"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:55 pm

BWri wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:53 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:16 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:56 am
I'd be cool if the plan was to revive the Saiyans. That would be a ton of interesting new character interactions to have!
Now that would be a real jumping the shark moment and I would bail on the franchise if Super pulls anything like that.

Bringing back the likes of Future Trunks and Freeza have already brought nothing interesting or unique to the table, in the case of the former has retroactively ruined what was an already perfectly satisfactory story. And the jury is still out on Broly as he's still a relatively "fresh" character.

Keep the Saiyans dead and just come up with new characters to write.
We should totally do that ... so we can then bring in Dr. Raichi with his Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans which would undue all of Burdock's hard work and reset the status quo.
I'm pretty sure Dragon Ball Heroes has already done something like that. :P

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:58 pm

The Grand Priest reveals his true plan - merging all the timelines together and ruling as God himself! This includes every non-canon character that exists, in order to serve under him!

*The forum explodes*

Seriously though, Bardock shouldn't come back. 😁

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:21 pm

ZodiacBeast wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:58 pm
The Grand Priest reveals his true plan - merging all the timelines together and ruling as God himself! This includes every non-canon character that exists, in order to serve under him!

*The forum explodes*

Seriously though, Bardock shouldn't come back. 😁
Hey now, don't leak the El Grande Padre arc so early.
:lol:
I don't think these theories about Bardock being revived or being Granolah's dad (by the way what the hell kind of theory is this :shock: ) are gonna come to pass. Sure he's a popular character and all, but he belongs in the past, his story is over, and I don't think Tori/Toyo would pander to fan demand to that much of a degree. Bringing him up in flashbacks and backstories is probably as far as it'll go. For now, at least...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:46 am

Let’s say, just hypothetically, that Bardock conceived Granolah.
If Monaito tells him he is actually a Saiyan’s bastard, wouldn’t this makes Granolah more bitter and insane? Surely he would default to blaming Bardock for his cruel existence (considering he was just about to kill himself), and end up feeling worse than he already is without resigning his vengeance against Freeza.

Also, where is Granolah’s tail?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:51 am

Bardock cheating on Gine and fathering Granolah seems a bit too dramatic for Dragon Ball, no way that will happen.

The only way I see Bardock coming back is if he's somehow needed to solve a problem in the current arc, but it would probably be a temporary revival. Maybe the new dragon can bring back people who died that long ago, but only for a day? It would be interesting to have a scene where Bardock tells Goku that he and Gine have been watching over him and are proud, and then have them fight along side each other.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:25 am

Bardock being the father is unnecessary and will open up a bunch of other questions and consequences, just being the saviour of Granola will do.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:18 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:51 am
Bardock cheating on Gine and fathering Granolah seems a bit too dramatic for Dragon Ball, no way that will happen.
He doesn’t necessarily have to cheat on Gine. He coulda done it with the Cerealian gal before meeting Gine.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:08 pm

TKA wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't find this particularly compelling because Vegeta's growth in regard to his relation to saiyan culture felt as complete as it could get by the end of the Boo arc. This is another facet of it, sure, but it doesn't feel unique enough so as to be justified in re-exploring.
In Boo arc, Vegeta’s growth felt complete in relation to his rivalry with Goku. However, his development is not finished because he has to face his past. His theme throughout Super was to tie up the loose ends as a character: husband, teacher, father, and now as a Saiyan. He’s not done yet.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:37 pm

Yeah..I think if they do go down a route of somehow making Granola and Goku related, that's exceptionally bad writing--even for Super.

I don't think they go that rout. I think any appearance of Bardock will strictly be flashback based.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:41 pm

Trouser wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:40 am
Zillamon51 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:00 pm
Y'all think Bardock is coming back? I think Bardock is coming back.

Next chapter, we'll certainly get a flashback of Bardock sparing Grano-mom and her offspring, if not outright saving them from the other Saiyans. But I don't think it will end there. Hearing the tale will spark something in Goku, a desire that he's never really had before: To reconnect with his Saiyan heritage. I think the denouement of the arc will be Goku using the DBs (or some Whis angel-magic) to actually meet his father. Maybe not full-on resurrection, but they will interact. This has never happened before in canon, so it would provide a 'must-see' fan moment, that isn't a big fight.

Bardock's coming back, y'all.
I do like me some flashbacks but bringing Bardock back is something I don't want to see. This is Dragon Ball Super we're talking about, he would be either wasted or badly written. Look at Future Trunks. He came back and some fans now hate him, calling him "Garry Stu". Some things better leave in the past, where they are safe.
To be fair...this isn't the anime we're talking about. I genuinely liked how Trunks was depicted in the manga adaptation--a character in over his head, but doing the right thing anyways. As opposed to pulling out "Super Saiyan Rage" out of his but for..."reasons."

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:08 pm
In Boo arc, Vegeta’s growth felt complete in relation to his rivalry with Goku. However, his development is not finished because he has to face his past. His theme throughout Super was to tie up the loose ends as a character: husband, teacher, father, and now as a Saiyan. He’s not done yet.
In the Boo arc, his past is explicitly brought up with all the "Majin Vegeta" stuff. There's a chapter with him in the Saiyan arc armor in modern Toriyama style for crying out loud. You know what the Boo arc had to say about Vegeta's past? He's not that person anymore, and he can never be that person anymore because he's changed that much.

His development was largely complete.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:58 pm

TKA wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm
DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:08 pm
In Boo arc, Vegeta’s growth felt complete in relation to his rivalry with Goku. However, his development is not finished because he has to face his past. His theme throughout Super was to tie up the loose ends as a character: husband, teacher, father, and now as a Saiyan. He’s not done yet.
In the Boo arc, his past is explicitly brought up with all the "Majin Vegeta" stuff. There's a chapter with him in the Saiyan arc armor in modern Toriyama style for crying out loud. You know what the Boo arc had to say about Vegeta's past? He's not that person anymore, and he can never be that person anymore because he's changed that much.

His development was largely complete.
To add on to this, Porunga bringing Vegeta back as part of the "good people" is contextual proof enough that he has atoned for his past.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:03 pm

Yes and No. Yes...he's a better person, but he still identifies proudly as a Saiyan. That's always been the main difference between Goku and Vegeta, and that's sort of the point that Beerus makes when he talks to Vegeta about his hang ups.

The Majin stuff was more about his inferiority complex. That absolutely has been dealt with.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:59 pm

I mean, yeah, you can say that Vegeta's development is largely complete in DB, and what we're seeing in Super isn't necessarily pivotal or groundbreaking for his character (in terms of totally changing his status quo), but I still I think it's a facet worth exploring in his character. Except for the midlife crisis with Majin Vegeta (which focused on different aspects of his personality), we never had many instances of Vegeta saying or thinking about how he really feels about the Saiyans' past crimes and himself. The Namekian village he murdered (and which never came back to life) was never touched again after the Freeza arc and we saw that side in Moro. This is one of the arguments a lot of people have against his development in DB (some commonly used exemples being the little we saw of this change on panel due to the Time Skip in the Cell-Boo transition, and how no one disputed Vegeta's status as a good guy despite of the numerous crimes he committed, Vegeta's lack of insight about all of this in the original run and so on..)

I wouldn't say that being considered by a magic dragon to be a ''good person'' (something that surprised Vegeta himself) necessarily has any bearing on how a person views his past actions or whether he thinks he actually atoned for his sins, and I think that it's interesting how Vegeta doesn't see it that way. As I said, it's not necessarily something essential to complete his development seen in DB, but I think retroactively it's something that adds more layer to his character and explores things we've seen very little in the original series.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:05 pm

It's a different phase now in Super. Vegeta is good. However, Vegeta can't forgive himself. He tells Moro he is a villain and is going to Hell. This is why Beerus wanted Vegeta to get rid of those doubts/guilt about he and his people's past sins. They got nothing to do with him now. He's even apologizing to Granolah about stuff he didn't even do to the Cerealian's.

lol Beerus is gonna kick Vegeta's in.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:23 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:41 pm
As opposed to pulling out "Super Saiyan Rage" out of his but for..."reasons."
Conversely, Trunks pulled out of his butt a power-up that Super Saiyan 2 never even hinted to have. I think people overlook this only because it's not outright a new transformation that gives him a new look, but it makes just as much sense as Super Saiyan Rage itself.

That power-up put him on the same level as Goku in his Super Saiyan 3 form. Trunks did train for eleven years, yes, but whatever his training was, it couldn't even be near/comparable to everything Goku went through ever since they last met (this ties to what I said just a few pages back: no one (Toriyama included) cares about power level).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:08 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:23 pm
kemuri07 wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:41 pm
As opposed to pulling out "Super Saiyan Rage" out of his but for..."reasons."
Conversely, Trunks pulled out of his butt a power-up that Super Saiyan 2 never even hinted to have. I think people overlook this only because it's not outright a new transformation that gives him a new look, but it makes just as much sense as Super Saiyan Rage itself.

That power-up put him on the same level as Goku in his Super Saiyan 3 form. Trunks did train for eleven years, yes, but whatever his training was, it couldn't even be near/comparable to everything Goku went through ever since they last met (this ties to what I said just a few pages back: no one (Toriyama included) cares about power level).
Trunks overdeveloped SSJ2 works because there is precedent for maximizing forms beyond their initial potential. We've seen it with both SSJ and SSB with their "Mastered" variants which yield several times more power than the initial versions.

In the manga, Trunks' growth in comparison to Goku's makes a lot more sense due to the manga omitting the Saiyan Beyond God base forms. Due to Trunks' own experiences, I can definitely see him training even harder than Goku and Vegeta, due to him being the literal savior of his future. At the very least, he'd train as hard as them.

Perhaps his training with Supreme Kai and his own ingenuity led him to gain more strength in SSJ2 than Goku along with Goku losing interest in the form for SSJ3, SSG, and all the SSB variants, not to mention Omen and UI. Goku has his plate full with forms while Trunks only needs to focus on one.

In short, I see Trunks possessing something of a FPSSJ2 while Goku's many numerous forms have led to him losing his desire to focus all his efforts on perfecting SSJ2 which Trunks apparently has or is close to.

Same can be said with all the mortal forms vs god forms. Trunks just has less forms to focus on so he can more easily master the ones that he has. Kinda like a kid with one videogame vs a kid with ten. The kid with the one cartridge will likely be a complete beast at that Tetris cart, while the other kid is no where as good at it due to having Zelda, Mario, Metroid, and Dragon Quest to to occupy his time.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:15 pm

TKA wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm
DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:08 pm
In Boo arc, Vegeta’s growth felt complete in relation to his rivalry with Goku. However, his development is not finished because he has to face his past. His theme throughout Super was to tie up the loose ends as a character: husband, teacher, father, and now as a Saiyan. He’s not done yet.
In the Boo arc, his past is explicitly brought up with all the "Majin Vegeta" stuff. There's a chapter with him in the Saiyan arc armor in modern Toriyama style for crying out loud. You know what the Boo arc had to say about Vegeta's past? He's not that person anymore, and he can never be that person anymore because he's changed that much.

His development was largely complete.
And yet he is still feeling guilty of all sins he had committed. Sure, he was not that person anymore at the end of Boo arc, but that doesn't mean his character is complete. He only merely acknowledged Goku as a different Saiyan than he was, Goku's growth as a fighter. Vegeta just finally decided to let go of his hatred toward his rival. However, that doesn't mean his character arc is finished. We see his regrets, loose ends, and different facets of life. True, it's not something mandatory as a character arc, but it's something we appreciate when we see how much he has grown as a person. An excellent example of this is his willingness to help Future Trunks as a father. His relationship with Trunks is finally complete in a happy ending.

Beerus told him to stop thinking about Saiyans' atrocities as they have nothing to do with him anymore. But he's still not letting it go. It's his own struggle as a person.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:59 pm

It sure would be cool if Vegeta's conscious put him into conflict with Beers that led to them having to have a full-on battle with stakes.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:54 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:23 pm
kemuri07 wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:41 pm
As opposed to pulling out "Super Saiyan Rage" out of his but for..."reasons."
Conversely, Trunks pulled out of his butt a power-up that Super Saiyan 2 never even hinted to have. I think people overlook this only because it's not outright a new transformation that gives him a new look, but it makes just as much sense as Super Saiyan Rage itself.
It's not a Super Saiyan 2 related power up, people just treat it like that because it's more convenient and easier. And even if it was something like that, it wouldn't be new in this series because we have Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue as examples (the power difference between SS Goku during both Freeza and Cell sagas is stratospheric, same for SS Blue before and after the fight against Zamasu, and all of this was achieved merely by mastering the transformation). Users pushing the power of their transformations to the limit has happened before.

Anyway his power isn't far fetched either, because Trunks just trained his ass off for over a decade, and in the year before his return to the past he's had numerous near-death experiences facing Black on top of it. In the manga Goku and Vegeta don't have super strong base forms so Trunks gains are much more credible (and yet, he ended up not even matching SS3 Goku's power, just got closer)

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