Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:50 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:10 pm Pretty much this. Pushing the limit of how powerful a single attack can get is a staple of the franchise. Vegeta managed to damage Perfect Cell immensely with his Final Flash, Piccolo tore through Raditz with a full-charged Makankosappo, etc.

Goku doing the same thing with his Kamehameha to such a degree that his arms were briefly useless is honestly par for the course, and I really commend the anime team for really selling how much that took outta Goku; he didn't even manage this when using the KaiokenX4 against Vegeta when they first fought years ago, or when he used the KaiokenX10 against Hit.
You would think seeing Goku with his arms completely useless that he has to attack only using his legs would let viewers know that he did a limit breaking attack, the biggest Kamehameha he ever did lol.

About the other thing:

SSB Vegetto > Corrupted Fused Zamasu (Power weighted) > UIO Goku (2nd time) > SS2 Kefla > UIO Goku (1st time) > Corrupted Fused Zamasu > SS Kefla .

That's how I have them at the moment.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:36 am

Very strange underrating and downplaying of all the Zamases here, I'm just going to say this.
Goku9001 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:33 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:34 pm
Stronger than when he was stomped and almost killed by Black? Yes.

Stronger than Black? No.

Especially when you consider the fact that Black wasn't even moving one limb to completely corner and overwhelm both Goku and Vegeta; so imagine if he was actually risking his life with a life-risking move.
I'm confused here. How does Black's performance against SSJB Goku and Vegeta during their final encounter have any sort of relevance when we agree that Goku had become stronger anyways? Using that as a reference point by comparing Black to a weaker Goku makes no sense.

Regardless, glad we agree that Goku had to have become stronger or else his battle with Merged Zamasu as well as the other character statements that were made would make no sense.
We don't agree.

I never denied that Goku grew stronger after all the beat downs he got, but he's still not surpassing Black without Ultra Instinct.

And that performance is still valid because Black could casually overwhelm 2 Saiyans by himself without even having to move one limb. His clones were literally humiliating and bullying the two Saiyans. So any power-boost Goku might have gotten in ep. 65 is not closing that gap. A gap in which Goku is so pathetically weaker than Black that, even with Vegeta's help, he can't get past Black's clones. Let alone the real Black.

Also, Yeah, I agree that Goku has feats against a jobbing Fused Zamasu who is toying with people and taking his time. Very impressive indeed.

Future Trunks also has feats against a jobbing F. Zamasu, are we going to try and argue that he is also above Black? :think:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:59 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:36 am We don't agree.

I never denied that Goku grew stronger after all the beat downs he got, but he's still not surpassing Black without Ultra Instinct.

And that performance is still valid because Black could casually overwhelm 2 Saiyans by himself without even having to move one limb. His clones were literally humiliating and bullying the two Saiyans. So any power-boost Goku might have gotten in ep. 65 is not closing that gap. A gap in which Goku is so pathetically weaker than Black that, even with Vegeta's help, he can't get past Black's clones. Let alone the real Black.

Also, Yeah, I agree that Goku has feats against a jobbing Fused Zamasu who is toying with people and taking his time. Very impressive indeed.

Future Trunks also has feats against a jobbing F. Zamasu, are we going to try and argue that he is also above Black? :think:
I disagree since Merged Zamasu was only jobbing at the beginning of the battle, but I never mentioned Goku Black in my initial post. All I said was that in order for Goku to overpower Merged Zamasu who was gradually using more and more power, then he had to have gotten stronger given that he was much weaker than Merged Zamasu when he was jobbing.

I think another argument I read was that Goku only managed to do so with a "limit-breaking" move, but that in and of itself implies that he had gotten stronger since the word implies that he shattered his limits at that moment.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:49 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:59 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:36 am We don't agree.

I never denied that Goku grew stronger after all the beat downs he got, but he's still not surpassing Black without Ultra Instinct.

And that performance is still valid because Black could casually overwhelm 2 Saiyans by himself without even having to move one limb. His clones were literally humiliating and bullying the two Saiyans. So any power-boost Goku might have gotten in ep. 65 is not closing that gap. A gap in which Goku is so pathetically weaker than Black that, even with Vegeta's help, he can't get past Black's clones. Let alone the real Black.

Also, Yeah, I agree that Goku has feats against a jobbing Fused Zamasu who is toying with people and taking his time. Very impressive indeed.

Future Trunks also has feats against a jobbing F. Zamasu, are we going to try and argue that he is also above Black? :think:
I disagree since Merged Zamasu was only jobbing at the beginning of the battle, but I never mentioned Goku Black in my initial post. All I said was that in order for Goku to overpower Merged Zamasu who was gradually using more and more power, then he had to have gotten stronger given that he was much weaker than Merged Zamasu when he was jobbing.

I think another argument I read was that Goku only managed to do so with a "limit-breaking" move, but that in and of itself implies that he had gotten stronger since the word implies that he shattered his limits at that moment.
Okay so let's suppose that Goku and Black were to fight again somehow after ep. 65.

Goku uses his life-risking move to quickly put an end to Black.

Black replies with his own life-risking move.

Since Black, without using any life-risking move at all, could completely outclass the two Saiyans, as shown here (where he outclasses them simply by virtue of being there, without even moving one limb):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuo5h4HKXY&t=53s

It stands to reason that, since Black's "normal" state > Goku's "normal" state (because Black could outclass both Goku and Vegeta), thereby Black's "life-risking" move would also be > Goku's "life-risking" move.

As I said, anything Goku can do, Black can also do it and better. This has always been the case.

Goku needed SS2 to match Black in his Base form.

SSB Goku was stomped by Rosé Black twice.

SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta were completely cornered and overwhelmed once Black got the scythe.

Black is simply Goku, but better.

And that's why he's being downplayed here. Note that Black being able to beat Goku even after ep. 65 doesn't mean that Fused Zamasu is somehow weaker. Fused Zamasu is still the strongest fighter up to that point (and the strongest in general bar Zeno, once he goes into Infinite mode), and the one with the highest potential in the entire Franchise (literally Zeno himself had to intervene to stop him), and he's obviously astronomically stronger than Black, who is part of him.

But, at the same time, we cannot ignore the hype, statements, feats Black got. By saying "Goku could beat Black after ep. 65", you are asking me to ignore the fact that a casual Black who was standing idle, letting his clones do all the work, was casually stomping the two Saiyans.

I can't remember how this convo started and I think I joined midway, but I simply disagree with the idea that whatever boost Goku got is meaningful and puts him above Black. Because, remember, we never saw what Black could do with his full power, after his power "surpassed his own comprehension". By his own admission, HE WASN'T FIGHTING, because he didn't want to yet. And yet he was still stomping them simply by virtue of being there, creating those clones and that Rift.

Fused Zamasu is also being downplayed here btw. I remember that you or someone else claimed that Goku beat Fused Zamasu, but this never happened. Goku gave everything he could and all he accomplished was hurting Zamasu's face. At the end of the fight, Goku can't even transform or stand up, while Fused Zamasu is flying and exploding in power.

So in the end the crux of your argument is wrong. You tried to argue Goku > Black and that Goku got a massive power boost, because he supposedly defeated Zamasu, but in the end the narrative makes it clear that he couldn't defeat Zamasu. He could only momentarily push him back. In the end he was still outclassed and overwhelmed. Just like SSB Vegeta and Future Trunks with the Father-Son Galick Gun.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:23 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:50 amSSB Vegetto > Corrupted Fused Zamasu (Power weighted) > UIO Goku (2nd time) > SS2 Kefla > UIO Goku (1st time) > Corrupted Fused Zamasu > SS Kefla .
And what's your reason for thinking Zamasu is above Ultra Instinct Sign Goku?

Also seeing as Trunks after absorbing the Spirit Bomb defeated Zamasu then why is he so much stronger than Super Saiyan Kefla who had strength equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb?

Is Trunks above Blue Vegito seeing as how quick he defeated him in comparison?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:14 pm

I think a lot of times people need to rein in their tendencies to ascribe across-the-board power boosts to characters when they end up performing better than before.

For example, the Future Trunks arc has a few notable examples. Goku pushes his Kamehameha to the absolute limit he can muster, but he's not stronger overall. Similarly, Future Trunks utilizes a Spirit Bomb Sword which is able to overpower Merged Zamasu's own, but he himself isn't stronger than Merged Zamasu overall.

Also stuff in the Tournament of Power. When Vegeta and Jiren initially fought, Vegeta didn't suddenly get stronger when he started doing better; he just started seeing through Jiren's movements more effectively and managed to land solid strikes through his defences.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:57 pm

The hilarious thing is that the title itself of the episode is "Showdown! The Miraculous Power of Unyielding Warriors", which pretty much tells us that Goku and Trunks did all of that only because of a literal miracle.

So in other words the entire episode is one big clusterfuck of Plot-induced Stupidity.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:26 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:23 am
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:50 amSSB Vegetto > Corrupted Fused Zamasu (Power weighted) > UIO Goku (2nd time) > SS2 Kefla > UIO Goku (1st time) > Corrupted Fused Zamasu > SS Kefla .
And what's your reason for thinking Zamasu is above Ultra Instinct Sign Goku?

Also seeing as Trunks after absorbing the Spirit Bomb defeated Zamasu then why is he so much stronger than Super Saiyan Kefla who had strength equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb?

Is Trunks above Blue Vegito seeing as how quick he defeated him in comparison?
Because he somewhat matched fucking Vegetto Blue.

Trunks is weaker than all of them. I fully believe only the right half of Fused Zamasu got the power boost of going Corrupted so Trunks only surpassed the power initial Fused Zamasu had + whatever boost it's left half had by going giant.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:14 pm I think a lot of times people need to rein in their tendencies to ascribe across-the-board power boosts to characters when they end up performing better than before.

For example, the Future Trunks arc has a few notable examples. Goku pushes his Kamehameha to the absolute limit he can muster, but he's not stronger overall. Similarly, Future Trunks utilizes a Spirit Bomb Sword which is able to overpower Merged Zamasu's own, but he himself isn't stronger than Merged Zamasu overall.

Also stuff in the Tournament of Power. When Vegeta and Jiren initially fought, Vegeta didn't suddenly get stronger when he started doing better; he just started seeing through Jiren's movements more effectively and managed to land solid strikes through his defences.
This. 100%.

Vegeta didn't grow over 20 times stronger just because he hit Jiren twice in episode 122. That's ridiculous.

The episode explains exactly why it happened as you said.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:12 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:14 pm I think a lot of times people need to rein in their tendencies to ascribe across-the-board power boosts to characters when they end up performing better than before.

For example, the Future Trunks arc has a few notable examples. Goku pushes his Kamehameha to the absolute limit he can muster, but he's not stronger overall. Similarly, Future Trunks utilizes a Spirit Bomb Sword which is able to overpower Merged Zamasu's own, but he himself isn't stronger than Merged Zamasu overall.

Also stuff in the Tournament of Power. When Vegeta and Jiren initially fought, Vegeta didn't suddenly get stronger when he started doing better; he just started seeing through Jiren's movements more effectively and managed to land solid strikes through his defences.
Right, but the issue still remains that the narrative completely supports the idea of the Saiyans overcoming their limits to defeat Zamasu, so while Merged Zamasu was superior to them even before his mutation, it's undeniable that the Saiyans managed to overcome their limits and used whatever power they had to at least overpower his attacks.

Goku claims that they will need to get stronger to fight Merged Zamasu. Vegeta then asserts that "Saiyans have no limits", implying that there is a further wall that they can climb to which Goku replies "Yeah! Full Power!". Full Power doesn't inherently mean that they will overcome their limits, but since it is used to affirm Vegeta's claim, then we can assume that Goku agrees with a notion that there is a greater wall to climb and they're going to reach it.

When Vegeta and Trunks clash with Merged Zamasu, Vegeta and Trunks both claim that the potential of Saiyans is limitless, meaning that they will always be able to aspire to do greater things. This coincides with their ability to clash with Merged Zamasu as their limitless potential enables them to finally overpower Merged Zamasu's attack.

It's undeniable that Merged Zamasu was stronger. The Saiyans had to shatter their limits by using whatever power they had to overcome Merged Zamasu. However, the across-the-board power boost is something that is suggested by the narrative and how that provides context to their feats so it certainly is warranted.

I would also disagree with your statement about the ToP as Belmod's statements seem to support the idea that the Saiyans have limitless potential and Belmod questions how high they can go and how they are able to continue pushing against Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:40 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:57 pm The hilarious thing is that the title itself of the episode is "Showdown! The Miraculous Power of Unyielding Warriors", which pretty much tells us that Goku and Trunks did all of that only because of a literal miracle.

So in other words the entire episode is one big clusterfuck of Plot-induced Stupidity.
Does it? Because here's one of the definitions provided:
highly improbable and extraordinary and bringing very welcome consequences.
You can interpret it "highly improbable" as something that occurred solely due to chance, but one could also argue that the entire purpose behind fighting Zamasu is to overcome a god and fight for a better future and their ability to overcome Merged Zamasu by having faith in their power certainly falls in-line with bringing about "welcome consequences".

I don't see how this any way denies the implications that are made through the narrative with various statements of Saiyans having no limits in addition to Goku Black making it clear how Saiyans are able to grow progressively stronger and overcome their own limits. Hell, that's how Goku Black overpowered Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:50 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:40 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:57 pm The hilarious thing is that the title itself of the episode is "Showdown! The Miraculous Power of Unyielding Warriors", which pretty much tells us that Goku and Trunks did all of that only because of a literal miracle.

So in other words the entire episode is one big clusterfuck of Plot-induced Stupidity.
Does it? Because here's one of the definitions provided:
highly improbable and extraordinary and bringing very welcome consequences.
You can interpret it "highly improbable" as something that occurred solely due to chance, but one could also argue that the entire purpose behind fighting Zamasu is to overcome a god and fight for a better future and their ability to overcome Merged Zamasu by having faith in their power certainly falls in-line with bringing about "welcome consequences".

I don't see how this any way denies the implications that are made through the narrative with various statements of Saiyans having no limits in addition to Goku Black making it clear how Saiyans are able to grow progressively stronger and overcome their own limits. Hell, that's how Goku Black overpowered Goku and Vegeta.
Look at best you can argue that Goku got stronger due to Zamasu visibly expressing anger/effort/exhaustion, but you can't argue that for Vegeta and F. Trunks. Zamasu was pretty much still jobbing when he made that earlier Holy Wrath, he made it thinking he was going to fight only Trunks (who at that point was deemed fodder to FUTURE ZAMASU, as explained in the previous debate), and as per his expression he was still smirking and being casual. Trunks doesn't get a boost until the Sword of Friendship and Hope.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:00 am

So why can't the suppressed Jiren be stronger than Fused Zamasu and then him stronger than Kefla?

Blue Vegito could be on par with Jiren at full power or something, maybe less.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:23 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:50 am
Look at best you can argue that Goku got stronger due to Zamasu visibly expressing anger/effort/exhaustion, but you can't argue that for Vegeta and F. Trunks. Zamasu was pretty much still jobbing when he made that earlier Holy Wrath, he made it thinking he was going to fight only Trunks (who at that point was deemed fodder to FUTURE ZAMASU, as explained in the previous debate), and as per his expression he was still smirking and being casual. Trunks doesn't get a boost until the Sword of Friendship and Hope.
I don't see why that would be exclusive to Goku. The statements of Saiyans having limitless potential and needing to get stronger to fight Merged Zamasu is an all-encompassing statement. Let's not forget that Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta all had things they wanted to protect and strive for so their resolve and rage would naturally be at its peak. Goku fought to protect his family, Vegeta fought to protect Trunks and to provide a better future for him, and Trunks fought as a hero for his people and to right the wrongs he made.

Considering how Goku & Vegeta were completely helpless when Merged Zamasu was jobbing, there's no way Vegeta + Trunks could overcome a much stronger attack from Merged Zamasu unless they did get stronger. Unless of course, Trunks was many times stronger than Goku which wouldn't make sense since that'd make him stronger than Vegeta and we know that's not the case as Vegeta was the most one who had a significant advantage over Goku Black (before overcoming his limits). And that sort of defeats the purpose of father and son working together to overcome Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:39 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:23 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:50 am
Look at best you can argue that Goku got stronger due to Zamasu visibly expressing anger/effort/exhaustion, but you can't argue that for Vegeta and F. Trunks. Zamasu was pretty much still jobbing when he made that earlier Holy Wrath, he made it thinking he was going to fight only Trunks (who at that point was deemed fodder to FUTURE ZAMASU, as explained in the previous debate), and as per his expression he was still smirking and being casual. Trunks doesn't get a boost until the Sword of Friendship and Hope.
I don't see why that would be exclusive to Goku. The statements of Saiyans having limitless potential and needing to get stronger to fight Merged Zamasu is an all-encompassing statement. Let's not forget that Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta all had things they wanted to protect and strive for so their resolve and rage would naturally be at its peak. Goku fought to protect his family, Vegeta fought to protect Trunks and to provide a better future for him, and Trunks fought as a hero for his people and to right the wrongs he made.

Considering how Goku & Vegeta were completely helpless when Merged Zamasu was jobbing, there's no way Vegeta + Trunks could overcome a much stronger attack from Merged Zamasu unless they did get stronger. Unless of course, Trunks was many times stronger than Goku which wouldn't make sense since that'd make him stronger than Vegeta and we know that's not the case as Vegeta was the most one who had a significant advantage over Goku Black (before overcoming his limits). And that sort of defeats the purpose of father and son working together to overcome Zamasu.
Okay so they have all these statements but not a single person compares them to Black (the previous main antagonist and main source of power in the Fusion)? It's either writer's oversight or they aren't stronger. If they undeniably, explicitly wanted to make clear where these people stood in comparison to Black, they would have mentioned it (either Gowasu or Shin could've, since they were battle narrators/commentators).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:05 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't half of fused Zamasu "died" after the beam struggle ? Hence the flappy hand.
He temporarily "fixed" his body but started breaking down again + progressively getting weaker while fighting Vegito hence why Trunks was able to cut him. I don't have anime screenshot but this was heavily implied by U6 kaioshin dialogue if I remember.
Also, Black is pretty strong since he carried Fused zamasu to be as strong as Vegito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:39 am
Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:23 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:50 am
Look at best you can argue that Goku got stronger due to Zamasu visibly expressing anger/effort/exhaustion, but you can't argue that for Vegeta and F. Trunks. Zamasu was pretty much still jobbing when he made that earlier Holy Wrath, he made it thinking he was going to fight only Trunks (who at that point was deemed fodder to FUTURE ZAMASU, as explained in the previous debate), and as per his expression he was still smirking and being casual. Trunks doesn't get a boost until the Sword of Friendship and Hope.
I don't see why that would be exclusive to Goku. The statements of Saiyans having limitless potential and needing to get stronger to fight Merged Zamasu is an all-encompassing statement. Let's not forget that Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta all had things they wanted to protect and strive for so their resolve and rage would naturally be at its peak. Goku fought to protect his family, Vegeta fought to protect Trunks and to provide a better future for him, and Trunks fought as a hero for his people and to right the wrongs he made.

Considering how Goku & Vegeta were completely helpless when Merged Zamasu was jobbing, there's no way Vegeta + Trunks could overcome a much stronger attack from Merged Zamasu unless they did get stronger. Unless of course, Trunks was many times stronger than Goku which wouldn't make sense since that'd make him stronger than Vegeta and we know that's not the case as Vegeta was the most one who had a significant advantage over Goku Black (before overcoming his limits). And that sort of defeats the purpose of father and son working together to overcome Zamasu.
Okay so they have all these statements but not a single person compares them to Black (the previous main antagonist and main source of power in the Fusion)? It's either writer's oversight or they aren't stronger. If they undeniably, explicitly wanted to make clear where these people stood in comparison to Black, they would have mentioned it (either Gowasu or Shin could've, since they were battle narrators/commentators).
I'm not comparing them to Goku Black. I'm merely claiming that the Saiyans had to have gotten stronger than they once were before Goku Black and Zamasu merged.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:44 pm

Did Vegeta get a boost during his fight with Top or not?

Seeing as Blue Evolved Vegeta is supposed to be the equal of Kaio-ken (likely X20) Goku, then could that Goku have beaten Top had he fought him?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:36 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:44 pm Did Vegeta get a boost during his fight with Top or not?

Seeing as Blue Evolved Vegeta is supposed to be the equal of Kaio-ken (likely X20) Goku, then could that Goku have beaten Top had he fought him?
They were on par prior until SSJBE Vegeta received a rage boost and overtook Toppo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:25 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:44 pm Did Vegeta get a boost during his fight with Top or not?

Seeing as Blue Evolved Vegeta is supposed to be the equal of Kaio-ken (likely X20) Goku, then could that Goku have beaten Top had he fought him?
Yeah. Either a rage boost or unlocking the full power of the transformation since in the Moro arc SSBE gives a boost on par with UI Sign instead of just x20.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:37 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:25 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:44 pm Did Vegeta get a boost during his fight with Top or not?

Seeing as Blue Evolved Vegeta is supposed to be the equal of Kaio-ken (likely X20) Goku, then could that Goku have beaten Top had he fought him?
Yeah. Either a rage boost or unlocking the full power of the transformation since in the Moro arc SSBE gives a boost on par with UI Sign instead of just x20.
Of course, it's important to note that Goku didn't have a Kaioken equivalent in the manga since both him and Vegeta went with Complete SSB, which is just SSB overall in the anime.

Goku got the Ultra Instinct Sign, Vegeta got SSB Evolution.

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