Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

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GreatSaiyaman123
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Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:18 pm

While there's a mountain of reasons why Jiren wouldn't (and maybe can't) blow everyone out of the arena right away, manga Jiren goes out of his way to eliminate as few people as possible for some reason.

Unlike his anime counterpart, this Jiren actually takes action right from the beginning. But after knocking away Hit, this Jiren is stuck with Goku for the rest of the tournament for some reason. In chapter 36 Base Goku and Jiren do a starting contest before we cut to other fighters. Towards the end of this chapter, Damon and 17 break up their fight and Dyspo tells Jiren to retreat. Chapter 37 we don't see Jiren at all, but Goku is fighting Pride Troopers with Roshi before he goes help Freeza against Kale. 38 starts with Kale leaving Goku and Freeza to go on her rampage. When we see Goku again he's in base, telling Jiren to go help his friends. Jiren should literally be capable of glaring Goku into oblivion here.

The only times we see Goku and Jiren actually fighting is Jiren catching Goku's punch in 36 and casually clowning Goku in 39. If Goku could destroy Freeza and go come within 5 minutes on Namek, why is Goku unscathed, seemingly not even tired after over 15 minutes with Jiren? Unlike Hit the guy is actually immune to Goku's charm, and as I said earlier it's not like this is the Jiren who spent half the tournament sleeping medidating. He just stands there and says "give up Goku you can't do anything". Ugh.

Also, what's up with this? 17 and Freeza were literally standing on the border! You could've just pushed them!
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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:27 pm

Because Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Skar » Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:52 pm

It seems Toriyama didn't specify why Jiren didn't eliminate most of the other universes within the first minute. At this point, it's filling in the blanks with headcanon since we don't really get an explanation in either version other than it's more dramatic to go all out in the last few minutes.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:53 pm

IIRC, manga Jiren wasn't all that enthused about participating in the tournament even after Belmod revealed that there was a prize of being able to have any wish granted, insisting that he would immediately return to U11 in the event that any major injustice was happening against it's inhabitants. I guess Jiren's desire to be a do-gooder was just more important to him than going and fighting in a tournament.
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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:28 am

Because the manga's ToP was rushed. And rushed to extremes.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by nineko » Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:14 am

theherodjl wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:53 pminsisting that he would immediately return to U11 in the event that any major injustice was happening against it's inhabitants
Indeed, it actually would have been in his best interest to shorten the tournament as much as possible if he wanted to return home so much, like, "let's get this over with", and yet, as said above by others, he barely moved a finger until the very end. That indeed seemed weird to me, unless he genuinely didn't know the powers of the other fighters, and he wanted to play it safe. What if U7 had (a theoretically good version of) Moro in its lineup? Magic is always a pain to deal with.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Cipher » Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:17 am

…?

He eliminates a few fighters at the beginning—not wanting to waste unnecessary stamina, per his later words (and he withdraws from the action while the “invisible” Universe 4 fighters are active until he can ascertain what the situation is)—and otherwise he’s battling Hit and Goku the whole time. There’s also a bit of time when he and Goku are away from each other/he’s observing the action when Kale goes on her rampage.

The positioning on the #17-Freeza scene is a bit silly, but oh well.

If this is a comparative thing, anime Jiren literally goes to sleep while most of the field is still active, including fighters in a position to challenge his two strongest teammates in Dyspo and Toppo. I don’t think there’s really a comparison to be made for which handles its use of Jiren more clumsily.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:33 pm

As someone who has a fair few critical points to say about the manga's Tournament of Power, Jiren's characterisation isn't one of them. He never came off as stupid to me. He demonstrated great tactical intuition when fighting Hit and enormous restraint in order to match each individual opponent he fought, which justifies why he didn't just raise his ki to blow everyone else away -- he could've accidentally killed several of the weaker fighters.

You know what would've been cool? Seeing Jiren analyse some of the weaker fighters and wipe them out in a split second with some precise neck-chops. Would've been more satisfying than Kale doing it, at least. That way he wouldn't have wasted much stamina and he could have shown his dedication to getting the tournament over and done with so he can go back to protecting his universe. #17 and Freeza are similarly pragmatic so that'd be a nice parallel to draw between them.

The shot of Jiren backhanding #17 and Freeza is a good example of the underwhelming combat and lack of spatial consistency throughout the entire arc, not just limited to Jiren.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Trouser » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:53 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:27 pm Because Toyotaro is a terrible writer.
He's not that bad. I say he's at least mediocre. He had his chance to shine with Moro and Granolah, but he failed heavily. But he's not as bad as Toei.

It's Toriyama's fault, because he's lazy and he doesn't want to write normal script.
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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Geraldo » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:45 am

Trouser wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:53 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:27 pm Because Toyotaro is a terrible writer.
He's not that bad. I say he's at least mediocre. He had his chance to shine with Moro and Granolah, but he failed heavily. But he's not as bad as Toei.

It's Toriyama's fault, because he's lazy and he doesn't want to write normal script.
Let's not forget that Toyotaro has to work under the (probably bad) supervision of utter defeat Uchida.

I don't know why, but I feel that even if Toyotaro has a good idea, which Uchida doesn't like for his weird reasons, this idea won't get out of the storyboard or conversation, to the public.

I feel like the bad editing decisions of utter defeat Uchida took Dragon Ball for the nosedive "Super" was.

It could have been executed much better, even when we're dealing with the mediocre material that was given to us: 1. the revival, revenge and upgrades of Frieza over and over.
2. 'new' recolored Saiyan forms.
3. more Saiyans but from another universe.
4. "remember Future Trunks who made a few bucks in merchandise? Well, here he is again! And this time Goku's the villain, lol".
5. lack of exploration of the multiverse and readapting non-canonical materials through the contestants in the Tournament of Power.
6. a 'new' version of Broly and Paragus.
7. an ancient wizard who was claimed to be versatile in dark magic but eventually turned into old materials recycling bin.
8. more bullshit writing of Minus' Bardock for a year and a half.
9. no real development of new characters even if they sticked to the frontline for a whole saga.
10. now this seemingly subpar story.

All of these were done instead of saying: "Okay, so Kid Buu's power level was the highest for a villain in Universe 7, thus the climactic battle against him in the realm of the Kaioshins, and we had already met Beerus and Whis who explicitly stated that there are 12 more universes out there, let's explore them" as Dragon Ball Super's premise seemed like to me in April of 2015.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Alkiser » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:31 pm

Can you explain to me why you are Mayby blaming the editor Toyotaro for the problems with the manga?

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:42 pm

Trouser wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:53 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:27 pm Because Toyotaro is a terrible writer.
He's not that bad. I say he's at least mediocre. He had his chance to shine with Moro and Granolah, but he failed heavily. But he's not as bad as Toei.

It's Toriyama's fault, because he's lazy and he doesn't want to write normal script.
Toyo better than Toei?

Lmao.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Geraldo » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:37 pm

Alkiser wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:31 pm Can you explain to me why you are Mayby blaming the editor Toyotaro for the problems with the manga?
Hmmm.. Let's see, who cut the Granolah arc at once after he got mocked online for speaking about a "climax" for 8 months straight? utter defeat Uchida. Who edits the story? utter defeat Uchida.
Thanks for playing.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Jackalope89 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:41 pm

Yeah, the manga TOP was rushed and very underwhelming.

Not saying the anime was perfect during this arc, but the highs were MUCH higher.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:13 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:42 pm Toyo better than Toei?

Lmao.
Geraldo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:37 pm Hmmm.. Let's see, who cut the Granolah arc at once after he got mocked online for speaking about a "climax" for 8 months straight? utter defeat Uchida. Who edits the story? utter defeat Uchida.
Thanks for playing.
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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Aizamasu » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:00 am

I have always thought that Jiren didn’t want to be directly responsible for the destruction of multiple universes so he only eliminated people when it was necessary.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Geraldo » Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:23 am

Aizamasu wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:00 am I have always thought that Jiren didn’t want to be directly responsible for the destruction of multiple universes so he only eliminated people when it was necessary.
Toyotaro could have drawn a depiction of him saying so in one panel before continuing to fight Goku. For example: Belmod telepathically asking him why is he toying with his opponent, and Jiren could state that.

BTW Jiren easily taking out Monna from Universe 4 before she can attack a weaker team member of his could have been a good elimination that sadly we didn't get. Much better than if Cabba pulled another Super Saiyan 2 transformation out of nowhere just because so he could sell some merchandise.

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:18 pm

I think the fact that Jiren didn't just eliminate everyone right off the bat says enough about his desire to not have the erasure of several universes and countless innocents on his conscience. Jiren doesn't really talk all that much let alone convey his thoughts in a way that makes it clear what he is after. His silence as well as his seemingly-apathetic attitude might very well have been his way of expressing himself.
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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by Cipher » Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:25 pm

Geraldo wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:23 am
Aizamasu wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:00 am I have always thought that Jiren didn’t want to be directly responsible for the destruction of multiple universes so he only eliminated people when it was necessary.
Toyotaro could have drawn a depiction of him saying so in one panel before continuing to fight Goku. For example: Belmod telepathically asking him why is he toying with his opponent, and Jiren could state that.

BTW Jiren easily taking out Monna from Universe 4 before she can attack a weaker team member of his could have been a good elimination that sadly we didn't get. Much better than if Cabba pulled another Super Saiyan 2 transformation out of nowhere just because so he could sell some merchandise.
I don’t think we need things to be that obvious. He won’t even join the tournament until the wish is dangled over him and it’s on the condition he returns to U11 if there’s danger (I believe he even says he doesn’t want to be responsible for the erasure of other universes in his recruitment scene? Can’t check now).

Then when #17 seemingly blows himself up, he says he doesn’t want to see anyone else die even if the end result (their erasure) is the same. It’s clear he doesn’t like the idea of being directly responsible for anyone’s death or erasure.

He also gives his speech about never expending any more energy than absolutely necessary to beat a particular opponent—when Vegeta taunts him over whether or not he’s experienced fighting like his life is on the line—and has an overall cautious/pragmatic approach which more than justifies not instantly eliminating the field on its own. He could spend energy on that, only to be defeated by someone stronger once he’s expended too much effort. He’s cautious and gives his opponents credit.

This is all text, on the pages.

While I’m profoundly confused by a few things anime Jiren does—and his back and forth between superheroics (which he chose of his own volition? in that be ration) and outright taunting losing universes over their impending demise—that isn’t something that extends to the manga. I still like him on the whole in the anime, but that’s a version where I really have trouble lining all his motivations and personality traits up. (It feels … like what it was; a production hastily written with little communication between or oversight on rotating scriptwriters.)

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Re: Why is manga Jiren so stupid?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:52 pm

Anime Jiren is a (usually)silent dick who fights for justice... Or at least to beat up evildoers.

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