only it's no longer a "fatal" blow. Like others have said, the vital point Granola strikes isn't a large area, it's a pretty precise spot and apparently the minimal shift in position throws the attack out of balance.
I understand that's what Goku is doing. I'm just saying, how is it he can do it now, when his body is slower AND he has to actually think about not only anticipating it, but also shifting just a hair's breadth out of the way, when he couldn't have done it before in UI? How could UI not have managed to dodge an inch to the side if not dodge the attack entirely if it is, in fact, an attack his slower, active thought form can dodge even a little bit?

I'm all for giving Vegeta the shine in these chapters and making him look like he's handling himself in the fights better than Goku, hell, perhaps even throughout the entire arc, we'll see, but this just seems to be inconsistent.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:57 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:32 pm
don’t try and paint him as having a greater sense of morality than the majority of other Saiyans.
Too late, that's exactly how Toriyama sees and wants to depict Bardock.

As per his words, Bardock possesses calm judgment and a small measure of humanity, on top of not being cold-hearted and of simple thoughts, like most Saiyans.

Toriyama (?) established this new Bardock's personality since 2010 (for those who know Dragon Ball Online) and outright stated that in a 2014 interview. We're 2021 and it seems people still haven't accepted it, despite the long time to try to accept his new personality. Maybe it's time to just move on? They don't need to accept it, sure, just... move on. I don't think we'll be seeing more of Toei's Bardock from now on.

Dragon Ball Heroes and future games will most likely continue to depict him as this "sort-of-evil-but-leaned-to-goodness" character, thus further contributing to the "erasing" of old Bardock from people's memories little by little.

(That said, we do need Bardock with headband. There's no Bardock without headband, it's part of his iconic design).
Last edited by Grimlock on Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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