Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:43 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:33 am
I always assumed Trunks was using, or had experienced the same kind of boost, probably after fighting Black so much and losing all the time, his father did when Beerus slapped Bulma. Geets' boost was permanent, seeing how his SS2 was still above SS3 in that same arc.

Besides, we know too little about SS2 to think if a certain power up is possible, not possible or an asspull, nobody has used that form consistently(aside of GT). I mean, it's the mastery of an existing form, it's not a new unexplained form like SS Rage. He's also a hybrid like Gohan, his potential should also be quite high, making it less convoluted.
Yeah, all of this. Vegeta's rage mutation was the first clue that SSJ2 could be expanded upon. Then Trunks managed to expand it in different ways via the anime and manga. I see Super Saiyan Rage as yet another mutation of SSJ2. Super Saiyan forms in general seem to be malleable enough to suit the users needs when they really need it, at least these days.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:58 pm

Yeah, I don't mind that Trunks' part tbh. Trunks flat-out tells us that "[Goku and Vegeta's] bodies have probably reached their limits long ago". It was in regards to their zenkai boosts, but it also works with their training gains.

I always assumed that Super!Goku was only marginally stronger, if at all, than BoG!Goku. The main difference lied in the fact that he could empower himself further with god ki. And the reason being that his body simply plateaued, as far as his saiyan biology goes. Which makes sense, modern Saiyans as a species are infamous for transforming in order to reach new heights of power - so Goku's body just hit a hard ceiling when it comes to his normal state, needing to transform to become more powerful. Which is supported by the fact that he's striving to improve his forms, not his "base" strength.

So yeah, Trunks having reached that plateau eventually and matching Goku's SS3 with his own supercharged SS2 is okay with me.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Naturally that applied to the manga, but I think the same happened in the anime by the time the writers decided to follow somethings from the manga like SSG returning.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:15 pm

I agree with the consensus overall about the base forms of Goku and Vegeta pre-Moro, but post Moro Goku and Vegeta's base forms should have massively improved.

Especially Vegeta. He specifically after spirit training got ridiculously strong, judging by the scene where he tries to shoot a normal finger blast to destroy a walkie talkie, but shoots a massive ki attack instead by mistake against the Zarbon looking dude.

Vegeta in his SSBe form also (probably) overtook UI sign Goku and full power Broly, who was blue fusion tier. That's an insane jump, and also isn't explained as him mastering the SSBe form or anything like that. Dude's just way way way stronger now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:04 am

Yes, Vegeta in his base form has greatly improved in Yadrat, and probably some more after training with Beerus, he did train in his base and we've seen how strong his SSBE was when he traded blows with Granola, and he couldn't even move Prime Moro before.

Goku is much more efficient in his base form now that he can use UI and do as great as he does as SS, or close enough. I'm not sure if he has gotten stronger, though. It is possible, but I don't think there's enough evidence. Although, he does fight alongside SS Vegeta, so maybe his base also has improved a lot, plus he can use UI.

I have no idea how strong they might be in their base forms by now. Stronger than Namek Freeza for sure, probably stronger than the androids, but not even close to what the anime came up with.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:53 am

I think Goku and Vegeta had powered up training with Whis because Revival of F is still canon and SSJB Vegeta at 1/10th of his power was comparable to SSJ Goku. I think they are like, around top Boo Saga levels (Ultimate Gohan, Gohan-Boo) in base most of the series.

Trunks' lines reminds me of Goku and Vegeta saying they were nearing their limits in the anime when they were in the Rosat. It was a line that held truth back then, but now they have evolved enough to break through said limits. It also helps that both were training their spirits (Meditation on Yardrat, mastering UI), not their bodies.

What do you guys make of their possible gains in the Goku Black Saga? Vegeta goes from losing to SSJ Goku Black to beating SSJR Black like nothing with his Rosat training. Goku suggests all Vegeta did was master the bursts thing, but some people think Vegeta ough to have powered up as well. I personally don't think SSJ Black > FP SSJB Vegeta is implied. Black still got damaged enough to get another zenkai and go Rosé, it wasn't until Vegeta's stamina faded again that he got the upperhand.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:09 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:53 am
I think Goku and Vegeta had powered up training with Whis because Revival of F is still canon and SSJB Vegeta at 1/10th of his power was comparable to SSJ Goku. I think they are like, around top Boo Saga levels (Ultimate Gohan, Gohan-Boo) in base most of the series.

Trunks' lines reminds me of Goku and Vegeta saying they were nearing their limits in the anime when they were in the Rosat. It was a line that held truth back then, but now they have evolved enough to break through said limits. It also helps that both were training their spirits (Meditation on Yardrat, mastering UI), not their bodies.

What do you guys make of their possible gains in the Goku Black Saga? Vegeta goes from losing to SSJ Goku Black to beating SSJR Black like nothing with his Rosat training. Goku suggests all Vegeta did was master the bursts thing, but some people think Vegeta ough to have powered up as well. I personally don't think SSJ Black > FP SSJB Vegeta is implied. Black still got damaged enough to get another zenkai and go Rosé, it wasn't until Vegeta's stamina faded again that he got the upperhand.
I just think Black evolved his SSj to turn it into SSR. So basically, with Black it's SSR > SSj, but not by a big margin. It was still bellow Vegeta's CSSB, which I believe the God-Blue switcharoo tapped into during the switches. After all, Goku didn't train at all in that arc, but his CSSB was on par with God Zamasu. He couldn't be exactly weaker than Vegeta, since in the next arc Whis confirmed that they were both equal again once Vegeta mastered Blue as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Shintoki » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:34 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:09 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:53 am
I think Goku and Vegeta had powered up training with Whis because Revival of F is still canon and SSJB Vegeta at 1/10th of his power was comparable to SSJ Goku. I think they are like, around top Boo Saga levels (Ultimate Gohan, Gohan-Boo) in base most of the series.

Trunks' lines reminds me of Goku and Vegeta saying they were nearing their limits in the anime when they were in the Rosat. It was a line that held truth back then, but now they have evolved enough to break through said limits. It also helps that both were training their spirits (Meditation on Yardrat, mastering UI), not their bodies.

What do you guys make of their possible gains in the Goku Black Saga? Vegeta goes from losing to SSJ Goku Black to beating SSJR Black like nothing with his Rosat training. Goku suggests all Vegeta did was master the bursts thing, but some people think Vegeta ough to have powered up as well. I personally don't think SSJ Black > FP SSJB Vegeta is implied. Black still got damaged enough to get another zenkai and go Rosé, it wasn't until Vegeta's stamina faded again that he got the upperhand.
I just think Black evolved his SSj to turn it into SSR. So basically, with Black it's SSR > SSj, but not by a big margin. It was still bellow Vegeta's CSSB, which I believe the God-Blue switcharoo tapped into during the switches. After all, Goku didn't train at all in that arc, but his CSSB was on par with God Zamasu. He couldn't be exactly weaker than Vegeta, since in the next arc Whis confirmed that they were both equal again once Vegeta mastered Blue as well.
isn't black's SSR just his SSB version but it's rosé cuz he's an actual god unlike goku? or was that a manga only thing? :crazy: tv super perplexing fans since 2015 :shifty:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:08 pm

It seems Vegeta trained his SSG and how to switch it with SSB, not his base form, so I don't think there's any reason to believe he's overall stronger, instead of just better at using his SSG form and bursting his SSB for the offensive. After all, he lost the first time because he kept using SSB, not learning jack from the mistakes he made in the previous arc lol, while being much stronger in similar forms with Black. His SSG being faster than Black's Rosé also hints at Vegeta being, on paper, better than Black.

Back to UI, if in his base form, Goku can use UI and get a similar result as if he was a SS, meaning UI improves his efficiency almost 50-fold, would this mean that the silver form improves his overall potency as much, or even more, considering it's a much more rounded form that UI+SS forms?
Could we extrapolate what we've seen from UI+base and use it to gauge the silver form?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:04 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:09 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:53 am
I think Goku and Vegeta had powered up training with Whis because Revival of F is still canon and SSJB Vegeta at 1/10th of his power was comparable to SSJ Goku. I think they are like, around top Boo Saga levels (Ultimate Gohan, Gohan-Boo) in base most of the series.

Trunks' lines reminds me of Goku and Vegeta saying they were nearing their limits in the anime when they were in the Rosat. It was a line that held truth back then, but now they have evolved enough to break through said limits. It also helps that both were training their spirits (Meditation on Yardrat, mastering UI), not their bodies.

What do you guys make of their possible gains in the Goku Black Saga? Vegeta goes from losing to SSJ Goku Black to beating SSJR Black like nothing with his Rosat training. Goku suggests all Vegeta did was master the bursts thing, but some people think Vegeta ough to have powered up as well. I personally don't think SSJ Black > FP SSJB Vegeta is implied. Black still got damaged enough to get another zenkai and go Rosé, it wasn't until Vegeta's stamina faded again that he got the upperhand.
I just think Black evolved his SSj to turn it into SSR. So basically, with Black it's SSR > SSj, but not by a big margin. It was still bellow Vegeta's CSSB, which I believe the God-Blue switcharoo tapped into during the switches. After all, Goku didn't train at all in that arc, but his CSSB was on par with God Zamasu. He couldn't be exactly weaker than Vegeta, since in the next arc Whis confirmed that they were both equal again once Vegeta mastered Blue as well.
Doubtful that Vegeta tapped into his CSSB power on those bursts since Fused Zamasu one shots him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:13 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:08 pm
Back to UI, if in his base form, Goku can use UI and get a similar result as if he was a SS, meaning UI improves his efficiency almost 50-fold, would this mean that the silver form improves his overall potency as much, or even more, considering it's a much more rounded form that UI+SS forms?
Could we extrapolate what we've seen from UI+base and use it to gauge the silver form?
According to Goku, ultra instinct becomes more efficient the more Goku upgrades his forms. So, in base he can perform more or less similar to Super Saiyan without ultra instinct, but when he uses it in conjunction with Super Saiyan God he could potentially perform better than Super Saiyan Blue without it. This could explain why he is doing so well, despite using a form weaker than Vegeta’s.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:07 am

So, would UI Blue be as good as Sign UI then?

Would have a SSB + UI vs Prime Moro done better than Sign?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:13 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:53 am
What do you guys make of their possible gains in the Goku Black Saga? Vegeta goes from losing to SSJ Goku Black to beating SSJR Black like nothing with his Rosat training. Goku suggests all Vegeta did was master the bursts thing, but some people think Vegeta ough to have powered up as well. I personally don't think SSJ Black > FP SSJB Vegeta is implied. Black still got damaged enough to get another zenkai and go Rosé, it wasn't until Vegeta's stamina faded again that he got the upperhand.
I tend to think that there aren't any substantial boosts in that arc except the ones the story makes explicit as tied to their techniques. Vegeta's training was said to focus on overcoming the drop-off in power from repeated activations of Blue, as well as mixing it with God to get its full power in repeated bursts, so I take it at its word on that being all the training was meant to give him--especially since he isn't implied to have eclipsed Goku in equivalent forms afterward (and Goku spent the day learning the Mafuba instead), and because Goku demonstrates through perfected Blue immediately afterward that the form itself held huge power that they just couldn't tap into successfully or for long. Thus, Vegeta getting a seeming power boosts just by repeated bursts of Blue at its max is well-justified in-universe even if he didn't get significantly stronger in a traditional sense.

So, basically: No major boosts to the characters on a base level, but obvious boosts overall through their new uses of Blue.

Also, Black never regains the upper hand in the manga. Vegeta squarely beats him. As for what that means about Rose stacking up to Blue, I don't think it necessarily means that Rose itself is inferior. Rather, it probably has untapped potential just like Vegeta and Goku find in Blue (since it ... basically just is Blue, with the stronger baseline Black has as Zamasu adjusts to Goku's body), but Vegeta beats Black to the punch there.

Re: The Trunks SS2 talk last page: I'm confused about what's even an issue there. Trunks kept polishing SS2. Goku and Vegeta moved on basically immediately to 3 and the god forms. There's nothing that seems weird about Trunks managing to get more out of a form they basically stopped focusing on, and it's not like he was stronger than them in it--they vastly eclipsed him in their god forms. It was just strong enough to compete with Goku's SS3. If anything, you could probably read that in-universe, they never really got the most out of 3 either--maybe it was also supposed to be able to see huge improvements the way Super Saiyan does in the Cell arc, or Trunks' SS2 does, but both the original and Super are nothing if not consistent in telling us that 3 just sucks to use, and there's certainly no reason to focus on improving it after getting God.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:30 am

I used to believe that Vegeta had gotten stronger in the manga after RoSaT (raw power wise), but Cipher made a good point. Goku and Vegeta are still portrayed as equals after they both mastered Super Saiyan Blue, and the performance differences we saw during Future Trunks arc boiled down to the methods they each found to try to overcome the weaknesses of the transformation (which caused both to be more or less effective depending on the situation).

But in response to the discussions above, I don't think Vegeta tapped into CSSB's power with the method he used against Black. It was implied that the SSB's power was only used to its fullest potential in the way found by Goku. Therefore, it is necessary for the aura to be sealed inside the body and even though Vegeta used the form in really short bursts, the Ki still leaked out. He just prevented this leak as much as he could with the God-Blue switch, maximizing Blue's power. I would say he took the most out of the imperfect version of SSB
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:07 am
So, would UI Blue be as good as Sign UI then?

Would have a SSB + UI vs Prime Moro done better than Sign?
I don't think so. Granolah clone's power was matched with SSB Goku, and yet he continued to be able to keep up with Goku even after UI was stacked on top of the transformation. From what we've seen, UI Omen itself is a much bigger boost than the one given by SSB (as seen in the Jiren fight), and the technique being used with Super Saiyan forms doesn't seem to increase Goku's overall power / strength. The gap is too big to make up for it

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:46 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:07 am
So, would UI Blue be as good as Sign UI then?

Would have a SSB + UI vs Prime Moro done better than Sign?
That’s an interesting question, because UI Sign is a form stronger than SSB and happens to use ultra instinct at default. So, UI Sign should perform better on paper, as it’s more powerful, but it’s also unstable and burns energy very quickly.

I would say UI Blue is better suited for an extended fight, while UI Sign and Perfect UI act more as trump cards, to be used in a decisive moment.

Though, if you ask me if UI Blue can outperform UI Sign’s first debut in manga, I think you could probably say maybe?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:33 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:30 am
I used to believe that Vegeta had gotten stronger in the manga after RoSaT (raw power wise), but Cipher made a good point. Goku and Vegeta are still portrayed as equals after they both mastered Super Saiyan Blue, and the performance differences we saw during Future Trunks arc boiled down to the methods they each found to try to overcome the weaknesses of the transformation (which caused both to be more or less effective depending on the situation).

But in response to the discussions above, I don't think Vegeta tapped into CSSB's power with the method he used against Black. It was implied that the SSB's power was only used to its fullest potential in the way found by Goku. Therefore, it is necessary for the aura to be sealed inside the body and even though Vegeta used the form in really short bursts, the Ki still leaked out. He just prevented this leak as much as he could with the God-Blue switch, maximizing Blue's power. I would say he took the most out of the imperfect version of SSB
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:07 am
So, would UI Blue be as good as Sign UI then?

Would have a SSB + UI vs Prime Moro done better than Sign?
I don't think so. Granolah clone's power was matched with SSB Goku, and yet he continued to be able to keep up with Goku even after UI was stacked on top of the transformation. From what we've seen, UI Omen itself is a much bigger boost than the one given by SSB (as seen in the Jiren fight), and the technique being used with Super Saiyan forms doesn't seem to increase Goku's overall power / strength. The gap is too big to make up for it
Yeah, every time Vegeta made the switch to SSB he had an aura so he can't be in CSSB. That form is strictly without an aura.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:13 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:08 pm
It seems Vegeta trained his SSG and how to switch it with SSB, not his base form, so I don't think there's any reason to believe he's overall stronger, instead of just better at using his SSG form and bursting his SSB for the offensive. After all, he lost the first time because he kept using SSB, not learning jack from the mistakes he made in the previous arc lol, while being much stronger in similar forms with Black. His SSG being faster than Black's Rosé also hints at Vegeta being, on paper, better than Black.

Back to UI, if in his base form, Goku can use UI and get a similar result as if he was a SS, meaning UI improves his efficiency almost 50-fold, would this mean that the silver form improves his overall potency as much, or even more, considering it's a much more rounded form that UI+SS forms?
Could we extrapolate what we've seen from UI+base and use it to gauge the silver form?
I mean, Vegeta literally just took a sensu bean and he was still overpowered by Super Saiyan Goku Black. It's clear that Vegeta got much stronger during his 2nd encounter.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:05 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:13 am
According to Goku, ultra instinct becomes more efficient the more Goku upgrades his forms.
still thinking this has been a giant-ass misstep: transformations should WEAKEN UI, especially SS given it's UI opposite

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:13 pm

How storng was UI Sign Goku after he trained with Merus? Could he beat Jiren by that point?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:00 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:05 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:13 am
According to Goku, ultra instinct becomes more efficient the more Goku upgrades his forms.
still thinking this has been a giant-ass misstep: transformations should WEAKEN UI, especially SS given it's UI opposite
It’s interesting that Goku doesn’t try to use ultra instinct in conjunction with regular Super Saiyan at first, but he does so from Super Saiyan God and up.

Actually, I have to rectify myself. Vegeta is the one that assumes Super Saiyan forms improve ultra instinct efficiency, not Goku. Despite that, it’s only when Goku uses the perfected version, that it is in max efficiency.

I would say transformations allow the body to react faster in response to the heightened instinct, as it grows sturdier and his muscles can offer better movements.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:39 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:13 pm
How storng was UI Sign Goku after he trained with Merus? Could he beat Jiren by that point?
I think so. UI Omen Goku was physically stronger than SSJBE Vegeta and SSJBE Vegeta was implied to have surpassed Broly according to Whis' assertion of there being no one that is stronger than Goku and Vegeta in U7.

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