Ziegander wrote:I'm gonna just keep bringing it up until more people start acknowledging it...
The U6 Saiyans already were really, really strong in their base forms. We have no reason to believe these kids were much weaker at the start of Super. They don't really talk about having faced Universe-threatening adversity and overcoming the might of gods or anything of the sort in the U6 arc, and they don't mention training with kais or gods or angels. So, even if we want to be really stingy and say that, at the start of Super, Cabba and Caulifla were half as strong as they were by the U6 tournament, again, a proposal I'd say we have no evidence to support, even at half U6 tournament strength, these are kids that have the strength to defeat Majin Buu if not Super Buuhan. Yes, Dragonball Super takes everything to a new level, but the base U6 saiyans are no joke. At the start of the show's timeline they are already stronger than anything that existed in Z except probably Super Vegetto. Probably.
If the reason why they get Super Saiyans ia because they are already strong then why hasn't Frost got some kind of Golden since he has definitely gone through enough fighting to achieve a form.
People were talking about how the U6 saiyans should have just had incredibly powerful base forms. I'm saying they already had incredibly powerful base forms. That's really all that post was about.
However, since you pressed the issue, yes, I also do argue that that's why it's not that big of a deal why the U6 saiyans get the SSJ forms so easily. But that is not the same as saying the reason they get the forms is because they're strong! Their strength is not and should not necessarily be the means by which they acquire new transformations, and the show hasn't shown that to be the case. What I'm saying is, I don't understand why people continue to be so bent out of shape by how easily they are acquiring these transformations when they have base forms that are stronger than any of those transformations were in Z.
Freeza, his golden form, and frost demons have literally nothing to do with any of this. Golden Freeza is an asspull with no explanation for it whatsoever. Why can't Frost achieve the form? What even is
the form? No one seems to care. I don't care, full disclosure. It's fun, but Freeza and Frost do not operate the same way saiyans do, so I have no idea why you're trying to draw a false equivalency between them.
While we have in-universe evidence of the Super Saiyan state actually not being dramatically difficult to achieve (Trunks and Goten), Golden Freeza is a transformative power multiplying form created by one character, unique to that character. It has no rules and it works for Freeza because it has his name in it.
What we (maybe) know about frost demons is that they devise transformations for themselves to limit
their true power. To better control themselves. This would imply that the more power a frost demon puts out, the harder it is to hold themselves back and control that power without destructive consequences. This, however, is not actually borne out by any evidence. 100% full power Final Form Freeza had no trouble controlling his power on Namek. He has no trouble controlling himself in his Golden form (or if he did, he is said to have since mastered that flaw out). Final Form Frost seems to be perfectly capable of controlling himself, in fact, to such a fine degree that he could trade blows with Master Roshi without killing him. So who knows what Golden Freeza is? It's his form. Obviously, for Freeza, it wasn't about whether he had met some arbitrary criteria of "has fought X number of battles." Frost doesn't have a Golden form because he's not Freeza, that's really the end of that particular tale.
Meanwhile, saiyans are saiyans, it seems, regardless of universe. So if Trunks and Goten can easily, without rage or adversity, achieve the Super Saiyan form simply because they were born with a higher power level than their fathers were, then it only stands to reason that Cabba and Caulifla, being exponentially more powerful than Trunks and Goten were when they achieved Super Saiyan, should be able to achieve even higher levels with just as great of ease, if not more so.