"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:00 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Vegeta is my favorite character. Caulifa is well.. Look Vegeta was born the Prince of Saiyans, enslaved by Frieza, and embarrassed by a third rate saiyan who "stole" his birth right as a SSJ. And only realizes he has a chance to become SSJ by seeing his son from a post apocalyptic future turn SSJ and effortless slaughter Frieza. Two things he failed to do..

Caulifa tingles her back and goes SSJ. Vegeta was built up over a very long time period. Caulifa must be a one and done characters because they are speed running the Vegeta progression in a single arc. Why rush the characters growth if they were going to continue being around later...

Well sure I think Vegeta is a better developed character than Caulifla I can write pages and pages about Vegeta but it is a bit unfair to compare when Vegeta has been around for 100’s of episodes

And while I don’t think getting transformations so easily is the best writing I also don’t hate Caulifla for it.

I guess as for rushing it these transformations are old news now. Do have characters be relevant at all you kind of need them to be on a certain level.
Umm no, they could have just made saiyans from that universe unique and not have any transformations at all. Just make their base forms super powerful like what Gohan's ultimate form was. It would have made sense and you already went through the trouble of saying they evolved without tails. Anyway the point I'm making is there's no reason to rush through these characters unless they don't have plans for them in the future. It's really suspicious and makes me think they aren't going to be around in the story proper after this arc.

Well I did think of making them strong on their own already but then they wouldn’t be the protégées of Goku & Vegeta and it looks like that is where they wanted to go with these characters.

And besides transformations isn’t the only way to develop characters. I personally don’t really think Vegeta’s character developed through his transformations

The only character where I think this is kind of true is Gohan.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:01 pm

HeroR wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Umm no, they could have just made saiyans from that universe unique and not have any transformations at all. Just make their base forms super powerful like what Gohan's ultimate form was. It would have made sense and you already went through the trouble of saying they evolved without tails. Anyway the point I'm making is there's no reason to rush through these characters unless they don't have plans for them in the future. It's really suspicious and makes me think they aren't going to be around in the story proper after this arc.
The U6 Saiyans not having Super Saiyan really doesn't make sense since even the tailless hybrids have Super Saiyan and even get it easier than the pure-blooded Saiyans. Gohan's Ultimate form is just something he got from an old witch ritual.
It makes plenty of sense because even Vados and Champa never heard of Saiyans have transformations of any kind before. They already had the setup to just make saiyans really strong in that universe without transforming or even give them unique transformations. Neither happened. Ultimate is unlocking full potential without the need to transform. At least it was. It would make more sense for them to have that in the context that 100 million year old entities had never hear of it before so it likely didn't exist at all in their universe.
BlueBasilisk wrote: Or they could be rushing them now to bring them up to relevance so they could be used again in future arcs and not fall into that Future Trunks trap again. That happened a year ago and it's still providing a headache. I mean, if you wanna push someone through the power band quickly, a tournament where existence itself is on the line is about the best opportunity for it.
Again, why even need to use transformations at all. We only had two options. 1) Make them no transform and just really naturally strong to bring them to relevance. 2) Make them cycle through and gain the transformations easily and rapidly. 2) The second option makes little sense after Champa and Vados statement so why not just go with the first. I would dislike option 1) but options 2) is even worse from a storytelling perspective.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by hardcorefakes » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:05 pm

HeroR wrote:Most of the fans who keep thinking Super Saiyan is sacred is only aware of the anime since I can't tell you how many fans were surprised and dismay when I told them that Trunks' iconic Super Saiyan transformation never happened in the manga and that he had Super Saiyan before Gohan died. In general, the Dragon Ball fandom is the worst when it comes to knowing anything about the original source material.
Nope, sorry. I read the manga and still think Caulifla's pretty terrible.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:06 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Well I did think of making them strong on their own already but then they wouldn’t be the protégées of Goku & Vegeta and it looks like that is where they wanted to go with these characters.

And besides transformations isn’t the only way to develop characters. I personally don’t really think Vegeta’s character developed through his transformations

The only character where I think this is kind of true is Gohan.
Vegeta developed through his drive and motivations. The transformations are merely visual representations of milestones he's hit. Likewise the "controlled" form Kale got was coincided with his epiphany of helping Caulifa. Remember this tournament is only 48 mins and in the course of it Kale is going to gain the motivation to transform into a new form and then further gain the motivation to master it. and then their bond also comes into play with further transformations. These are interpersonal developments which would be better served for a less chaotic arc rather than shoehorning the introduction and rocket growth all into one. They didn't do that will Cabba, he had the opportunity and room to grow past his introductory arc as did Hit. The way the characters are played its as if we will never seem them again in another arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:07 pm

hardcorefakes wrote:
HeroR wrote:Most of the fans who keep thinking Super Saiyan is sacred is only aware of the anime since I can't tell you how many fans were surprised and dismay when I told them that Trunks' iconic Super Saiyan transformation never happened in the manga and that he had Super Saiyan before Gohan died. In general, the Dragon Ball fandom is the worst when it comes to knowing anything about the original source material.
Nope, sorry. I read the manga and still think Caulifla's pretty terrible.
What does have to with my point, especially since my post never mentioned Cali?

Whether you think Cali is terrible or not has nothing to do with Super Saiyan being sacred or not. Or at the very least, it shouldn't be a factor.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:09 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
Well I did think of making them strong on their own already but then they wouldn’t be the protégées of Goku & Vegeta and it looks like that is where they wanted to go with these characters.

And besides transformations isn’t the only way to develop characters. I personally don’t really think Vegeta’s character developed through his transformations

The only character where I think this is kind of true is Gohan.
Vegeta developed through his drive and motivations. The transformations are merely visual representations of milestones he's hit. Likewise the "controlled" form Kale got was coincided with his epiphany of helping Caulifa. Remember this tournament is only 48 mins and in the course of it Kale is going to gain the motivation to transform into a new form and then further gain the motivation to master it. and then their bond also comes into play with further transformations. These are interpersonal developments which would be better served for a less chaotic arc rather than shoehorning the introduction and rocket growth all into one. They didn't do that will Cabba, he had the opportunity and room to grow past his introductory arc as did Hit. The way the characters are played its as if we will never seem them again in another arc.
I don’t really agree that Vegeta developed through transformations but we may see his character differently.

I do agree with you that the way transformations are handled in this arc is not the best writing it just doesn’t exactly bother me as much as it does you.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:41 pm

Kinokima wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
Well I did think of making them strong on their own already but then they wouldn’t be the protégées of Goku & Vegeta and it looks like that is where they wanted to go with these characters.

And besides transformations isn’t the only way to develop characters. I personally don’t really think Vegeta’s character developed through his transformations

The only character where I think this is kind of true is Gohan.
Vegeta developed through his drive and motivations. The transformations are merely visual representations of milestones he's hit. Likewise the "controlled" form Kale got was coincided with his epiphany of helping Caulifa. Remember this tournament is only 48 mins and in the course of it Kale is going to gain the motivation to transform into a new form and then further gain the motivation to master it. and then their bond also comes into play with further transformations. These are interpersonal developments which would be better served for a less chaotic arc rather than shoehorning the introduction and rocket growth all into one. They didn't do that will Cabba, he had the opportunity and room to grow past his introductory arc as did Hit. The way the characters are played its as if we will never seem them again in another arc.
I don’t really agree that Vegeta developed through transformations but we may see his character differently.

I do agree with you that the way transformations are handled in this arc is not the best writing it just doesn’t exactly bother me as much as it does you.
I didn't say he developed through them, they just visually represented his character development and not literally exclusive to his transformations. Just visual representations of his internal growth. They all represent a different phase of his life and something he went through to achieve it. You can look at each one and tell exactly where he was as a character in terms of his personal growth.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by hardcorefakes » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:14 pm

HeroR wrote:
hardcorefakes wrote:
HeroR wrote:Most of the fans who keep thinking Super Saiyan is sacred is only aware of the anime since I can't tell you how many fans were surprised and dismay when I told them that Trunks' iconic Super Saiyan transformation never happened in the manga and that he had Super Saiyan before Gohan died. In general, the Dragon Ball fandom is the worst when it comes to knowing anything about the original source material.
Nope, sorry. I read the manga and still think Caulifla's pretty terrible.
What does have to with my point, especially since my post never mentioned Cali?

Whether you think Cali is terrible or not has nothing to do with Super Saiyan being sacred or not. Or at the very least, it shouldn't be a factor.
Because you were obviously trying to throw shade at her critics with the implication being that people don't know that Trunks and Goten got their forms off-screen, and that they haven't read the manga. So that makes her "okay".

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:21 pm

TheMikado wrote: I didn't say he developed through them, they just visually represented his character development and not literally exclusive to his transformations. Just visual representations of his internal growth. They all represent a different phase of his life and something he went through to achieve it. You can look at each one and tell exactly where he was as a character in terms of his personal growth.
I mean I think they visually represent what period in Vegeta's life he is in...sure. But that is because those transformations happened at different times in his life or different sagas for us. I don't think the transformations had anything really to do with his personal growth. But to get more in depth I think we would have to start a new thread. I mean I can always talk about Vegeta don't get me wrong. :lol:


But anyways from a storytelling perspective I agree the transformations for the U6 saiyans feel like they are happening too quickly but if they want to be relevant in terms of strength then they kind of have to be introduced quickly. They could definitely have made them already strong and maybe I would have preferred this but then I also like the student/teacher aspect of their characters with our Saiyans and well that would have made less sense if they were already so strong.

I am not saying its perfect I do have an issue with it. It just as I said it isn't the end of the world and then there are still chances for the U6 characters to develop as characters that have nothing to do with how powerful they are. But I guess we will have to see what happens to their characters from this point on (especially after the TOP).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:49 pm

TekTheNinja wrote:She ain't a tsundere, she's just an asshole.
Exactly. I can't wait for the episode where both she and Kale get erased for good.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:55 pm

hardcorefakes wrote:
Because you were obviously trying to throw shade at her critics with the implication being that people don't know that Trunks and Goten got their forms off-screen, and that they haven't read the manga. So that makes her "okay".
If you’re big criticism of any character is that they transformations too fast and therefore make them less special, that’s a lousy and petty argument for any character for the reasons I named. Doubly so if you don’t know the source material.

If don’t like a character because of their personality, that’s a different matter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by precita » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:00 pm

Caulifa and Kale are probably the two most popular characters this arc has introduced. Bar maybe Toppo, none of the other pride troopers became popular and opinion is still mixed on Jiren with most finding him dull.

The rest of the fighters are practically fodder that despite some cool designs or fights you can't really say much about them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:01 pm

HeroR wrote:
hardcorefakes wrote:
Because you were obviously trying to throw shade at her critics with the implication being that people don't know that Trunks and Goten got their forms off-screen, and that they haven't read the manga. So that makes her "okay".
If you’re big criticism of any character is that they transformations too fast and therefore make them less special, that’s a lousy and petty argument for any character for the reasons I named. Doubly so if you don’t know the source material.

If don’t like a character because of their personality, that’s a different matter.
They don't deserve it, simple as that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:03 pm

I'm gonna just keep bringing it up until more people start acknowledging it...

The U6 Saiyans already were really, really strong in their base forms. We have no reason to believe these kids were much weaker at the start of Super. They don't really talk about having faced Universe-threatening adversity and overcoming the might of gods or anything of the sort in the U6 arc, and they don't mention training with kais or gods or angels. So, even if we want to be really stingy and say that, at the start of Super, Cabba and Caulifla were half as strong as they were by the U6 tournament, again, a proposal I'd say we have no evidence to support, even at half U6 tournament strength, these are kids that have the strength to defeat Majin Buu if not Super Buuhan. Yes, Dragonball Super takes everything to a new level, but the base U6 saiyans are no joke. At the start of the show's timeline they are already stronger than anything that existed in Z except probably Super Vegetto. Probably.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:08 pm

Ziegander wrote:I'm gonna just keep bringing it up until more people start acknowledging it...

The U6 Saiyans already were really, really strong in their base forms. We have no reason to believe these kids were much weaker at the start of Super. They don't really talk about having faced Universe-threatening adversity and overcoming the might of gods or anything of the sort in the U6 arc, and they don't mention training with kais or gods or angels. So, even if we want to be really stingy and say that, at the start of Super, Cabba and Caulifla were half as strong as they were by the U6 tournament, again, a proposal I'd say we have no evidence to support, even at half U6 tournament strength, these are kids that have the strength to defeat Majin Buu if not Super Buuhan. Yes, Dragonball Super takes everything to a new level, but the base U6 saiyans are no joke. At the start of the show's timeline they are already stronger than anything that existed in Z except probably Super Vegetto. Probably.
If the reason why they get Super Saiyan forms is because they are already strong then why hasn't Frost got some kind of Golden form since he has definitely gone through enough fighting to achieve a form.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:27 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Ziegander wrote:I'm gonna just keep bringing it up until more people start acknowledging it...

The U6 Saiyans already were really, really strong in their base forms. We have no reason to believe these kids were much weaker at the start of Super. They don't really talk about having faced Universe-threatening adversity and overcoming the might of gods or anything of the sort in the U6 arc, and they don't mention training with kais or gods or angels. So, even if we want to be really stingy and say that, at the start of Super, Cabba and Caulifla were half as strong as they were by the U6 tournament, again, a proposal I'd say we have no evidence to support, even at half U6 tournament strength, these are kids that have the strength to defeat Majin Buu if not Super Buuhan. Yes, Dragonball Super takes everything to a new level, but the base U6 saiyans are no joke. At the start of the show's timeline they are already stronger than anything that existed in Z except probably Super Vegetto. Probably.
If the reason why they get Super Saiyans ia because they are already strong then why hasn't Frost got some kind of Golden since he has definitely gone through enough fighting to achieve a form.
People were talking about how the U6 saiyans should have just had incredibly powerful base forms. I'm saying they already had incredibly powerful base forms. That's really all that post was about.

However, since you pressed the issue, yes, I also do argue that that's why it's not that big of a deal why the U6 saiyans get the SSJ forms so easily. But that is not the same as saying the reason they get the forms is because they're strong! Their strength is not and should not necessarily be the means by which they acquire new transformations, and the show hasn't shown that to be the case. What I'm saying is, I don't understand why people continue to be so bent out of shape by how easily they are acquiring these transformations when they have base forms that are stronger than any of those transformations were in Z.

Freeza, his golden form, and frost demons have literally nothing to do with any of this. Golden Freeza is an asspull with no explanation for it whatsoever. Why can't Frost achieve the form? What even is the form? No one seems to care. I don't care, full disclosure. It's fun, but Freeza and Frost do not operate the same way saiyans do, so I have no idea why you're trying to draw a false equivalency between them.

While we have in-universe evidence of the Super Saiyan state actually not being dramatically difficult to achieve (Trunks and Goten), Golden Freeza is a transformative power multiplying form created by one character, unique to that character. It has no rules and it works for Freeza because it has his name in it. What we (maybe) know about frost demons is that they devise transformations for themselves to limit their true power. To better control themselves. This would imply that the more power a frost demon puts out, the harder it is to hold themselves back and control that power without destructive consequences. This, however, is not actually borne out by any evidence. 100% full power Final Form Freeza had no trouble controlling his power on Namek. He has no trouble controlling himself in his Golden form (or if he did, he is said to have since mastered that flaw out). Final Form Frost seems to be perfectly capable of controlling himself, in fact, to such a fine degree that he could trade blows with Master Roshi without killing him. So who knows what Golden Freeza is? It's his form. Obviously, for Freeza, it wasn't about whether he had met some arbitrary criteria of "has fought X number of battles." Frost doesn't have a Golden form because he's not Freeza, that's really the end of that particular tale.

Meanwhile, saiyans are saiyans, it seems, regardless of universe. So if Trunks and Goten can easily, without rage or adversity, achieve the Super Saiyan form simply because they were born with a higher power level than their fathers were, then it only stands to reason that Cabba and Caulifla, being exponentially more powerful than Trunks and Goten were when they achieved Super Saiyan, should be able to achieve even higher levels with just as great of ease, if not more so.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:36 pm

Really, the term 'Sue' in regards to Dragon Ball is like using the term 'Edgy' in regards to Sonic the Hedgehog. It's been made a meaningless term.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by RedHeat » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:42 pm

hardcorefakes wrote:
HeroR wrote:
hardcorefakes wrote:
Nope, sorry. I read the manga and still think Caulifla's pretty terrible.
What does have to with my point, especially since my post never mentioned Cali?

Whether you think Cali is terrible or not has nothing to do with Super Saiyan being sacred or not. Or at the very least, it shouldn't be a factor.
Because you were obviously trying to throw shade at her critics with the implication being that people don't know that Trunks and Goten got their forms off-screen, and that they haven't read the manga. So that makes her "okay".
I'm pretty sure they were saying that having her using the Saiyan forms doesn't hold any water in an argument against the character.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by snpaa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:47 pm

HeroR wrote:
hardcorefakes wrote:
Because you were obviously trying to throw shade at her critics with the implication being that people don't know that Trunks and Goten got their forms off-screen, and that they haven't read the manga. So that makes her "okay".
If you’re big criticism of any character is that they transformations too fast and therefore make them less special, that’s a lousy and petty argument for any character for the reasons I named. Doubly so if you don’t know the source material.

If don’t like a character because of their personality, that’s a different matter.
It's not that it's the biggest criticism , it's just one of the faults of hers that's so glaringly apparent right now that many people will make complaints about that first instead of bringing up equally bad past criticisms. I personally find her entire design to be disgusting , it's like toriyama drew a sickly starving african child with protruding rib cage and a head bigger then there torso and presented to me as if it was some badass character.

Also her being a mary sue is a valid complaint , I don't see how you can brush that off as if it's a petty nitpick, the character's development is being handled terribly. Their is a reason why most people give a shit about characters like kid trunks and goten , it's because they barely got any proper development with in the series despite being given powerups to compete with the rest of the cast.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:03 pm

snpaa wrote:
HeroR wrote:
hardcorefakes wrote:
Because you were obviously trying to throw shade at her critics with the implication being that people don't know that Trunks and Goten got their forms off-screen, and that they haven't read the manga. So that makes her "okay".
If you’re big criticism of any character is that they transformations too fast and therefore make them less special, that’s a lousy and petty argument for any character for the reasons I named. Doubly so if you don’t know the source material.

If don’t like a character because of their personality, that’s a different matter.
It's not that it's the biggest criticism , it's just one of the faults of hers that's so glaringly apparent right now that many people will make complaints about that first instead of bringing up equally bad past criticisms. I personally find her entire design to be disgusting , it's like toriyama drew a sickly starving african child with protruding rib cage and a head bigger then there torso and presented to me as if it was some badass character.

Also her being a mary sue is a valid complaint , I don't see how you can brush that off as if it's a petty nitpick, the character's development is being handled terribly. Their is a reason why most people give a shit about characters like kid trunks and goten , it's because they barely got any proper development with in the series despite being given powerups to compete with the rest of the cast.
I wrote an entire post about why Cali and Kale don’t fit the most modern definition of Mary Sue or even the old definition. This isn’t a “nitpick”, these are people using literate term wrong and using it as short hand for, ‘characters I don’t like’.

On the “it's like toriyama drew a sickly starving african child with protruding rib cage and a head bigger then there torso and presented to me as if it was some badass character“.

First, Cali doesn’t look sickly at all if you think she does, you never seen a truly sickly person. And Toriyama most of the time don’t draw his characters to look like ‘badasses’ despite their power. Case in point, Beerus and Whis.

namekiansaiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:
hardcorefakes wrote:
Because you were obviously trying to throw shade at her critics with the implication being that people don't know that Trunks and Goten got their forms off-screen, and that they haven't read the manga. So that makes her "okay".
If you’re big criticism of any character is that they transformations too fast and therefore make them less special, that’s a lousy and petty argument for any character for the reasons I named. Doubly so if you don’t know the source material.

If don’t like a character because of their personality, that’s a different matter.
They don't deserve it, simple as that.
That’s a matter of opinion, not a fact. I mean someone like Piccolo ate people to get the power he has.
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