The gr wrote:The retcon was not even mention,only adding vegetoo was his idea,i guess he use vegetto instead of gogeta because the kaioshin were standing there with a fine set of potara and he is simply popular than gogeta.
The retcon makes no sense, I mean they could use the same excuse to have Shin and Kibito defused again (Dragon Balls), we could even have some casual Vegetto moments later, but I guess a fusion shouldn't get the main kill of the arc in this series for whatever the reason, right? It's a mere fanservice that kinda damages the story for me.
The retcon was invented for Merged Zamasu. He would defuse, and Goku and Vegeta could now win with SSB. Toyo then convinced him to bring back Vegetto, so the retcon was used on him too.
The anime kept it only for Vegetto, and disposed of Zamasu a different way. This is what I'm seeing in all the various translations
Michsi wrote:What I got from this is that the formulation faze of an arc is more or less a group effort. Toriyama, Toyo and Toei staff probably meet to brainstorm and discuss ideas, and Toriyama decides what stays and what goes.
Concerning the Vegetto part - is it really any different than all those times his editors gave him suggestions about this and that? Like changing the main villain of an arc, which is a pretty big deal. We already know Toriyama can put his foot down when he really doesn't want something.
Yeah, otherwise we should start saying Toriyama was "forced" to come up with Androids 16, 17 and 18, to give Cell transformations, and everything else that wasn't originally his idea.
People thinking Toriyama has no power of decision REALLY should remember this is the guy who changed pretty much the entire BoG scenario. Post-Evolution Toriyama seems far from the "eh, do what you want, i just don't care" man back from GT days.
A bit more from the Toriyama/Toyotaro interview:
- Some nice talk in the ToriToyo interview about the struggles of writing a villain that's more complicated than just a bad guy to beat up.
- Toyo notes that Nozawa's Black voice was so sexy, there were many fan letters from girls about her performance
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Why would the Pothala fusion between Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (who is even stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta) and Future Zamas (who's at least SS3 Boo Arc tier and has immortality) be weaker than just Goku SSB? Thank God Toei has its own set of writers.
Last edited by YonedgeHP on Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Between you and the Namekian I think I've lost my touch at genocide. -PSN Xenoverse 2 account: Yonedge-HP. Freeza's race Ki blast avatar: Yonedge.
Filler and canon discussions are "meh"
Noah wrote:
It kinda is. Hybrids are stated to have more potential than full blooded ones since the Saiyan arc, so not a really good comparison with Caulifla and Kale that are Saiyans from another universe which probably had many battles and yet never achieved the transformation before, until Cabba told them about it.
Shhhh.
Don't mention this. It's too logical.
What's logical is that being from a different Universe means they can function differently. None of your bias matters in this case.
Sorry, but that excuse is just a lazy way to justify bad writing. And I'm not sure where people are getting this "different universe, different rules" from. When it's more "different events happening" more than anything else. The rules remain internally consistent for the most part. For example, it's not like we have any reason to believe that mastering ki requires a different method in U6 than it does in U7.
YonedgeHP wrote:Why would the Pothala fusion between Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (who is even stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta) and Future Zamas (who's at least SS3 Boo Arc tier and has immortality) be weaker than just Goku SSB? Thank God Toei has its own set of writers.
In both the manga and anime, Future Zamasu is stronger than that.
The only explanation is that Black and Zamasu were even weaker in the original outline. I actually want to see how that would even work.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
What's logical is that being from a different Universe means they can function differently. None of your bias matters in this case.
Sorry, but that excuse is just a lazy way to justify bad writing. And I'm not sure where people are getting this "different universe, different rules" from. When it's more "different events happening" more than anything else. The rules remain internally consistent for the most part. For example, it's not like we have any reason to believe that mastering ki requires a different method in U6 than it does in U7.
It has nothing to do with "bias".
The Universe 6 Kaioshin straight up says that the Saiyans in his universe have undergone a different evolution than the Universe 7 Saiyans in episode 37. Whether the argument is about the SSJ transformation or not, I don't know how much clearer you can get that these saiyans are different.
Lord Beerus wrote:A bit more from the Toriyama/Toyotaro interview:
- Some nice talk in the ToriToyo interview about the struggles of writing a villain that's more complicated than just a bad guy to beat up.
- Toyo notes that Nozawa's Black voice was so sexy, there were many fan letters from girls about her performance
The likes of Kishimoto are better in that aspect.
Sorachi, Araki are probably the best imo.
Anime Black kinda reminded me of a JoJo antagonist.
The only way to make sense of the whole Merged vs SSB thing would be that Merged Zamasu would separate because of the pothala, and the SSBs would be strong enough to beat the Zamasus by separate. Then again, that would make SSR Black weaker than a SSB...which would kind of fit with Vegeta's speech about Saiyan Cells, yet would be extremely underwhelming.
I kinda expected Toriyama to say something about the great ending of this arc to be honest.
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.
Michsi wrote:What I got from this is that the formulation faze of an arc is more or less a group effort. Toriyama, Toyo and Toei staff probably meet to brainstorm and discuss ideas, and Toriyama decides what stays and what goes.
Concerning the Vegetto part - is it really any different than all those times his editors gave him suggestions about this and that? Like changing the main villain of an arc, which is a pretty big deal. We already know Toriyama can put his foot down when he really doesn't want something.
Except that’s not what happened with GT at all.
They ran the plot points through Toriyama first just like with Super and they got his input on it. If I remember the interview correctly he was even involved in meetings. Sounds like the production of Super is much closer to GT than it is to his manga or Z.
Yeah, otherwise we should start saying Toriyama was "forced" to come up with Androids 16, 17 and 18, to give Cell transformations, and everything else that wasn't originally his idea.
People thinking Toriyama has no power of decision REALLY should remember this is the guy who changed pretty much the entire BoG scenario. Post-Evolution Toriyama seems far from the "eh, do what you want, i just don't care" man back from GT days.
Lord Beerus wrote:A bit more from the Toriyama/Toyotaro interview:
- Some nice talk in the ToriToyo interview about the struggles of writing a villain that's more complicated than just a bad guy to beat up.
- Toyo notes that Nozawa's Black voice was so sexy, there were many fan letters from girls about her performance
The likes of Kishimoto are better in that aspect.
Sorachi, Araki are probably the best imo.
Anime Black kinda reminded me of a JoJo antagonist.
I heavily disagree with that. I can named several that did it better than Kishimoto.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
YonedgeHP wrote:Why would the Pothala fusion between Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (who is even stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta) and Future Zamas (who's at least SS3 Boo Arc tier and has immortality) be weaker than just Goku SSB? Thank God Toei has its own set of writers.
HeroR wrote:In both the manga and anime, Future Zamasu is stronger than that.
The only explanation is that Black and Zamasu were even weaker in the original outline. I actually want to see how that would even work.
Regular Zamasu was stated to be weaker than ssj2 Trunks, so he probably isn't stronger or even at ssj3 Buu saga tier in power. And SSR Black was SSB tier, not above. And I'm pretty sure the interview said they could beat him together as SSB, not by themselves (besides mastered SSB). It's like the same with Golden Frieza. He was stronger than 1 SSB, but together they would stomp him.
Last edited by dragon boss z on Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
HeroR wrote:
I heavily disagree with that. I can named several that did it better than Kishimoto.
Oh sorry, I meant that even the likes of Kishimoto are better than Toriyama when it comes to making villains "complex".(Kishi did a good job with Zabusa, Pain, Kisame even Itachi)
Today we live in an Era where fans love complex villains, one of the reasons why Bleach was popular during the Arrancar Saga, because the fans loved Espadas(Ulquiorra, Nnotria, Grimmjow) and of course Aizen.
While currently in DBS we have Jiren, who is like a joke compared to the Espadas, Akatsuki, Genei Ryodan, Yonkou, etc. The ToP shouldve built up more antagonists, its probably one of the biggest flaws the arc has imo.
Lord Beerus wrote:
- Merged Zamasu wasn't all that strong in the original draft and two Super Saiyan Blue's(Goku and Vegeta) would have been able to handle him. So basically the anime staff chose to beef up Merged Zamasu's strength, so that beyond his immortality, he was a genuine threat in battle. While Merged Zamasu remained below the realm of SSJB in the manga, as originally intended in Toriyama's plot outline.
It sounds like you are misinterpreting it or maybe you wrote it out wrong. Two SSB could handle him, but he is still above one SSB.
HeroR wrote:
I heavily disagree with that. I can named several that did it better than Kishimoto.
Oh sorry, I meant that even the likes of Kishimoto are better than Toriyama when it comes to making villains "complex".(Kishi did a good job with Zabusa, Pain, Kisame even Itachi)
Today we live in an Era where fans love complex villains, one of the reasons why Bleach was popular during the Arrancar Saga, because the fans loved Espadas(Ulquiorra, Nnotria, Grimmjow) and of course Aizen.
While currently in DBS we have Jiren, who is like a joke compared to the Espadas, Akatsuki, Genei Ryodan, Yonkou, etc. The ToP shouldve built up more antagonists, its probably one of the biggest flaws the arc has imo.
But none of the people you named are complexed.
Also, people liked different the of villains, not necessarily those who have great motives than being a dick. Why do you think people loved Disney villains despite most of them being evil for the sake of it. And Jiren isn't even a villain. He's just the strongest antagonist in the ring.
dragon boss z wrote:
YonedgeHP wrote:Why would the Pothala fusion between Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (who is even stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta) and Future Zamas (who's at least SS3 Boo Arc tier and has immortality) be weaker than just Goku SSB? Thank God Toei has its own set of writers.
HeroR wrote:In both the manga and anime, Future Zamasu is stronger than that.
The only explanation is that Black and Zamasu were even weaker in the original outline. I actually want to see how that would even work.
Regular Zamasu was stated to be weaker than ssj2 Trunks, so he probably isn't stronger or even at ssj3 Buu saga tier in power. And SSR Black was SSB tier, not above. And I'm pretty sure the interview said they could beat him together as SSB, not by themselves (besides mastered SSB). It's like the same with Golden Frieza. He was stronger than 1 SSB, but together they would stomp him.
Trunks was even with Goku who currently took a roar from a God of Destruction that caused the Supreme Kais to faint while remained conscious in base form.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
hardcorefakes wrote:Sorry, but that excuse is just a lazy way to justify bad writing. And I'm not sure where people are getting this "different universe, different rules" from. When it's more "different events happening" more than anything else. The rules remain internally consistent for the most part. For example, it's not like we have any reason to believe that mastering ki requires a different method in U6 than it does in U7. It has nothing to do with "bias".
The Universe 6 Kaioshin straight up says that the Saiyans in his universe have undergone a different evolution than the Universe 7 Saiyans in episode 37. Whether the argument is about the SSJ transformation or not, I don't know how much clearer you can get that these saiyans are different.
Well then, if they are so different then why not have them with unique Super Saiyan transformations? Even if they have a different evolution from the U7 Saiyans they still can acquire the same transformation, so people can question it's methods.
Lord Beerus wrote:- Toyo notes that Nozawa's Black voice was so sexy, there were many fan letters from girls about her performance
That's quite amusing, I also think the same about Black voice, but didn't expect it would atract fan girls
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
HeroR wrote:
Trunks was even with Goku who currently took a roar from a God of Destruction that caused the Supreme Kais to faint while remained conscious in base form.
That same roar seemed to affect the GoD just as much as base Goku, so is base Goku and Trunks GoD tier? It may be more of a max power thing. I don't know the manga scaling was a little weird because it also makes it seem ssj2 Vegeta is leagues above ssj3 Goku. But to make sense of this lets say Goku and Vegeta are equal, then ssj2 Trunks<=base Black<ssj Black<ssj2 Vegeta=ssj2 Goku. Though it's impossible to say. However the fight between Trunks and Goku to me seemed like it was meant to show Trunks' power against ssj3, which doesn't work if Goku's current ssj3 is leagues above before, however I do think it is above Buu saga ssj3, however his ssj2 should still be below. But if Goku's ssj2 is equal to Vegeta's, then I would say Goku was holding back to his Buu saga strength against Trunks, and his actual ssj2 and 3 are far above Trunks.
Boo Machine wrote:
The Universe 6 Kaioshin straight up says that the Saiyans in his universe have undergone a different evolution than the Universe 7 Saiyans in episode 37. Whether the argument is about the SSJ transformation or not, I don't know how much clearer you can get that these saiyans are different.
Well then, if they are so different then why not have them with unique Super Saiyan transformations? Even if they have a different evolution from the U7 Saiyans they still can acquire the same transformation, so people can question it's methods.
You can question it's methods all you want, that doesn't change the fact that they are different and your guesses are as good as mine when it comes to stuff about these saiyans they don't blatantly tell us.
Boo Machine wrote:
The Universe 6 Kaioshin straight up says that the Saiyans in his universe have undergone a different evolution than the Universe 7 Saiyans in episode 37. Whether the argument is about the SSJ transformation or not, I don't know how much clearer you can get that these saiyans are different.
Well then, if they are so different then why not have them with unique Super Saiyan transformations? Even if they have a different evolution from the U7 Saiyans they still can acquire the same transformation, so people can question it's methods.
You can question it's methods all you want, that doesn't change the fact that they are different and your guesses are as good as mine when it comes to stuff about these saiyans they don't blatantly tell us.
They evolved differently (which is more of events being different than rules being different regardless).
That doesn't mean their "powers" work differently. That goes beyond simple evolution. You're basically telling us to not think about it because they're from a different universe.
