I'd say it's less her getting married, and more because she found out the truth about her father. That's why her and Gohan get along by the end, because they both grew up having to follow their parent's shadows, and when they finally realise they don't want that and step away, they both became more free for themselves. Gohan does this after the Cell Saga, and Videl does this after the Buu Saga.GodKaio-Ken wrote: I disagree with your first line INTENSELY. Everyone changes a LOT once youre married not to mention she was in high school at the time.
Also getting destroyed by Spopovich probably made her less keen to go around starting fights.
Hell even GOHAN stopped fighting. If Goan stopped why would she keep going? That isnt the life they chose.
"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
That does not track with my life experiences. Maybe this is an age thing? None of my married friends have suddenly abandoned their interests or personalities, even the few with kids.GodKaio-Ken wrote:I disagree with your first line INTENSELY. Everyone changes a LOT once youre married not to mention she was in high school at the time.
Do you know what the difference between a married person/parent and their previous self is? They live with their partner, and they have a kid. The latter especially requires maturation, but it does not require becoming a plank of wood.
Keeping strictly in fiction, every other character in Dragon Ball seems to have had their interests and personalities withstand marriage as well.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
For me, it's more that the transition from the Jump Special's Videl to BoG's Videl was handled poorly for the viewer. Given the time-frame and how much has happened since Abocado's defeat - that's completely understandable for Videl to mature and begin to become a responsible adult. It's just that... outside of Chichi's descent into madness (even then, that wasn't immediate. There aren't too many hints of her over-bearing motherhood at the start of Z, but that's an entirely different discussion), we have not seen such a drastic shift in character following a timeskip.Lord Beerus wrote: So Videl decided to settle down and act more level-headed because she's married and has an infant to look after and she's suddenly out of character for not acting like a teenager? I don't get that
I'm intrigued to know the other examples, though.
I'm on the side of character growth and love seeing both Videl and Gohan really blossom into their own - I just wish we could still see traces of that fierce look in Videl's eye. I was hoping we would have seen a bit of this during the small Great Saiyaman movie debacle, but it didn't quite happen. I was not upset by her actions, merely disappointed. Maybe I just miss Buu arc's Videl.
There are plenty of excellent, very subtle examples of character growth throughout the show. Videl's is one that I feel was mishandled.
Spoiler:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Her interests before were being a smart ass (not the best term for it but a better one is eluding me), stalking Gohan (in the anime) and fighting crime.Cipher wrote:That does not track with my life experiences. Maybe this is an age thing? None of my married friends have suddenly abandoned their interests or personalities, even the few with kids.GodKaio-Ken wrote:I disagree with your first line INTENSELY. Everyone changes a LOT once youre married not to mention she was in high school at the time.
Do you know what the difference between a married person/parent and their previous self is? They live with their partner, and they have a kid. The latter especially requires maturation, but it does not require becoming a plank of wood.
Keeping strictly in fiction, every other character in Dragon Ball seems to have had their interests and personalities withstand marriage as well.
I dont see those interests transfering into adulthood. Especially her rough and tumble attitude. She acted like a typical teenager.
Regardless of marriage she was a teenager...are you the same as you were as a teen? I'm 27 and I'm vastly diferent.
I'm not saying shes used well but it makes sense to me.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
I think Videl's character drastically changed because of her fight at the tournament and learning that Mr.Satan wasn't the hero of the world. It seriously humbled her.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
She was a crime-fighting superhero. And a career martial-artist. Those elements, along with all shades of her personality, shouldn't simply vanish.GodKaio-Ken wrote:Her interests before were being a smart ass (not the best term for it but a better one is eluding me), stalking Gohan (in the anime) and fighting crime.
We're the same age, by the way, and while I certainly don't know anyone who hasn't changed substantially since their teenage years, I also don't know anyone who's suddenly dropped their defining traits upon entering a relationship or marriage.
In Dragon Ball, Bulma, Chi-Chi, Goku, Kuririn, #18, and Vegeta all manage to transition into married life while retaining defined personalities that align with who they were before. And at least four of those characters aren't sexless weirdos. The original run also gave us brief glimpses of a post-Boo-arc Videl who wasn't quite so milquetoast. It's not an all-or-nothing binary between no change and Stepford wife.
I think we land on the same page here thoughーshe isn't used well. We don't see a shifting of her personality so much as a sudden void. If her married self weren't such a non-character, I think we'd all be willing to sit with some level of, even substantial, change.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Videl isn't like the rest of the cast though. None of the original cast spent their daily life put their lives on line acting like Superheroes. They were singled minded martial artists, that when the occasion arises every now and again, would defeat the bad guy(s) threatening the safety of either their friends, family or the world, then return to their normal lives. Videl made it her task to find and beat bad guys on a nearly daily basis. Even letting it cut into her education at times. The rest of the cast aren't like her. They don't play "superhero" like does/did.Cipher wrote:She was a crime-fighting superhero. And a career martial-artist. Those elements, along with all shades of her personality, shouldn't simply vanish.GodKaio-Ken wrote:Her interests before were being a smart ass (not the best term for it but a better one is eluding me), stalking Gohan (in the anime) and fighting crime.
We're the same age, by the way, and while I certainly don't know anyone who hasn't changed substantially since their teenage years, I also don't know anyone who's suddenly dropped their defining traits upon entering a relationship or marriage.
In Dragon Ball, Bulma, Chi-Chi, Goku, Kuririn, #18, and Vegeta all manage to transition into married life while retaining defined personalities that align with who they were before. And at least four of those characters aren't sexless weirdos. The original run also gave us brief glimpses of a post-Boo-arc Videl who wasn't quite so milquetoast. It's not an all-or-nothing binary between no change and Stepford wife.
I think we land on the same page here thoughーshe isn't used well. We don't see a shifting of her personality so much as a sudden void. If her married self weren't such a non-character, I think we'd all be willing to sit with some level of, even substantial, change.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Tue May 30, 2017 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Is that the reason the rest of the cast got to retain some shade of their personalities?Lord Beerus wrote:Videl isn't like the rest of the cast though. None of the original cast spent their daily live put their lives on line acting like Superheroes. They were singled minded martial artists, that when the occasion arises every now and again, would defeat the bad guy(s) threatening the safety of either their friend, family of the world then return to their normal lives. Videl made it her task to find and beat bad bad guys on a nearly daily basis. Even letting it cut into her education at times. The rest of the cast aren't like her. They don't play "superhero" like does/did.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Not only this but I think she did subtly develop into what we see now. When she is introduced we see she is extremely self confident and a bit full of herself. As the truth is revealed through the arc a lot of her initial attitude fades away.Lord Beerus wrote:Videl isn't like the rest of the cast though. None of the original cast spent their daily live put their lives on line acting like Superheroes. They were singled minded martial artists, that when the occasion arises every now and again, would defeat the bad guy(s) threatening the safety of either their friend, family of the world then return to their normal lives. Videl made it her task to find and beat bad bad guys on a nearly daily basis. Even letting it cut into her education at times. The rest of the cast aren't like her. They don't play "superhero" like does/did.Cipher wrote:She was a crime-fighting superhero. And a career martial-artist. Those elements, along with all shades of her personality, shouldn't simply vanish.GodKaio-Ken wrote:Her interests before were being a smart ass (not the best term for it but a better one is eluding me), stalking Gohan (in the anime) and fighting crime.
We're the same age, by the way, and while I certainly don't know anyone who hasn't changed substantially since their teenage years, I also don't know anyone who's suddenly dropped their defining traits upon entering a relationship or marriage.
In Dragon Ball, Bulma, Chi-Chi, Goku, Kuririn, #18, and Vegeta all manage to transition into married life while retaining defined personalities that align with who they were before. And at least four of those characters aren't sexless weirdos. The original run also gave us brief glimpses of a post-Boo-arc Videl who wasn't quite so milquetoast. It's not an all-or-nothing binary between no change and Stepford wife.
I think we land on the same page here thoughーshe isn't used well. We don't see a shifting of her personality so much as a sudden void. If her married self weren't such a non-character, I think we'd all be willing to sit with some level of, even substantial, change.
At the end of the day I think its a mixture of these reasons:
1) She just isnt an overly important character and Toriyama had no interest in writing her out beyond her original role.
2) Her meeting with Spopovich
3) Her realization she isnt actually that strong compared to many threats. Add to this her realization her father was really a lie and her desire to protext their image seemed to drop.
4) She has a family now and cares more about protecting her own.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Videl wasnt that popular in Z, in the DB Forever character poll she ranked 20th, below the likes of Yajirobe. The fact that she was human also doomed her tbh.
Some people fear Caulifla might follow that path once she falls in love with Cabba, but she is a saiyan so she might be in the safe spot..
Some people fear Caulifla might follow that path once she falls in love with Cabba, but she is a saiyan so she might be in the safe spot..
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
When you get married and have to take care of an infant, especially one that is super-powered, yes, your personality may indeed radically change because your perspective of what you prioritize in life changes when you having someone very vulnerable to take care of. Some people may still act the same but others go thorough a different transition. She already lose her uptight and semi-tsundere attitude when she discovered that Gohan was the one who saved the world and not her father and she realized that she loved Gohan. And getting married and having a child in, especially as young as she did, is naturally going to result in you becoming far more level headed and focused on what really matters. And sort of character that she had defined was in her high school years, and needless to say, most people can go through a shift in character when you age from a young teenager to an adult. Nobody is saying that Videl can't still be a crime-fighting superhero or a martial artist, but she obviously knows better to put all her attention on her family. She could be used better I won't deny it, but If I were to be brutally honest, I never saw that much of a character in her beyond "she like to fight and train and sometimes be uptight".Cipher wrote:Is that the reason the rest of the cast got to retain some shade of their personalities?Lord Beerus wrote:Videl isn't like the rest of the cast though. None of the original cast spent their daily life put their lives on line acting like Superheroes. They were singled minded martial artists, that when the occasion arises every now and again, would defeat the bad guy(s) threatening the safety of either their friends, family or the world, then return to their normal lives. Videl made it her task to find and beat bad guys on a nearly daily basis. Even letting it cut into her education at times. The rest of the cast aren't like her. They don't play "superhero" like does/did.
Spoiler:
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
I will just say that I find no problem with Videl's personality. Most people don't act like they do when they were teenagers, especially after marriage. This has happened to me with people I knew in my own life. Some people do stay the same, but I don't see how Videl would remain the same after learning that her father lied about being the strongest in the world and she learned that despite all his skill, she's a flee in the grand scheme of things. It's an extremely humbling experience that would realistically change a person.
Even Goku was shaking when he learned that being the strongest on Earth amount to being the strongest in a puddle next to an ocean. However, what makes Goku different is that he believed that he could break that barrier and become the strongest again, which he largely succeeded at. Videl, on the other hand, doesn't have a chance and she knows it. So, she have to accept being a bug in a world filled with monsters.
Now, there is an argument to be have if Videl should somehow be more involved in the story, although I honestly don't see how at this point, but I don't think it was ever realistic to think that Videl would remain the same as she was in the Buu Saga after all that has happened.
Even Goku was shaking when he learned that being the strongest on Earth amount to being the strongest in a puddle next to an ocean. However, what makes Goku different is that he believed that he could break that barrier and become the strongest again, which he largely succeeded at. Videl, on the other hand, doesn't have a chance and she knows it. So, she have to accept being a bug in a world filled with monsters.
Now, there is an argument to be have if Videl should somehow be more involved in the story, although I honestly don't see how at this point, but I don't think it was ever realistic to think that Videl would remain the same as she was in the Buu Saga after all that has happened.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
While I don't think her personality would, or should, be identical to her sixteen-year-old Boo-arc self, which I acknowledged in an earlier post by pointing out this is not a binary proposition, I can't fully support the shift from the Toriyama female character of the original run to the Kishimoto female character offered under present-day Toei.
She's a minor character, of course, but Super handles her so poorly she stands out.
She's a minor character, of course, but Super handles her so poorly she stands out.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Actually I want to know what was ruin about Videl's character. To me she feels fine but she just don't fight anymore and more mature maybe. Is that the reason? She doesn't fight anymore? Or is there something else that's missing? Because I always hear people complaining about Videl but I just can't understand what's wrong with her.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
I don't think it's impossible to make her interesting again; Videl showed quick flashes of character during that two-episode Gohan mini-arc a while back.
Additional example: Vegeta was, for the past 3 months, falling into that same blandness hole that Videl's currently in, but he clawed his way out of there in the past two weeks.
Additional example: Vegeta was, for the past 3 months, falling into that same blandness hole that Videl's currently in, but he clawed his way out of there in the past two weeks.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Does she? She barely has that much screen time to begin with. Most of the time she's just acting like a mother and wife would... just generally nice and respectful to everyone. But even then, we see in Episode 73 and 74, that she's basically a calm and level headed person who extremely supportive and trusting of her husband and still isn't above verbally tearing down people who spread bullshit.Cipher wrote:She's a minor character, of course, but Super handles her so poorly she stands out.
Spoiler:
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
She seems to exist only to dully tend house and make supportive statements about Gohan?fexus wrote:Actually I want to know what was ruin about Videl's character. To me she feels fine but she just don't fight anymore and more mature maybe. Is that the reason? She doesn't fight anymore? Or is there something else that's missing? Because I always hear people complaining about Videl but I just can't understand what's wrong with her.
Describe Videl's character in Super without using the words "wife" or "mother" or referring to her relationship to Gohan.
You know what would be nice? If, despite obviously having to care for her newborn at the moment, she made some sort of reference to her interests outside of that role--things she's looking forward to getting back to, etc.
The Toriyama vs. Kishimoto comparison is really the most succinct, in-genre way I have of describing the issue here. We went from someone who seemed to have her own thing going on and who more or less behaved like a person, to someone defined entirely by her relationships to the men in her life.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
I personally never had a problem with Videl's character, but I understand where people are coming from. Just look at Bulma, (Videl's complete polar opposite in-terms of character progression) she has matured, but she still has shreds of her personality from when she was a teenager.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Wait, so you're telling me being supportive of Gohan is making her dull? Being a wife and a mother is too dull? I think all your complaints here boils down to I hate what I don't like. She have less screen time now but when she does appear nothing they make her do is actually outside of her established character. Her character was already developed and if push comes to shove she and we know what she can do. It's not like she becomes some kind of meek housewife or something. She isn't even like Chi chi, Bulma or even 18. All of them are housewife. And all of them are distinct. Just because they don't kickass anymore doesn't mean their character is suddenly gone. Just because we aren't being reminded every 20 episodes on how badass Videl is doesn't mean she stop being Videl. I mean we even got the Gohan cheating episodes. She shows her spirit there. She is a trusting person. But she still doesn't fight. Maybe you're right.Cipher wrote:She seems to exist only to dully tend house and make supportive statements about Gohan?fexus wrote:Actually I want to know what was ruin about Videl's character. To me she feels fine but she just don't fight anymore and more mature maybe. Is that the reason? She doesn't fight anymore? Or is there something else that's missing? Because I always hear people complaining about Videl but I just can't understand what's wrong with her.
Describe Videl's character in Super without using the words "wife" or "mother" or referring to her relationship to Gohan.
You know what would be nice? If, despite obviously having to care for her newborn at the moment, she made some sort of reference to her interests outside of that role--things she's looking forward to getting back to, etc.
The Toriyama vs. Kishimoto comparison is really the most succinct, in-genre way I have of describing the issue here. We went from someone who seemed to have her own thing going on and who more or less behaved like a person, to someone defined entirely by her relationships to the men in her life.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
I both hate and dislike shallow characters who can't be defined outside the context of their relationships.
The only episodes to remind us she has a pulse in the better part of two years culminate in the revelation that ... drumroll please ... she trusts her husband. Which is sweet, but would be a lot sweeter without the backdrop of complete, borderline uncomfortable housewifery.
If she isn't going to play an active role, that's fine; she doesn't need to show up. (Nor do characters like Gohan when they aren't playing active roles.) But if screentime is going to be thrown a character's way, they shouldn't be this dull when they had personality prior. I have no excuses to offer Toei on this.
The only episodes to remind us she has a pulse in the better part of two years culminate in the revelation that ... drumroll please ... she trusts her husband. Which is sweet, but would be a lot sweeter without the backdrop of complete, borderline uncomfortable housewifery.
If she isn't going to play an active role, that's fine; she doesn't need to show up. (Nor do characters like Gohan when they aren't playing active roles.) But if screentime is going to be thrown a character's way, they shouldn't be this dull when they had personality prior. I have no excuses to offer Toei on this.
Last edited by Cipher on Tue May 30, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.