"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[dragonballhero]

Caulifa has the exact personality people wanted out of a female Saiyan for years.

Goddamn. I don't know about other people or how many, but I certainly never wanted a selfish, arrogant, self-important caricature in a new saiyan character. Kale may be too demure, but at least it's a different spin on the saiyan archetype than the "me me me, let's fight I GOTZ POTENTIAAAAAALS" we get in Caulifla.

For all I know, I'm in a minority, but at the same time I'd be pretty shocked if a sizeable portion of fans wanted this trainwreck of bad writing representing female saiyans.

Then I must be in that minority with you. This might be just be me, but Dragon Ball really isn't too great at INTRODUCING female characters. I guess Chi-Chi's intro was...OK(?), but Bulma, Videl, Cauli, Pan (GT) just didn't do it for me.

[HeroR]

Caulifa has the exact personality people wanted out of a female Saiyan for years.

Goddamn. I don't know about other people or how many, but I certainly never wanted a selfish, arrogant, self-important caricature in a new saiyan character. Kale may be too demure, but at least it's a different spin on the saiyan archetype than the "me me me, let's fight I GOTZ POTENTIAAAAAALS" we get in Caulifla.

For all I know, I'm in a minority, but at the same time I'd be pretty shocked if a sizeable portion of fans wanted this trainwreck of bad writing representing female saiyans.

Caulifa and Kale are becoming incredibly popular, I can see them being anime mainstays moreso than the other Universe 6 characters.I

Do we have data to tell us for certain one way or the other? I don't know if I could call them popular or unpopular. They're too new to know.

Then again, I'm an old dude. So maybe I'm missing something.

We know that Cali and Kale are popular since their merch sells, unlike with Jiren for example. People whining on the internet doesn't equal a majority of anything. There is a reason why the term 'vocal minority' exists.

I also don't agree that "wanted this train wreck of bad writing representing female saiyans", since if it was really a train wreck of bad writing as you put it, then they wouldn't be popular, period. They would be the Scrappy of the fandom. Bad writing is not short term for 'I don't like something', it is something objective you can talk about. While the writing for Cali and Kale isn't the best, their writing is no worse than most characters in Dragon Ball. There are only a few very good written character in Dragon Ball from an objective point-of-view.

For example, Goten is not a good written character from an objective point-of-view. He was created to fill in the 'kid' character of Dragon Ball and to act as a sorta replacement for Goku who was dead the point of looking almost exactly like him. Other than not being as naive as kid Goku and more socially aware, he has no real personality. Everything about him revolves around Trunks and Gohan in the Buu Saga. He's bland and is almost a none character even in the Buu Saga, which is worse than having character traits that is seen as a negative since Cali for better or worse is a character while Goten is really just there. This isn't me being subjective with 'I don't like Goten', this is objectively the problem with Goten, whether you like him or not. As harsh as it is to say, Goten seems to only exists to create Gotenks.

And for the record, Cali doesn't even fit the "me me me, let's fight I GOTZ POTENTIAAAAAALS" since she has showed real care for someone other than herself and respect people stronger than her, unlike say Vegeta or the majority of Saiyans we saw. This is also the problem I have with people who don't like Cali. Instead of talking about her flaws in a rational way, they take the bit of her personality they don't like and then over blow them to the point of dishonesty.

[Big Black Sayian]

Caulifa has the exact personality people wanted out of a female Saiyan for years.

Goddamn. I don't know about other people or how many, but I certainly never wanted a selfish, arrogant, self-important caricature in a new saiyan character. Kale may be too demure, but at least it's a different spin on the saiyan archetype than the "me me me, let's fight I GOTZ POTENTIAAAAAALS" we get in Caulifla.

For all I know, I'm in a minority, but at the same time I'd be pretty shocked if a sizeable portion of fans wanted this trainwreck of bad writing representing female saiyans.

Caulifa and Kale are becoming incredibly popular, I can see them being anime mainstays moreso than the other Universe 6 characters.I

Do we have data to tell us for certain one way or the other? I don't know if I could call them popular or unpopular. They're too new to know.

Then again, I'm an old dude. So maybe I'm missing something.

We know that Cali and Kale are popular since their merch sells, unlike with Jiren for example. People whining on the internet doesn't equal a majority of anything. There is a reason why the term 'vocal minority' exists.

I also don't agree that "wanted this train wreck of bad writing representing female saiyans", since if it was really a train wreck of bad writing as you put it, then they wouldn't be popular, period. They would be the Scrappy of the fandom. Bad writing is not short term for 'I don't like something', it is something objective you can talk about. While the writing for Cali and Kale isn't the best, their writing is no worse than most characters in Dragon Ball. There are only a few very good written character in Dragon Ball from an objective point-of-view.
.

Wait since when can we tell with individual character moves merch?

[The_Destroyer]

Goddamn. I don't know about other people or how many, but I certainly never wanted a selfish, arrogant, self-important caricature in a new saiyan character. Kale may be too demure, but at least it's a different spin on the saiyan archetype than the "me me me, let's fight I GOTZ POTENTIAAAAAALS" we get in Caulifla.

For all I know, I'm in a minority, but at the same time I'd be pretty shocked if a sizeable portion of fans wanted this trainwreck of bad writing representing female saiyans.



Do we have data to tell us for certain one way or the other? I don't know if I could call them popular or unpopular. They're too new to know.

Then again, I'm an old dude. So maybe I'm missing something.

We know that Cali and Kale are popular since their merch sells, unlike with Jiren for example. People whining on the internet doesn't equal a majority of anything. There is a reason why the term 'vocal minority' exists.

I also don't agree that "wanted this train wreck of bad writing representing female saiyans", since if it was really a train wreck of bad writing as you put it, then they wouldn't be popular, period. They would be the Scrappy of the fandom. Bad writing is not short term for 'I don't like something', it is something objective you can talk about. While the writing for Cali and Kale isn't the best, their writing is no worse than most characters in Dragon Ball. There are only a few very good written character in Dragon Ball from an objective point-of-view.
.

Wait since when can we tell with individual character moves merch?

Would like a source for this too. Never heard of this before.

[HeroR]

Wait since when can we tell with individual character moves merch?

Other users can break it down better than me, but there is a way to track such stuff. For example, Jiren isn't a big seller, which is probably why we have seen more of Cali and Kale in merch than Jiren. For U6, we know the big selling characters before Cali and Kale were Hit, Cabba, and Frost to an extent, although he was less popular than Hit and Cabba.

For the most part, Cali and Kale seems to be like Broly. They have a vocal group that likes to talk about how shitty they are and how shitty they're written, but remained extremely popular, despite the people who don't like them not understanding why and often end up insulting those who do like these characters.

[precita]

People are really doubting female Saiyans with good designs and like to battle are popular?

[Big Black Sayian]

Wait since when can we tell with individual character moves merch?

Other users can break it down better than me, but there is a way to track such stuff. For example, Jiren isn't a big seller, which is probably why we have seen more of Cali and Kale in merch than Jiren. For U6, we know the big selling characters before Cali and Kale were Hit, Cabba, and Frost to an extent, although he was less popular than Hit and Cabba.

For the most part, Cali and Kale seems to be like Broly. They have a vocal group that likes to talk about how shitty they are and how shitty they're written, but remained extremely popular, despite the people who don't like them not understanding why and often end up insulting those who do like these characters.

Makes sense but I didn't even know Caulifla or Kale merch was out yet. Hell I didn't know Jiren merch was out yet

[HeroR]

Would like a source for this too. Never heard of this before.

Most of my information comes from Baggie_Saiyan who follows the sells of merchandise. Unfortunately, I can't find the exact post where they talked about Jiren not being a big seller. You can also follow popularity based on who gets merchandise. Like Black and Zamasu still get new figures. Hit is weird since he's popular, but his merchandise has been limited compared to others.

Makes sense but I didn't even know Caulifla or Kale merch was out yet. Hell I didn't know Jiren merch was out yet

Merchandise for Cali and Kale have been out for months. You can even get their cards in Dokkan Battle, along with Hit and Cabba getting new cards.

[TekTheNinja]

You know what, fuck it. Knock Frieza out. Kale and Caulifla are awful, but I hate Frieza being here and stealing spotlight from more deserving characters more than I hate the female saiyans doing the same, since at least the female saiyans aren't overused villains who have been brought back way too many times and have basically become a parody of himself. At least the female saiyans aren't a direct "fuck you" to Buu and his fans. At least the female saiyans don't make me hate a character I used to love, and still love outside of his appearances in Super.
...So basically, yeah. I hope Kafla knocks that fucking overhyped lizard bastard outta the ring ASAP. Woulda preferred if Cabba did it, but I honestly don't care who does it. Frieza's my most hated fight in the whole damn tournament so I just want him out. Seeing as every damn character I actually had hope to do well in this tournament has gotten fucked over or is in the process of getting fucked over, maybe I could at least get SOME enjoyment out of this arc from seeing a character who's pissing me off get fucked over.

Ugh. dunno where that tangent came from, but I guess I'm just in a bad mood and felt like ranting about how Super always does the opposite of what I hope will happen. With that said, I expect Frieza to rack up a high KO streak in the near future, luckily for those who are enjoying him, and unluckily for me... again.

[fadeddreams5]

Hmmm....since fusion lasts 30 minutes, Kale and Caulifa's fusion should logically last until the end of the tournament. Interesting.

You know what, fuck it. Knock Frieza out. Kale and Caulifla are awful, but I hate Frieza being here and stealing spotlight from more deserving characters more than I hate the female saiyans doing the same, since at least the female saiyans aren't overused villains who have been brought back way too many times and have basically become a parody of himself. At least the female saiyans aren't a direct "fuck you" to Buu and his fans. At least the female saiyans don't make me hate a character I used to love, and still love outside of his appearances in Super.
...So basically, yeah. I hope Kafla knocks that fucking overhyped lizard bastard outta the ring ASAP. Woulda preferred if Cabba did it, but I honestly don't care who does it. Frieza's my most hated fight in the whole damn tournament so I just want him out. Seeing as every damn character I actually had hope to do well in this tournament has gotten fucked over or is in the process of getting fucked over, maybe I could at least get SOME enjoyment out of this arc from seeing a character who's pissing me off get fucked over.

Ugh. dunno where that tangent came from, but I guess I'm just in a bad mood and felt like ranting about how Super always does the opposite of what I hope will happen. With that said, I expect Frieza to rack up a high KO streak in the near future, luckily for those who are enjoying him, and unluckily for me... again.

I love Frieza in this arc. My gripe is I wish RoF didn't exist. Or, at the very least, that Super took a different approach, and after Frieza was revived, he actually did keep to himself and focus on his army up until the Tournament of Power.

[Li'l Lemmy]

And for the record, Cali doesn't even fit the "me me me, let's fight I GOTZ POTENTIAAAAAALS" since she has showed real care for someone other than herself and respect people stronger than her, unlike say Vegeta or the majority of Saiyans we saw. This is also the problem I have with people who don't like Cali. Instead of talking about her flaws in a rational way, they take the bit of her personality they don't like and then over blow them to the point of dishonesty.

Bardock cared about his crew too. It didn't stop him from being a somewhat standard saiyan, maybe even the epitome of saiyan.

I'm not saying that those particular qualities I pointed out are all Caulifla is about; far from it. I'm saying that they magnify everything about the pure-blooded saiyan tropes that I personally find to be grating and annoying. No, she's not Cell arc Vegeta, but she's got the same arrogance issue that makes her a pain in the ass to watch, care about or sympathize with. She talks to people like an asshole until they can benefit her in some way. She makes stupid decisions based on her need to self-aggrandize and overindulge her own ego. Hell, she talks like she's already won the Tournament of Power singlehandedly. She's not the worst at being that kind of saiyan and certainly not the first to do it, but it's nothing I wanted or hoped for in new saiyan characters. At least Kale is something different.

I don't agree entirely with your criticisms of Goten, but I do think that you are mostly correct in your analysis. He needs more personality and development and purpose. At least part of the reason I dislike Super is that it does nothing to remedy that, and instead introduces more trope Saiyans like Caulifla that we don't need. The story is already bloated with too many saiyans. But that is a very personal opinion on my part.

Mind you, I'm also biased because I didn't want new saiyan characters at all; I think the saiyan wank needs to stop in general. But I'm not the author, so... (*shrugs*)

People are really doubting female Saiyans with good designs and like to battle are popular?

Sure, until we have solid data. It's been all of a few months. o.o

Look, I'm definitely open to being wrong. I'm not going to let my bias against these characters make me willfully ignorant. I'm just not able to go along and say popular or unpopular without something definitive like sales figures for merchandise of individual characters or whatever. Taking the pulse of the fandom with regard to this or that is always kinda difficult.

For all I know, they're the highest selling characters ever. Alternatively, it could just be that the arc is pushing them really hard that gives them an aura of being popular.

We just don't have helpful, factual, data-driven information (that I'm aware of).

[TekTheNinja]

You know what, fuck it. Knock Frieza out. Kale and Caulifla are awful, but I hate Frieza being here and stealing spotlight from more deserving characters more than I hate the female saiyans doing the same, since at least the female saiyans aren't overused villains who have been brought back way too many times and have basically become a parody of himself. At least the female saiyans aren't a direct "fuck you" to Buu and his fans. At least the female saiyans don't make me hate a character I used to love, and still love outside of his appearances in Super.
...So basically, yeah. I hope Kafla knocks that fucking overhyped lizard bastard outta the ring ASAP. Woulda preferred if Cabba did it, but I honestly don't care who does it. Frieza's my most hated fight in the whole damn tournament so I just want him out. Seeing as every damn character I actually had hope to do well in this tournament has gotten fucked over or is in the process of getting fucked over, maybe I could at least get SOME enjoyment out of this arc from seeing a character who's pissing me off get fucked over.

Ugh. dunno where that tangent came from, but I guess I'm just in a bad mood and felt like ranting about how Super always does the opposite of what I hope will happen. With that said, I expect Frieza to rack up a high KO streak in the near future, luckily for those who are enjoying him, and unluckily for me... again.

I love Frieza in this arc. My gripe is I wish RoF didn't exist. Or, at the very least, that Super took a different approach, and after Frieza was revived, he actually did keep to himself and focus on his army up until the Tournament of Power.

Ya know dude, that would have been a lot better. All of this just makes so many things seem pointless, such as most of Resurrection F and Frost's heel turn. I still wouldn't be happy with Buu getting shafted though. I'm starting to think Toriyama has some kind of vendetta against him or something. The only Buu fight in Super other than his rage against Beerus is manufactured by Toei.

[HeroR]

And for the record, Cali doesn't even fit the "me me me, let's fight I GOTZ POTENTIAAAAAALS" since she has showed real care for someone other than herself and respect people stronger than her, unlike say Vegeta or the majority of Saiyans we saw. This is also the problem I have with people who don't like Cali. Instead of talking about her flaws in a rational way, they take the bit of her personality they don't like and then over blow them to the point of dishonesty.

Bardock cared about his crew too. It didn't stop him from being a somewhat standard saiyan, maybe even the epitome of saiyan.

I'm not saying that those particular qualities I pointed out are all Caulifla is about; far from it. I'm saying that they magnify everything about the pure-blooded saiyan tropes that I personally find to be grating and annoying. No, she's not Cell arc Vegeta, but she's got the same arrogance issue that makes her a pain in the ass to watch, care about or sympathize with. She talks to people like an asshole until they can benefit her in some way. She makes stupid decisions based on her need to self-aggrandize and overindulge her own ego. Hell, she talks like she's already won the Tournament of Power singlehandedly. She's not the worst at being that kind of saiyan and certainly not the first to do it, but it's nothing I wanted or hoped for in new saiyan characters. At least Kale is something different.

I don't agree entirely with your criticisms of Goten, but I do think that you are mostly correct in your analysis. He needs more personality and development and purpose. At least part of the reason I dislike Super is that it does nothing to remedy that, and instead introduces more trope Saiyans like Caulifla that we don't need. The story is already bloated with too many saiyans. But that is a very personal opinion on my part.

Mind you, I'm also biased because I didn't want new saiyan characters at all; I think the saiyan wank needs to stop in general. But I'm not the author, so... (*shrugs*)

People are really doubting female Saiyans with good designs and like to battle are popular?

Sure, until we have solid data. It's been all of a few months. o.o

Look, I'm definitely open to being wrong. I'm not going to let my bias against these characters make me willfully ignorant. I'm just not able to go along and say popular or unpopular without something definitive like sales figures for merchandise of individual characters or whatever. Taking the pulse of the fandom with regard to this or that is always kinda difficult.

For all I know, they're the highest selling characters ever. Alternatively, it could just be that the arc is pushing them really hard that gives them an aura of being popular.

We just don't have helpful, factual, data-driven information (that I'm aware of).

The relationship between Bardock and his crew isn't the same relationship between Cali and Kale. And Bardock wasn't really the "epitome of Saiyan" given when Vegeta did to Nappa.

Her arrogant is no more up than Goku, who have a similar attitude when he sees someone way stronger than him. The only time Goku acted scared was when Raditz said that they were Saiyans stronger than him, and it was noted as OOC. And what stupid decisions based on her need to self-aggrandize and overindulge her own ego other than challenging Goku? Everyone else were within her power range or came after her. She also doesn't talk like "she's already won the Tournament of Power singlehandedly" since all she said was that she would reached the height of power that she saw.

You're not telling me what you don't agree with. As I said, I made nothing but objective statements about Goten which has nothing do with personally likes or dislikes. He's at best a satellite character who exists in the Buu Saga to give moral support to Gohan, to be friends with Trunks, and to form Gotenks. At least Kale and Cali served the story, while Goten could have died in the Buu Saga and nothing would have changed in Super, which is not a good place for any character. Goten isn't a good written character because he's barely a character, which is the worst thing you can be, Imo, because even a bad or flawed personality is better than none at all or barely one. It's closed to impossible to hate Gohan as a character since there isn't much there to hate.

If the audience doesn't like a character, it doesn't matter how much a character is pushed, the audience won't buy it. That is how you get Creator's Pets and the Scrappy when you pushed character the audience don't like. You can read a whole list about this on TV Tropes.

We do, it called sells. If Kale and Cali was widely disliked, people wouldn't buy their shit. They're not buying Jiren's stuff despite him being pushed because he isn't widely liked.


On topic, here is preview image of 114 thanks to ArchedThunder:

[Li'l Lemmy]

We do, it called sells. If Kale and Cali was widely disliked, people wouldn't buy their shit. They're not buying Jiren's stuff despite him being pushed because he isn't widely liked.

Well again, how do we know that they are "widely liked"?

It's an honest question; I'm not trying to be a smartass. We don't have data on how individual characters are selling, so far as I know. Like Ajay has said a few times, this is basically "Marketing: The Arc" and pretty much everybody's being marketed. I wouldn't necessarily take their appearance in merchandise as a sign of some kind of outrageous popularity when everybody's showing up anyway, not without numbers to back it up.

[HeroR]

Well again, how do we know that they are "widely liked"?

It's an honest question; I'm not trying to be a smartass. We don't have data on how individual characters are selling, so far as I know. Like Ajay has said a few times, this is basically "Marketing: The Arc" and pretty much everybody's being marketed. I wouldn't necessarily take their appearance in merchandise as a sign of some kind of outrageous popularity when everybody's showing up anyway, not without numbers to back it up.

People usually don't buy merchandise of characters they disliked unless they're a collector. Marketing can't make people buy stuff and we know Kale and Cali stuff sells, especially since they keep making new stuff for them, while Jiren has a hard time in comparison. Not sure why that's hard to gasp.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Well again, how do we know that they are "widely liked"?

It's an honest question; I'm not trying to be a smartass. We don't have data on how individual characters are selling, so far as I know. Like Ajay has said a few times, this is basically "Marketing: The Arc" and pretty much everybody's being marketed. I wouldn't necessarily take their appearance in merchandise as a sign of some kind of outrageous popularity when everybody's showing up anyway, not without numbers to back it up.

People usually don't buy merchandise of characters they disliked unless they're a collector. Marketing can't make people buy stuff and we know Kale and Cali stuff sells, especially since they keep making new stuff for them, while Jiren has a hard time in comparison. Not sure why that's hard to gasp.

Well, I haven't seen an overwhelming amount of merchandise dedicated specifically to them. Didn't we only just now hear about the first and only Caulifla figure so far in the upcoming UDM set? What does that leave, the same stickers and cards that every other character is getting? O.o

[HeroR]

Well, I haven't seen an overwhelming amount of merchandise dedicated specifically to them. Didn't we only just now hear about the first and only Caulifla figure so far in the upcoming UDM set? What does that leave, the same stickers and cards that every other character is getting? O.o

You're forgetting Dokkan that had their cards out even before people like Toppo or 17. Jiren doesn't even have a card in Dokkan yet.

[namekiansaiyan]

Well, I haven't seen an overwhelming amount of merchandise dedicated specifically to them. Didn't we only just now hear about the first and only Caulifla figure so far in the upcoming UDM set? What does that leave, the same stickers and cards that every other character is getting? O.o

You're forgetting Dokkan that had their cards out even before people like Toppo or 17. Jiren doesn't even have a card in Dokkan yet.

It is because they Saiyans and many fans will like just because they are new Saiyans. This fanbase does not seem to like much variety.

[HeroR]

It is because they Saiyans and many fans will like just because they are new Saiyans. This fanbase does not seem to like much variety.

That's one way dismissed people who like Cali and Kale. They obviously don't like the characters, it's all because they're Saiyans.

[Sandubadear]

re: New herms translation

Maybe Goku tries to teach them SSJ3 but neither can transform so they fuse just to achieve the forma like Gotenks