"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Terez]

I do wonder if Zamasu 'dying' has something to do with Black. Some on Reddit thinks Zamasu's ghost possesses Goku to become Black, hence the name of the episode.

I doubt it though since Zamasu hates Goku's guts as much as Freeza and him taking Goku's body makes little sense. He would probably make Goku committee sucide out of spite. Plus, Black praising Goku every other sentence and calls him his aspiration. There is also Future Zamasu who absolutely despises Goku as much as present Zamasu.

Zamas is going to get immortality at the end of tomorrow's episode or the beginning of the one after that, so Beerus "destroying" Zamas in episode 60(or 61? can't recall) obviously won't mean the death of Zamas, as he's immortal and would only appear to be destroyed, before inevitably coming back.

When I first saw the summaries, my initial thought was that he was going to be a ghost, like LightBing mentioned and has apparently been discussed over on Reddit and then posses Goku's body or something.
But I think the way it's implied that the Zamas, Goku and co. lost to in Trunks' timeline is also the one Goku fought in the main timeline, makes that theory non-sensical, so I'm intrigued to see, how this will pan out.

I think I have been pushing this theory on Reddit more than anyone (mainly here), so I figured I'd chime in here.

I don't think there's any evidence that the Zamasu in Trunks's timeline has a personal hatred for Goku. I just watched the last episode yet again, and in the beginning he says he came there to meet Goku. So he's never even met Goku before. (We can't say the same for Black.) Everything he knows about Goku comes from Black; he wants to destroy Goku because he had the audacity to challenge the gods. (This is exactly what he says.) And he probably thinks he should be the one to do it because he's the one with the immortal body.

It goes like this:

1. Zamasu wishes for immortality using the SDBs.
2. Zamasu kills Gowasu.
3. Beerus destroys Zamasu's body as punishment, not knowing that Zamasu has wished for immortality.
4. Zamasu's spirit is then floating around, still immortal but without his body.
5. Zamasu steals Goku's body, becoming Black.
6. Black flees the wrath of Beerus using a green time ring, which takes him to Trunks's timeline.
7. Black goes to U10 to find the Zamasu native to that timeline. He tells him all about Goku and the Saiyans to explain why he's in that body.
8. The Zamasu of Trunks's timeline then goes to U6/U7 to use the SDBs and wish for his own immortality.
9. Zamasu and Black begin purging planets.
10. Black eventually ends up on Earth, where he meets Trunks, and then he's eventually pulled into his own past where he inadvertently starts the chain of events that leads to 1.

As to why anyone would believe that Beerus killing Zamasu would cause events to correct themselves in Trunks's timeline, perhaps Beerus just thinks overly highly of his god of destruction powers, believing he has the power to break a causal loop. I suspect that Whis will at least question this logic. But Beerus doesn't know that Zamasu is still "alive".

Trunks, who has more experience with time travel than all of them, doesn't want to get his hopes up. And indeed, when he goes back to his time, he'll discover that Black and Zamasu are still very much alive, because everything that they tried to do to prevent events from happening actually caused those events to happen. That's the nature of the predestination paradox.

If they did manage to change events, that would simply create another timeline. But with the way things are going, it doesn't look like they're going to be able to change the past of Trunks's timeline in any way; they will simply fulfill that past without knowing that's what they're doing. So no new timeline is necessary; everything is in a causal loop.

It was mentioned before that Black's time ring is silver, and this point was never addressed again, so I figured I'd point out that Black's ring pulsed green when he was being pulled back into Trunks's timeline through the distortion portal. I posted some screenshots here.

[alakazam^]

I don't think there's any evidence that the Zamasu in Trunks's timeline has a personal hatred for Goku. I just watched the last episode yet again, and in the beginning he says he came there to meet Goku. So he's never even met Goku before. (We can't say the same for Black.) Everything he knows about Goku comes from Black; he wants to destroy Goku because he had the audacity to challenge the gods. (This is exactly what he says.) And he probably thinks he should be the one to do it because he's the one with the immortal body.

It goes like this:

1. Zamasu wishes for immortality using the SDBs.
2. Zamasu kills Gowasu.
3. Beerus destroys Zamasu's body as punishment, not knowing that Zamasu has wished for immortality.
4. Zamasu's spirit is then floating around, still immortal but without his body.
5. Zamasu steals Goku's body, becoming Black.
6. Black flees the wrath of Beerus using a green time ring, which takes him to Trunks's timeline.
7. Black goes to U10 to find the Zamasu native to that timeline. He tells him all about Goku and the Saiyans to explain why he's in that body.
8. The Zamasu of Trunks's timeline then goes to U6/U7 to use the SDBs and wish for his own immortality.
9. Zamasu and Black begin purging planets.
10. Black eventually ends up on Earth, where he meets Trunks, and then he's eventually pulled into his own past where he inadvertently starts the chain of events that leads to 1.

As to why anyone would believe that Beerus killing Zamasu would cause events to correct themselves in Trunks's timeline, perhaps Beerus just thinks overly highly of his god of destruction powers, believing he has the power to break a causal loop. I suspect that Whis will at least question this logic. But Beerus doesn't know that Zamasu is still "alive".

Trunks, who has more experience with time travel than all of them, doesn't want to get his hopes up. And indeed, when he goes back to his time, he'll discover that Black and Zamasu are still very much alive, because everything that they tried to do to prevent events from happening actually caused those events to happen. That's the nature of the predestination paradox.

If they did manage to change events, that would simply create another timeline. But with the way things are going, it doesn't look like they're going to be able to change the past of Trunks's timeline in any way; they will simply fulfill that past without knowing that's what they're doing. So no new timeline is necessary; everything is in a causal loop.

It was mentioned before that Black's time ring is silver, and this point was never addressed again, so I figured I'd point out that Black's ring pulsed green when he was being pulled back into Trunks's timeline through the distortion portal. I posted some screenshots here.

I also thought that Black was present Zamasu that informed future Zamasu of stuff that happened, but your logic doesn't really work because Black isn't immortal, he doesn't heal from his injuries. Granted, he hasn't been stabbed or the such but he got bruised, fatigued, and destroyed (if we go the Beers route).

I don't see any green on his ring but this isn't a problem because it could be a ring borrowed by future Zamasu for whatever purpose.

Also, both of them know Vegeta, when, up to now, Zamasu hasn't met him.

[Terez]

I also thought that Black was present Zamasu that informed future Zamasu of stuff that happened, but your logic doesn't really work because Black isn't immortal, he doesn't heal from his injuries. Granted, he hasn't been stabbed or the such but he got bruised, fatigued, and destroyed (if we go the Beers route).

That's because Goku's body isn't immortal. Presumably Beerus has some way of destroying Zamasu's body permanently even though he's wished for immortality, otherwise when he killed Zamasu, even if he hadn't wished for immortality, he'd still be able to hang out in Otherworld as we've seen with Kaiô and Rou Kaiôshin. So Beerus would have taken that into account. But he couldn't destroy Zamasu's soul, and thus we get Black.

I don't see any green on his ring but this isn't a problem because it could be a ring borrowed by future Zamasu for whatever purpose.

I agree it's not a problem, but did you look at the screenshots I posted? It's clearly flashing green.

Edit: one example for the thread:

Also, both of them know Vegeta, when, up to now, Zamasu hasn't met him.

Zamasu doesn't show any signs of having met him before, though. He knows who he is only from what he sees in front of him and from whatever Black has told him. Black, on the other hand, recognized him on sight when he was pulled into his own past. He hasn't yet met Vegeta in the main timeline, but we can be pretty sure that he will before too long.

[Doctor.]

That theory doesn't make sense because Black didn't know how to use the time ring and he was surprised when it activated. Zamasu would know all about it.

[Terez]

That theory doesn't make sense because Black didn't know how to use the time ring and he was surprised when it activated. Zamasu would know all about it.

He was only surprised that it reacted with the space-time distortion caused by Trunks's time machine. We can be pretty sure that's never happened to him before, and there's no reason he should have known it was possible.

[Cipher]

It goes like this:

1. Zamasu wishes for immortality using the SDBs.
2. Zamasu kills Gowasu.
3. Beerus destroys Zamasu's body as punishment, not knowing that Zamasu has wished for immortality.
4. Zamasu's spirit is then floating around, still immortal but without his body.
5. Zamasu steals Goku's body, becoming Black.
6. Black flees the wrath of Beerus using a green time ring, which takes him to Trunks's timeline.
7. Black goes to U10 to find the Zamasu native to that timeline. He tells him all about Goku and the Saiyans to explain why he's in that body.
8. The Zamasu of Trunks's timeline then goes to U6/U7 to use the SDBs and wish for his own immortality.
9. Zamasu and Black begin purging planets.
10. Black eventually ends up on Earth, where he meets Trunks, and then he's eventually pulled into his own past where he inadvertently starts the chain of events that leads to 1.

I love 99 percent of this theory. The only bits that get me are:

1) Black seems eager to kill Goku in episode 57, though he'd have to know -- in that scenario -- that this Goku would have come from a time prior to the point he possessed him, which you'd think would give him some pause.

2) That's a lot of blood on Goku's hands for the rest of the series, even if he's not in control of his body.

That theory doesn't make sense because Black didn't know how to use the time ring and he was surprised when it activated. Zamasu would know all about it.

Black knows how to use the time ring. He's just surprised at its behavior when he follows Trunks into the past, something the ring isn't supposed to allow.

[Terez]

I love 99 percent of this theory.

I liked your first post better.

The only bits that get me are:

1) Black seems eager to kill Goku in episode 57, though he'd have to know -- in that scenario -- that this Goku would have come from a time prior to the point he possessed him, which you'd think would give him some pause.

He probably understands that killing Goku would, at worst, create an alternate timeline. His past can't be changed that easily.

2) That's a lot of blood on Goku's hands for the rest of the series, even if he's not in control of his body.

Sure, but I don't think this is a problem. We all know it's not actually Goku; this is no more problematic than it was before when Black just looked like Goku. And besides, he wouldn't be the only person in the main cast (*cough* Vegeta, Buu) to have a lot of blood on his hands. He'd just be the only one with an excuse. And he'd probably try to bring all those people back to life. (Not sure this will happen because I suspect Zen-chan will want to destroy that timeline.)

[alakazam^]

That's because Goku's body isn't immortal. Presumably Beerus has some way of destroying Zamasu's body permanently even though he's wished for immortality, otherwise when he killed Zamasu, even if he hadn't wished for immortality, he'd still be able to hang out in Otherworld as we've seen with Kaiô and Rou Kaiôshin. So Beerus would have taken that into account. But he couldn't destroy Zamasu's soul, and thus we get Black.

It's not impossible, I guess, but having an immortal body shouldn't work like that, right? I mean, he even presummably used the Super Dragon Balls for that and they're perfect so Beers power should be no issue. We did have them talking about Zen'ou being able to wipe one's existence, though.

I agree it's not a problem, but did you look at the screenshots I posted? It's clearly flashing green.

I did, it only seemed green in the 5th screenshot. But regardless, it should be green always.

Zamasu doesn't show any signs of having met him before, though. He knows who he is only from what he sees in front of him and from whatever Black has told him. Black, on the other hand, recognized him on sight when he was pulled into his own past. He hasn't yet met Vegeta in the main timeline, but we can be pretty sure that he will before too long.

From what we know, Beers will go to destroy him just with Whis so he doesn't have a chance to see Vegeta until the presumably possession of Goku, which could work. Zamasu didn't show any sign to have met him before but he sure enough didn't act as to confirming that man was Vegeta, he just treated him like he was.

[Cipher]

I liked your first post better.

Ha! Sorry. Thought about it a bit more after deleting my initial reaction.

Sure, but I don't think this is a problem. We all know it's not actually Goku; this is no more problematic than it was before when Black just looked like Goku. And besides, he wouldn't be the only person in the main cast (*cough* Vegeta, Buu) to have a lot of blood on his hands. He'd just be the only one with an excuse. And he'd probably try to bring all those people back to life. (Not sure this will happen because I suspect Zen-chan will want to destroy that timeline.)

Totally fair. The redemption of Vegeta and Boo (while never having them fully repent for their past actions), and the possibility everyone will be revived are exactly why I don't find it completely implausible. It's not enormously out of line with elements the series has simply moved on from before.

Though it still strikes me as a bit uncharacteristically dark.

[Terez]

That's because Goku's body isn't immortal. Presumably Beerus has some way of destroying Zamasu's body permanently even though he's wished for immortality, otherwise when he killed Zamasu, even if he hadn't wished for immortality, he'd still be able to hang out in Otherworld as we've seen with Kaiô and Rou Kaiôshin. So Beerus would have taken that into account. But he couldn't destroy Zamasu's soul, and thus we get Black.

It's not impossible, I guess, but having an immortal body shouldn't work like that, right? I mean, he even presummably used the Super Dragon Balls for that and they're perfect so Beers power should be no issue. We did have them talking about Zen'ou being able to wipe one's existence, though.

Yeah, it definitely goes against how you would assume immortality works, but there was no other good reason for them to squeeze in his use of the SDBs, because they really did squeeze it in. It's all happening in quite the rush. So the best explanation I can come up with is that Beerus destroyed him with the intention of making it permanent so Zamasu would not continue to exist in Otherworld, and that this somehow resulted in Zamasu's immortal soul being separated from his body.

I agree it's not a problem, but did you look at the screenshots I posted? It's clearly flashing green.

I did, it only seemed green in the 5th screenshot. But regardless, it should be green always.

My best guess is that the green time rings turn silver when you reach the timeline they represent and then they turn silver. So Black's ring was flashing green while the portal was open, but then when the portal closed it returned to silver.

[Khin]

From what we know, Beers will go to destroy him just with Whis so he doesn't have a chance to see Vegeta until the presumably possession of Goku, which could work. Zamasu didn't show any sign to have met him before but he sure enough didn't act as to confirming that man was Vegeta, he just treated him like he was.

The summary doesn't say that only Whis and Beerus will go to Universe 10. It says Goku and co finds out that Gowasu's life is in jeopardy then immediately heads to Universe 10, so perhaps Vegeta joins as well.

[Terez]

Sure, but I don't think this is a problem. We all know it's not actually Goku; this is no more problematic than it was before when Black just looked like Goku. And besides, he wouldn't be the only person in the main cast (*cough* Vegeta, Buu) to have a lot of blood on his hands. He'd just be the only one with an excuse. And he'd probably try to bring all those people back to life. (Not sure this will happen because I suspect Zen-chan will want to destroy that timeline.)

Totally fair. The redemption of Vegeta and Boo (while never having them fully repent for their past actions), and the possibility everyone will be revived are exactly why I don't find it completely implausible. It's not enormously out of line with elements the series has simply moved on from before.

Though it still strikes me as a bit uncharacteristically dark.

I know what you mean but to me it doesn't seem all that different from Goku vs Majin Vegeta which led to Buu being released. That was pretty dark, and that darkness is one of the fans' favorite aspects of the series. We like it when Goku shows a dark side; everyone wants an evil Goku, and this is probably the closest they can get to that without making it out of character.

From what we know, Beers will go to destroy him just with Whis so he doesn't have a chance to see Vegeta until the presumably possession of Goku, which could work. Zamasu didn't show any sign to have met him before but he sure enough didn't act as to confirming that man was Vegeta, he just treated him like he was.

They mentioned Goku and co heading to Universe 10, so perhaps Vegeta will join as well. The summary doesn't say that only Whis and Beerus will go to Universe 10.

You'd think Whis would be smart enough to leave Goku behind, considering Black. But apparently Goku isn't going to get possessed on that trip anyway since presumably Trunks returns to his own timeline (alone? surely not) before that happens.

[Doctor.]

There's a few other problems with the theory.

1. How does Black get stronger through pain?
2. Why couldn't he access SSR from the start? Zamasu already knew about Blue. Also why does he act surprised when he sees SS2 for the first time (he says "So this is the power of Super Saiyan Son Goku...)?

[Terez]

. How does Black get stronger through pain?

I don't think it's the pain, specifically, that makes him stronger. My theory is that he didn't get Goku's memories when he stole his body, but those memories left a vague imprint of sorts that can be activated through the actual experience of fighting Goku in Goku's body. That would partially answer your question below.

2. Why couldn't he access SSR from the start? Zamasu already knew about Blue. Also why does he act surprised when he sees SS2 for the first time (he says "So this is the power of Super Saiyan Son Goku...)?

He's talking about the fact that he is now experiencing that power for himself. This is really clear in the episode; when he says it, he clenches and unclenches his fists, looking at them in wonder. He's not surprised to see that power in Goku; he's surprised to feel it for himself.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Isn't it established Zamasu's and Black's Ki are different...? Black cannot be present Zamasu. Also surely if Zamasu does possess Goku then he'd have access to all of Goku's power? It also doesn't explain how Black keeps getting stronger is all he is just Zamasu in Goku's body. Then about the clothes, why does he get rid of Goku's clothes and get new ones? When does he do this?

Furthermore as proved in the last episode immortality means his body cannot be harmed as we saw Trunks stab him and nothing, no wound.

Interesting enough theory but a lot of holes.

[dbzfan7]

Didn't Black start off weaker, get his ass kicked, but then incorporate Goku's power into himself somehow to make himself way stronger? That's what I got out of it while watching. I kinda liked that idea as it's a completely weird and different way to grow more powerful. I don't think he always had SSJR, and I think he only grew that strong after somehow incorporating Goku's power into his body or whatever.

[Terez]

Isn't it established Zamsu's and Black's Ki are different...?

Early on, Beerus says that Black's ki feels like "Son Goku, yet not Son Goku". It's only after that that Whis realizes it was similar to Zamasu's ki. The logical explanation is that his ki is a mixture of Zamasu and Goku.

Also surely if Zamasu does possess Goku then he'd have access to all of Goku's power?

Not necessarily. See Ginyu.

It also doesn't explain how Black keeps getting stronger is all he is just Zamasu in Goku's body.

See my post above.

Then about the clothes, why does he get rid of Goku's clothes and get new ones? When does he do this?

Why wouldn't he get new clothes?

Furthermore as proved in the last episode immortality means his body cannot be harmed as we saw Trunks stab him and nothing, no wound.

As I said above, presumably Beerus tries to destroy his body permanently so that he won't continue to exist in Otherworld (or else what would be the point of killing him?), and this leads to his immortal soul being separated from his body.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Ehh still not buying that it's present day Goku being possessed. Why would Future Zamasu want to kill Goku then? He never met him. Why would Black who in this theory is present Zamasu agree to that sort of deal. Hell why would Black even need to contact his future self. He doesn't need to, seems entirely capable on his own.

At most I can see if there is a possession type deal it'd be Goku's future dead body.

[Terez]

Why would Future Zamasu want to kill Goku then? He never met him.

He said he never met him. How does this theory change that? He also said why he wants to kill him: because he had the audacity to challenge the gods. Presumably he learned about that from Black, who would have had to explain why he was in Goku's body.

Why would Black who in this theory is present Zamasu agree to that sort of deal.

It appears to be a fairly loose deal in any case, since they eventually agreed to destroy him together, but I'm guessing it's because Zamasu has the immortal body and the body of a god. This is important to Zamasu (both of them, presumably), but not important enough that they couldn't agree to work together to kill him in the end.

Hell why would Black even need to contact his future self. He doesn't need to, seems entirely capable on his own.

Why not? The purging work will go a lot quicker if he has help.

At most I can see if there is a possession type deal it'd be Goku's future dead body.

What reason would he have to seek Goku out in the first place? And why would he know of Vegeta, who doesn't exist in Otherworld in that timeline? Why would he know of Beerus?

[kinisking]

I'm not even sure if this is what you guys are talking about but I think the Zamasu we saw in Future Trunks timeline, is the Zamasu from our present time line. He's just from further down our timeline. So he's gotten the immortality, killed Zamasu and then traveled to the same point as Goku and Vegeta. I don't think he's native to FT timeline.