"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:13 pm

kinisking wrote:I'm not even sure if this is what you guys are talking about but I think the Zamasu we saw in Future Trunks timeline, is the Zamasu from our present time line. He's just from further down our timeline. So he's gotten the immortality, killed Zamasu and then traveled to the same point as Goku and Vegeta. I don't think he's native to FT timeline.
Not exactly, and the evidence doesn't quite match up for that to be true. For one thing, the Zamasu in Trunks's timeline said he came to the battlefield to meet Goku. He's never met him before. For another thing, Black is the one who recognized Vegeta and Beerus, neither of whom exist in that timeline. And finally, we know from the summaries that Beerus is going to destroy Zamasu's body in the main timeline, so that provides the impetus to steal Goku's body. All signs point to the Zamasu in Trunks's timeline being native to that timeline, and he would have wished for his own immortality there (which is probably what brought them to U7 in the first place).

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10283
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:23 pm

Black has been shown to do a majority of the purging though. Hell probably all of it since Trunks was surprised as any to see Zamasu in the future. Doesn't make to contact his future self at all. In fact wouldn't it be quite risky to contact your future self? Also why would Black travel specifically to Trunks future timeline? The only reason would be because Goku in Trunks timeline is dead. But even then can the time rings go into alternative futures? The present day future will be a lot different to Trunks.

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:25 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Black has been shown to do a majority of the purging though.
How so? We know he's been doing the purging on Earth, and a few other planets. Presumably Zamasu is working on other planets.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:In fact wouldn't it be quite risky to contact your future self?
How so?
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Also why would Black travel specifically to Trunks future timeline?
I'm guessing he just picked one randomly. He was probably trying to escape the wrath of Beerus.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:28 pm

Why would Black aka Present Zamasu promise Future Zamasu that he'd let HIM kill Goku when present Zamasu should be the one with the bigger grudge? Black doesn't even say "I want to kill Son Goku", he says his body wants him.

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:31 pm

Doctor. wrote:Why would Black aka Present Zamasu promise Future Zamasu that he'd let HIM kill Goku when present Zamasu should be the one with the bigger grudge? Black doesn't even say "I want to kill Son Goku, he says his body wants him".
I commented on this before, but I suspect it's because Zamasu is the one with the immortal body of a god, which is an important thing to them. But in the end, they were able to agree to attack him together; I don't think it's a huge deal to either one of them who kills him, though both of them want to see him dead because he had the audacity to challenge the gods.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:33 pm

Terez wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Why would Black aka Present Zamasu promise Future Zamasu that he'd let HIM kill Goku when present Zamasu should be the one with the bigger grudge? Black doesn't even say "I want to kill Son Goku, he says his body wants him".
I commented on this before, but I suspect it's because Zamasu is the one with the immortal body of a god, which is an important thing to them. But in the end, they were able to agree to attack him together; I don't think it's a huge deal to either one of them who kills him, though both of them want to see him dead because he had the audacity to challenge the gods.
Yes, but future Zamasu shouldn't even be that mad at Goku. Trunks challenged the Gods. Vegeta challenged the Gods. Future Zamasu has a bigger grudge on Goku.

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:37 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Terez wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Why would Black aka Present Zamasu promise Future Zamasu that he'd let HIM kill Goku when present Zamasu should be the one with the bigger grudge? Black doesn't even say "I want to kill Son Goku, he says his body wants him".
I commented on this before, but I suspect it's because Zamasu is the one with the immortal body of a god, which is an important thing to them. But in the end, they were able to agree to attack him together; I don't think it's a huge deal to either one of them who kills him, though both of them want to see him dead because he had the audacity to challenge the gods.
Yes, but future Zamasu shouldn't even be that mad at Goku. Trunks challenged the Gods. Vegeta challenged the Gods. Future Zamasu has a bigger grudge on Goku.
He didn't really seem to have a huge grudge to me. And it was established that he'd never met Goku before, so everything he knows about Goku has to come from Black.

All Trunks did was defend his planet from Black. (And I'm not entirely sure whether Black still sees himself as a god; it seems to be ambiguous.) Goku, on the other hand, challenged Zamasu to a fight (on the sacred Kaiôshin planet) for no other reason than to prove his strength. Zamasu probably assumed he'd done the same with Beerus. That's an entirely different kind of audacity than defending your planet.

Alee9977
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:53 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Alee9977 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:51 pm

Terez wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Terez wrote: I commented on this before, but I suspect it's because Zamasu is the one with the immortal body of a god, which is an important thing to them. But in the end, they were able to agree to attack him together; I don't think it's a huge deal to either one of them who kills him, though both of them want to see him dead because he had the audacity to challenge the gods.
Yes, but future Zamasu shouldn't even be that mad at Goku. Trunks challenged the Gods. Vegeta challenged the Gods. Future Zamasu has a bigger grudge on Goku.
He didn't really seem to have a huge grudge to me. And it was established that he'd never met Goku before, so everything he knows about Goku has to come from Black.

All Trunks did was defend his planet from Black. (And I'm not entirely sure whether Black still sees himself as a god; it seems to be ambiguous.) Goku, on the other hand, challenged Zamasu to a fight (on the sacred Kaiôshin planet) for no other reason than to prove his strength. Zamasu probably assumed he'd done the same with Beerus. That's an entirely different kind of audacity than defending your planet.
Your theory is interesting but doesn't seem to be the case.
Why would Present Zamasu with Goku's body travel exactly to Trunks' timeline? Black is not inmortal, as we saw before, he can be damaged and if he really is immortal he wouldn't suffer any injuries, also, his body will never be destroyed. We know Zamasu is inmortal, Trunks stabbed him with his sword and he recovered from it immediatly.
For me, Black is a completely new character in Goku's body, we still have like 5 weeks until we know who the hell Black is, so it's interesting to make our own theories like this one, although we never guess what is happening :D .

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:56 pm

Alee9977 wrote:Why would Present Zamasu with Goku's body travel exactly to Trunks' timeline?
I assume his main motive was to escape the main timeline and the wrath of Beerus. Beyond that, since he didn't know anything about the other universes, he probably just picked one randomly.
Alee9977 wrote:Black is not inmortal, as we saw before, he can be damaged and if he really is immortal he wouldn't suffer any injuries, also, his body will never be destroyed.
Goku's body is not immortal, but presumably Zamasu's soul is immortal. As I said upthread, I suspect Beerus destroyed his body in such a way that he wouldn't get to keep it in Otherworld, because that would have been the case even if he hadn't wished for immortality. Beerus would have taken that into account, or there would have been little point in killing him. But Beerus probably doesn't know he wished for immortality using the SDBs and he assumes that he destroyed Zamasu's soul altogether, while in reality Zamasu's spirit is hanging around waiting for the opportunity to steal Goku's body.

IMO, it has been obvious since the green time rings were introduced that they were going for a predestination paradox of some kind. Everything the characters try to do to fight Black actually serves to make him exist in the first place. Eventually we'll catch up to the moment when Black and Trunks meet for the first time, and that's when things will get real.

User avatar
sailorspazz
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1208
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: ZamaBlack love shack
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sailorspazz » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:18 pm

Terez wrote:And it was established that he'd never met Goku before, so everything he knows about Goku has to come from Black.
Not necessarily...the verb Zamasu used when talking about meeting Gokuu ("au") doesn't exclusively refer to a first encounter; his line could've also been translated as "I came to see you", rather than "meet" (I suppose the translation group chose "meet" to mean more like "meet up"). In other words, the phrase used in Japanese doesn't tell us if it's the first time they've met or not, so we can't assume from that alone if that Zamasu has met Gokuu before. I do think the theory you put out has some merit, but just wanted to point out that this particular conclusion isn't necessarily true.
A veteran fan-girl past her prime
Host of Fujoshi Trash Talk at Anibros Creative podcast network
Twitter | Tumblr | Fanfics at fanfiction.net and ao3 | DeviantArt | YouTube

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:21 pm

sailorspazz wrote:
Terez wrote:And it was established that he'd never met Goku before, so everything he knows about Goku has to come from Black.
Not necessarily...the verb Zamasu used when talking about meeting Gokuu ("au") doesn't exclusively refer to a first encounter; his line could've also been translated as "I came to see you", rather than "meet" (I suppose the translation group chose "meet" to mean more like "meet up"). In other words, the phrase used in Japanese doesn't tell us if it's the first time they've met or not, so we can't assume from that alone if that Zamasu has met Gokuu before. I do think like the theory you put out, but just wanted to point out that this particular conclusion isn't necessarily true.
Thanks for that; I always appreciate commentary on the translation. This fits a little better with their approach to the rest of the episode, where nothing was definitively ruled out. (Zamasu certainly doesn't make any references to their earlier encounters.)

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4982
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:31 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Terez wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Why would Black aka Present Zamasu promise Future Zamasu that he'd let HIM kill Goku when present Zamasu should be the one with the bigger grudge? Black doesn't even say "I want to kill Son Goku, he says his body wants him".
I commented on this before, but I suspect it's because Zamasu is the one with the immortal body of a god, which is an important thing to them. But in the end, they were able to agree to attack him together; I don't think it's a huge deal to either one of them who kills him, though both of them want to see him dead because he had the audacity to challenge the gods.
Yes, but future Zamasu shouldn't even be that mad at Goku. Trunks challenged the Gods. Vegeta challenged the Gods. Future Zamasu has a bigger grudge on Goku.
Yeah I'm not even sure why he would bother with Future Zamasu at all. He would already know about the Dragonballs so could do another wish for an eternal body. Then Gowasu would still be alive so he would have to go through the trouble of both killing him and convincing Zamasu all while hoping his plan as the uncovered. Then I'm not sure why he would go specifically to universe 7 rather than wiping things out in his own universe when Beerus was the one destroyed him in the first time.

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:37 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Terez wrote: I commented on this before, but I suspect it's because Zamasu is the one with the immortal body of a god, which is an important thing to them. But in the end, they were able to agree to attack him together; I don't think it's a huge deal to either one of them who kills him, though both of them want to see him dead because he had the audacity to challenge the gods.
Yes, but future Zamasu shouldn't even be that mad at Goku. Trunks challenged the Gods. Vegeta challenged the Gods. Future Zamasu has a bigger grudge on Goku.
Yeah I'm not even sure why he would bother with Future Zamasu at all. He would already know about the Dragonballs so could do another wish for an eternal body. Then Gowasu would still be alive so he would have to go through the trouble of both killing him and convincing Zamasu. Then I'm not sure why he would go specifically to universe 7 rather than wiping things out in his own universe when Beerus was the one destroyed him in the first time.
He might have tried to wish for Goku's body to be immortal and found that it couldn't be granted for whatever reason, maybe because his soul had already been wished immortal and because he lost the body that was tied to his soul.

I'm assuming he sought out the other Zamasu to help with his human elimination plan, since they are kindred spirits after all. That Zamasu was probably already having similar thoughts; they are essentially the same person, and from the perspective of beings that live thousands of years, it hasn't been all that long since their timelines diverged, so unlike the two versions of Trunks, most of their memories would be exactly the same. Killing Gowasu again is no problem.

The reason they went to U7 is presumably because that's where the super dragon balls are. And according to the manga, Beerus is probably dead in that timeline because Kaiôshin died in the fight against Dabura. That also might have made U7 an easy target for planet-purging; no one is watching over U7, unless new Kaiôshin and Hakaishin have been appointed.

Alee9977
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:53 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Alee9977 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:47 pm

Terez wrote:
Alee9977 wrote:Why would Present Zamasu with Goku's body travel exactly to Trunks' timeline?
I assume his main motive was to escape the main timeline and the wrath of Beerus. Beyond that, since he didn't know anything about the other universes, he probably just picked one randomly.
Alee9977 wrote:Black is not inmortal, as we saw before, he can be damaged and if he really is immortal he wouldn't suffer any injuries, also, his body will never be destroyed.
Goku's body is not immortal, but presumably Zamasu's soul is immortal. As I said upthread, I suspect Beerus destroyed his body in such a way that he wouldn't get to keep it in Otherworld, because that would have been the case even if he hadn't wished for immortality. Beerus would have taken that into account, or there would have been little point in killing him. But Beerus probably doesn't know he wished for immortality using the SDBs and he assumes that he destroyed Zamasu's soul altogether, while in reality Zamasu's spirit is hanging around waiting for the opportunity to steal Goku's body.

IMO, it has been obvious since the green time rings were introduced that they were going for a predestination paradox of some kind. Everything the characters try to do to fight Black actually serves to make him exist in the first place. Eventually we'll catch up to the moment when Black and Trunks meet for the first time, and that's when things will get real.
That's not how immortality works in the Dragon Ball universe. In the entire franchise, I think Zamasu is the first immortal character and that's mean he will never die, including his own body.
And that's not how time travel works either, if you travel to the past or the future, you are travelling to the same timeline unless you do something that was never done, then you are creating a new timeline, it's almost impossible for Zamasu to travel to that future from the main timeline, the only way Trunks was able to do it was when he created the main timeline and never touched the configuration of the time machine ever again, and that applies to when he wants to go to the past and return to the future. Black was able to follow Trunks just because the space-time hole that was left by the time machine.

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:07 pm

Alee9977 wrote:That's not how immortality works in the Dragon Ball universe. In the entire franchise, I think Zamasu is the first immortal character and that's mean he will never die, including his own body.
As I mentioned before, when Kaiôshin die, they still exist in Otherworld. We saw this with Kaiô and Rou Kaiôshin. Beerus would have known that, and presumably he would have taken that into account. My guess is that he did something that was supposed to destroy Zamasu's soul permanently, or else there would have been no point in killing him, but it didn't work because Zamasu had wished for immortality. But Beerus didn't know that, so when he did manage to destroy Zamasu's body, he thought he was successful.
Alee9977 wrote:And that's not how time travel works either, if you travel to the past or the future, you are travelling to the same timeline unless you do something that was never done, then you are creating a new timeline...
That's how it has worked in the past, but this is something new.

The past has already happened; it is set in stone and you cannot change it. This remains true.

When you travel to the past and change something, this necessitates a new timeline because the past cannot be changed.

Once a new timeline is created, it runs parallel to the original timeline, but theoretically you can travel to any point on a parallel timeline, regardless of the starting point in your own timeline. Trunks demonstrated this several times. The first trip he made, to his actual past, was 20 years in the past. This time, it was 17.

Then, when he returned 3 years after his first trip to fight the androids, he was only in his timeline for about 8 months, which is how long it took to refuel the time machine. (He told Goku he would be back as soon as the time machine was refueled, or he might not survive long enough to return.) Trunks said he would have gone back further in time, to make sure he got there before the androids arrived, but the only reason he didn't was because he didn't have enough fuel to go back that far and make it back home again. He didn't mention any limitations on the time machine's ability to target that timeline.

Theoretically, you can travel between timelines without necessitating a new timeline. Trunks has done this several times. However, it is possible to create conflict, which is what we see here with Black and Zamasu.

If Trunks had actually changed anything about Zamasu's past when he traveled to the main timeline, then that would have necessitated a new timeline. But instead, what's happening here is that everything he does to try to fight Black (or to prevent Zamasu from becoming Black) is actually fulfilling or causing the events of Black's past, which have already happened from Black's perspective.

It doesn't go against what we've seen in the past in DB. It's just different, and the paradox was bound to happen with multiple people traveling between parallel timelines.
Alee9977 wrote:...it's almost impossible for Zamasu to travel to that future from the main timeline, the only way Trunks was able to do it was when he created the main timeline and never touched the configuration of the time machine ever again...
Toyotarô introduced that explanation in the manga, but it's inconsistent with prior details given in Toriyama's manga. It might be a plot hole; for example, Trunks says he traveled back 20 years in the main story, which fits with his age and the age of baby Trunks, but in the 'history of Trunks' chapter Bulma says he's going back 17 years. But regardless, even if they did intend it to work that way, that's only true for Trunks's time machine. The green time rings can presumably access any point in an alternate timeline, so long as it's in the future (relative to the last common point between the timelines).
Alee9977 wrote:Black was able to follow Trunks just because the space-time hole that was left by the time machine.
This is true, and apparently it's this oddity that allowed the causal loop scenario in the first place.

User avatar
Krillin1994
Regular
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:14 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:15 pm

Chances of seeing Gohan tonight? have him at least be clued in on what's been going on?

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:33 pm

Krillin1994 wrote:Chances of seeing Gohan tonight? have him at least be clued in on what's been going on?
Zero to none. Gohan's pretty much done with fighting and the whole "train to become stronger and protect my loved ones" plot point was just a red herring.

User avatar
Terez
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm
Location: IL, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Terez » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:35 pm

I doubt we'll see Gohan tonight, but I also doubt that line was a red herring. It would be pointless trolling. He'll get his day in the time chamber sooner or later.

User avatar
dbzfan7
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13045
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:55 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:43 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Krillin1994 wrote:Chances of seeing Gohan tonight? have him at least be clued in on what's been going on?
Zero to none. Gohan's pretty much done with fighting and the whole "train to become stronger and protect my loved ones" plot point was just a red herring.
We'll see him again once Goku steals Pan and hands her to Zeno. I'm still certain she's the one Goku will bring to play with Zeno.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8160
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:03 pm

ArchedThunder wrote:I'm guessing Zuno comes to tell Kaioshin what happened with Zamasu showing up at his place and then Kaioshin comes to Earth to tell the gang.
How if Zamasu is going to cut his throat?
namekiansaiyan wrote:I just hope that Beerus not just kills Zamasu but Black as well. To me that would be a great end fight as we know that no one else can match him.
What? You can't be for real, that would ruin the whole arc! Beerus is not that all-powerful nowadays, you know, 2 SSGSS would be enough to defeat him, SSJR should be slighty stronger it could give him a good match, I hope someone could defeat him in this arc.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

Post Reply