"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Artorias » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:29 pm

HeroR wrote:
Artorias wrote:
I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.

But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.

And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?

Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.
There is a lot of anime, manga, comics, ect that centers around overpowered protagonists like One Punch Man, most Superman comics, Rurouni Kenshin. There is even a troper called Showy Invincible Hero.

Dragon Ball has had protagonists be overpowered compare to the threat. The first story arc of Dragon Ball has Goku be stronger than everyone outside of the Ox King. Goku wiped the Red Ribbon Army with only Blue and Tao giving him any real challenge and then after Goku trained with Korin he stomped everyone. Grandpa Gohan only did anything by grabbing Goku's tail. Goku vs. Tien was far more one-sided in the manga with Goku having the advantage for most of the fight. It wasn't until 'Z' that the protagonists were the 'underdogs' and even then, the protagonists overwhelmed 19 and 20 and then Cell at several points. Buu Saga started with the protagonists being overpowered until Buu came.

Also, 'Fists of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult', huh? Where in the world did hear that? Have you watched Fist of the North Star? That is the show where people's heads explode and people wondered how it was rated for kids. Comparing it to Yugioh of all things, and I like Yugioh, is the strangest thing I have read in awhile. Also, Fists of the North Star's writing is far more mature than Dragon Ball even without the violence.
I made it pretty clear that I hadn't watched Fist of the North Star, and that my perception could be totally wrong. And I guess it was. The only familiarity I have with Fist of the North Star is those "you're already dead memes". Other than that, no real clue about the actual quality of the content. Like I said, I guess I was wrong and I now know it. I was just always under the impression that it was a nostalgia kids thing because I have never heard an adult talk about it in any other context except how cool it was as a kid.

And my point still stands that I think modern Dragon Ball at this point needs to have tension and a major obstacle to overcome to remain interesting. I don't see how it could last otherwise.
Totamo wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Totamo wrote:That is extremely incorrect. Fist of the North star's protagonist beat the shit out of everyone he came across. He was insanely OP, yet his story is one of the most beloved shonen ever made as with violence jack. OP protagonists are nothing new and there are people out there who like them as they are a power fantasy which dragon ball is to a lot pf people.


Tension, stakes or drama isn't needed to make a good story, they are plenty out there that don't. All story needs to be good is cohesive and entertaining , anything else is extra. IMO, this arc has only been one of those and not all the time.
I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.

But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.

And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?

Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.
Thats what shonen was before dragon ball. An unstoppable badass plowing through enemies like because it was fun to fantasize about.

And what are you talking about? Goku rarely struggled against anyone in the First arc or second except Roshi. In fact, every tournament arc Goku basically destroys everybody except maybe 2 people. Even in z they were never framed as underdogs. Gohan was considered to be a warrior with mass potential. The saiyans are literally called natural born fighters. Underdogs does not mean weaker than the bad guy, it means a predicted loser that comes out on top in the end. That only happened to Goku and Gohan. The humans and namekians were both slaughtered and never came out on top.


Fist of the north star is only called that by and look down upon in the west but you know what, so is Dragon Ball Z and One Piece. They all have what you call tension and drama but they are still called kid shows. Hell, Broly is everything people stereotype Dragon ball z to be and he is the definition of a power fantasy which is the main reason why people love him and hate him so much

My point is, You can make an overpowered protagonist and still tell a good story. One punch man is literally that and even though its a parody, its fights are held higher the shows with actually tension.
They were absolutely framed as underdogs in Z. Think about the intimidating nature of Vegeta, how it took THREE people in a desperate bloody struggle just to push him back, and he was STILL alive after it all. Think about the OP nature of Freeza until Goku got Super Saiyan. Think about Cell and Buu with their neverending transformations that allowed them to stomp anyone that dared think they could surpass them. Until the end, every arc of DBZ was the villain dominating and putting the heroes up against the wall. And every one of them except for Freeza were BARELY defeated at the last second with the heroes pulling out every last once of power in a desperate life or death struggle.

I don't get that vibe at all in this tournament, or most of Super for that matter. I see a bunch of fodder jokes that serve as a vessel to deliver fan service where the writers can be all "look how COOL they are guys, isn't this COOL?" Yes, it's cool, but at the cost of the tension. It's not fun to just watch the protagonist dominate with the exception of a few franchises, which are exceptions for a reason. The writers crafted those stories specifically with the intention of having an OP hero. That's the entire POINT of the show, and the drama comes more from the people around the hero, rather than the hero's struggle itself. But Dragon Ball isn't built like that right now. It NEEDS a foe or foes to push the heroes to their limits to remain interesting, like most shows.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:18 am

HeroR wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
After this tweet from Toshio, did he write an episode where Vegeta did something cool?
I don't know when he wrote the twitter, but for reference he wrote: 107, 112, 115, and 121. Also, it was never stated that the 'cool moment' was for this arc.
Really, at the end of the day, Toshio saying he wrote a cool Vegeta moment means NOTHING. Because what people consider a cool character moment differs from person to person, with some only applying cool as in an epic battle or a moment of overpowering an opponent, where others would simply say it's a cool line, and I would say it can be something as simple as a small acknowledgment of character from Vegeta. So, Toshio tweets mean nothing because we don't really know what he constitutes as a cool moment, as well as the fact that a cool moment can take place no matter if Vegeta is eliminated or not.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:44 am

Artorias wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Artorias wrote:
I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.

But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.

And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?

Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.
There is a lot of anime, manga, comics, ect that centers around overpowered protagonists like One Punch Man, most Superman comics, Rurouni Kenshin. There is even a troper called Showy Invincible Hero.

Dragon Ball has had protagonists be overpowered compare to the threat. The first story arc of Dragon Ball has Goku be stronger than everyone outside of the Ox King. Goku wiped the Red Ribbon Army with only Blue and Tao giving him any real challenge and then after Goku trained with Korin he stomped everyone. Grandpa Gohan only did anything by grabbing Goku's tail. Goku vs. Tien was far more one-sided in the manga with Goku having the advantage for most of the fight. It wasn't until 'Z' that the protagonists were the 'underdogs' and even then, the protagonists overwhelmed 19 and 20 and then Cell at several points. Buu Saga started with the protagonists being overpowered until Buu came.

Also, 'Fists of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult', huh? Where in the world did hear that? Have you watched Fist of the North Star? That is the show where people's heads explode and people wondered how it was rated for kids. Comparing it to Yugioh of all things, and I like Yugioh, is the strangest thing I have read in awhile. Also, Fists of the North Star's writing is far more mature than Dragon Ball even without the violence.
I made it pretty clear that I hadn't watched Fist of the North Star, and that my perception could be totally wrong. And I guess it was. The only familiarity I have with Fist of the North Star is those "you're already dead memes". Other than that, no real clue about the actual quality of the content. Like I said, I guess I was wrong and I now know it. I was just always under the impression that it was a nostalgia kids thing because I have never heard an adult talk about it in any other context except how cool it was as a kid.

And my point still stands that I think modern Dragon Ball at this point needs to have tension and a major obstacle to overcome to remain interesting. I don't see how it could last otherwise.
Totamo wrote:
Artorias wrote:
I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.

But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.

And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?

Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.
Thats what shonen was before dragon ball. An unstoppable badass plowing through enemies like because it was fun to fantasize about.

And what are you talking about? Goku rarely struggled against anyone in the First arc or second except Roshi. In fact, every tournament arc Goku basically destroys everybody except maybe 2 people. Even in z they were never framed as underdogs. Gohan was considered to be a warrior with mass potential. The saiyans are literally called natural born fighters. Underdogs does not mean weaker than the bad guy, it means a predicted loser that comes out on top in the end. That only happened to Goku and Gohan. The humans and namekians were both slaughtered and never came out on top.


Fist of the north star is only called that by and look down upon in the west but you know what, so is Dragon Ball Z and One Piece. They all have what you call tension and drama but they are still called kid shows. Hell, Broly is everything people stereotype Dragon ball z to be and he is the definition of a power fantasy which is the main reason why people love him and hate him so much

My point is, You can make an overpowered protagonist and still tell a good story. One punch man is literally that and even though its a parody, its fights are held higher the shows with actually tension.
They were absolutely framed as underdogs in Z. Think about the intimidating nature of Vegeta, how it took THREE people in a desperate bloody struggle just to push him back, and he was STILL alive after it all. Think about the OP nature of Freeza until Goku got Super Saiyan. Think about Cell and Buu with their neverending transformations that allowed them to stomp anyone that dared think they could surpass them. Until the end, every arc of DBZ was the villain dominating and putting the heroes up against the wall. And every one of them except for Freeza were BARELY defeated at the last second with the heroes pulling out every last once of power in a desperate life or death struggle.

I don't get that vibe at all in this tournament, or most of Super for that matter. I see a bunch of fodder jokes that serve as a vessel to deliver fan service where the writers can be all "look how COOL they are guys, isn't this COOL?" Yes, it's cool, but at the cost of the tension. It's not fun to just watch the protagonist dominate with the exception of a few franchises, which are exceptions for a reason. The writers crafted those stories specifically with the intention of having an OP hero. That's the entire POINT of the show, and the drama comes more from the people around the hero, rather than the hero's struggle itself. But Dragon Ball isn't built like that right now. It NEEDS a foe or foes to push the heroes to their limits to remain interesting, like most shows.
What?! Goku broke Nappa's back and forced Vegeta to Great Ape, how is that an underdog moment? Piccolo could have killed second form freeza if he went all out, Cell could have been killed so many times before he even went perfect and it was Gohan's arrogance that made that fight so hard and Goku could have beaten Buu if he went all out.


Freeza vs Goku and ssj1 Gohan were the only underdog fights in z, everything else was caused by the heroes themselves.



Look, the most popular movie villain is Broly, a high power leveled, hugely muscled brute who beat the shit out of everyone. The most popular Gohan is super saiyan when he is one shotting cell jrs and beating up cell. Most fans favorite character moments are not when they are losing, but dominating. What does that tell you?Look at Vegeta going super saiyan and demolishing 19. Come on.

the 80's action flicks were all this, you know the ones kids idolize and want to be when the grow up.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Artorias » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:07 am

Totamo wrote:
Artorias wrote:
HeroR wrote:
There is a lot of anime, manga, comics, ect that centers around overpowered protagonists like One Punch Man, most Superman comics, Rurouni Kenshin. There is even a troper called Showy Invincible Hero.

Dragon Ball has had protagonists be overpowered compare to the threat. The first story arc of Dragon Ball has Goku be stronger than everyone outside of the Ox King. Goku wiped the Red Ribbon Army with only Blue and Tao giving him any real challenge and then after Goku trained with Korin he stomped everyone. Grandpa Gohan only did anything by grabbing Goku's tail. Goku vs. Tien was far more one-sided in the manga with Goku having the advantage for most of the fight. It wasn't until 'Z' that the protagonists were the 'underdogs' and even then, the protagonists overwhelmed 19 and 20 and then Cell at several points. Buu Saga started with the protagonists being overpowered until Buu came.

Also, 'Fists of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult', huh? Where in the world did hear that? Have you watched Fist of the North Star? That is the show where people's heads explode and people wondered how it was rated for kids. Comparing it to Yugioh of all things, and I like Yugioh, is the strangest thing I have read in awhile. Also, Fists of the North Star's writing is far more mature than Dragon Ball even without the violence.
I made it pretty clear that I hadn't watched Fist of the North Star, and that my perception could be totally wrong. And I guess it was. The only familiarity I have with Fist of the North Star is those "you're already dead memes". Other than that, no real clue about the actual quality of the content. Like I said, I guess I was wrong and I now know it. I was just always under the impression that it was a nostalgia kids thing because I have never heard an adult talk about it in any other context except how cool it was as a kid.

And my point still stands that I think modern Dragon Ball at this point needs to have tension and a major obstacle to overcome to remain interesting. I don't see how it could last otherwise.
Totamo wrote: Thats what shonen was before dragon ball. An unstoppable badass plowing through enemies like because it was fun to fantasize about.

And what are you talking about? Goku rarely struggled against anyone in the First arc or second except Roshi. In fact, every tournament arc Goku basically destroys everybody except maybe 2 people. Even in z they were never framed as underdogs. Gohan was considered to be a warrior with mass potential. The saiyans are literally called natural born fighters. Underdogs does not mean weaker than the bad guy, it means a predicted loser that comes out on top in the end. That only happened to Goku and Gohan. The humans and namekians were both slaughtered and never came out on top.


Fist of the north star is only called that by and look down upon in the west but you know what, so is Dragon Ball Z and One Piece. They all have what you call tension and drama but they are still called kid shows. Hell, Broly is everything people stereotype Dragon ball z to be and he is the definition of a power fantasy which is the main reason why people love him and hate him so much

My point is, You can make an overpowered protagonist and still tell a good story. One punch man is literally that and even though its a parody, its fights are held higher the shows with actually tension.
They were absolutely framed as underdogs in Z. Think about the intimidating nature of Vegeta, how it took THREE people in a desperate bloody struggle just to push him back, and he was STILL alive after it all. Think about the OP nature of Freeza until Goku got Super Saiyan. Think about Cell and Buu with their neverending transformations that allowed them to stomp anyone that dared think they could surpass them. Until the end, every arc of DBZ was the villain dominating and putting the heroes up against the wall. And every one of them except for Freeza were BARELY defeated at the last second with the heroes pulling out every last once of power in a desperate life or death struggle.

I don't get that vibe at all in this tournament, or most of Super for that matter. I see a bunch of fodder jokes that serve as a vessel to deliver fan service where the writers can be all "look how COOL they are guys, isn't this COOL?" Yes, it's cool, but at the cost of the tension. It's not fun to just watch the protagonist dominate with the exception of a few franchises, which are exceptions for a reason. The writers crafted those stories specifically with the intention of having an OP hero. That's the entire POINT of the show, and the drama comes more from the people around the hero, rather than the hero's struggle itself. But Dragon Ball isn't built like that right now. It NEEDS a foe or foes to push the heroes to their limits to remain interesting, like most shows.
What?! Goku broke Nappa's back and forced Vegeta to Great Ape, how is that an underdog moment? Piccolo could have killed second form freeza if he went all out, Cell could have been killed so many times before he even went perfect and it was Gohan's arrogance that made that fight so hard and Goku could have beaten Buu if he went all out.


Freeza vs Goku and ssj1 Gohan were the only underdog fights in z, everything else was caused by the heroes themselves.



Look, the most popular movie villain is Broly, a high power leveled, hugely muscled brute who beat the shit out of everyone. The most popular Gohan is super saiyan when he is one shotting cell jrs and beating up cell. Most fans favorite character moments are not when they are losing, but dominating. What does that tell you?Look at Vegeta going super saiyan and demolishing 19. Come on.

the 80's action flicks were all this, you know the ones kids idolize and want to be when the grow up.
Goku was a complete underdog in that fight against Vegeta...I'm not saying you can't ever have the heroes do ANYTHING cool, so wrecking Nappa was fine, but you're ignoring the absolute terrifying nature of Nappa before he showed up. We saw EVERYONE get absolutely DEMOLISHED by him. He was a THREAT. He created TENSION. As did Vegeta when he turned Great Ape and DAMN NEAR beat THREE of our guys at once.

Same goes for the other arcs. The fact that there are moments of Cell getting rekt doesn't change the fact that overall, he was still consistently a threat that required massive amounts of training, and in the end he was only beat because of a freakish little boy that pulled a new form out of his ass. I am not saying that you need the heroes to be CONSTANT underdogs 100% of the time. Obviously you have to have that cathartic moment of them getting some shine. But OVERALL, the general sense, I feel, should be one of an overwhelming challenge that requires digging deep.

And the REASON that the most famous moments are them "dominating" is because of the cathartic nature of watching heroes best someone they previously struggled with. Don't you see that? It's not inherently meaningful or memorable to watch Gohan beat the fuck out of Cell on its own, it's only so awesome BECAUSE of what Cell had previously done. The STRUGGLE beforehand is what MAKES the final push for victory exciting. There's nothing inherently fun for most people simply watching Goku or whoever beat up some random thug with no presence. That would be boring as hell.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Supersaiyanbulla » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:29 am

Man literally half the youtubers are in denial it’s like there ignoring the preview especially qaaman land, and rhythmstye.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:06 am

Supersaiyanbulla wrote:Man literally half the youtubers are in denial it’s like there ignoring the preview especially qaaman land, and rhythmstye.
Damn man, youve been everywhere about vegeta. Can you not hype it up too much tho? I think you know as well as i that once the vegeta moment in the episode is over, jiren will comeout unscathe. Vegeta is going to shine, but he is still far from G.o.D level.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Wilderness » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:37 am

Artorias wrote:
Totamo wrote:
Artorias wrote:
I made it pretty clear that I hadn't watched Fist of the North Star, and that my perception could be totally wrong. And I guess it was. The only familiarity I have with Fist of the North Star is those "you're already dead memes". Other than that, no real clue about the actual quality of the content. Like I said, I guess I was wrong and I now know it. I was just always under the impression that it was a nostalgia kids thing because I have never heard an adult talk about it in any other context except how cool it was as a kid.

And my point still stands that I think modern Dragon Ball at this point needs to have tension and a major obstacle to overcome to remain interesting. I don't see how it could last otherwise.



They were absolutely framed as underdogs in Z. Think about the intimidating nature of Vegeta, how it took THREE people in a desperate bloody struggle just to push him back, and he was STILL alive after it all. Think about the OP nature of Freeza until Goku got Super Saiyan. Think about Cell and Buu with their neverending transformations that allowed them to stomp anyone that dared think they could surpass them. Until the end, every arc of DBZ was the villain dominating and putting the heroes up against the wall. And every one of them except for Freeza were BARELY defeated at the last second with the heroes pulling out every last once of power in a desperate life or death struggle.

I don't get that vibe at all in this tournament, or most of Super for that matter. I see a bunch of fodder jokes that serve as a vessel to deliver fan service where the writers can be all "look how COOL they are guys, isn't this COOL?" Yes, it's cool, but at the cost of the tension. It's not fun to just watch the protagonist dominate with the exception of a few franchises, which are exceptions for a reason. The writers crafted those stories specifically with the intention of having an OP hero. That's the entire POINT of the show, and the drama comes more from the people around the hero, rather than the hero's struggle itself. But Dragon Ball isn't built like that right now. It NEEDS a foe or foes to push the heroes to their limits to remain interesting, like most shows.
What?! Goku broke Nappa's back and forced Vegeta to Great Ape, how is that an underdog moment? Piccolo could have killed second form freeza if he went all out, Cell could have been killed so many times before he even went perfect and it was Gohan's arrogance that made that fight so hard and Goku could have beaten Buu if he went all out.


Freeza vs Goku and ssj1 Gohan were the only underdog fights in z, everything else was caused by the heroes themselves.



Look, the most popular movie villain is Broly, a high power leveled, hugely muscled brute who beat the shit out of everyone. The most popular Gohan is super saiyan when he is one shotting cell jrs and beating up cell. Most fans favorite character moments are not when they are losing, but dominating. What does that tell you?Look at Vegeta going super saiyan and demolishing 19. Come on.

the 80's action flicks were all this, you know the ones kids idolize and want to be when the grow up.
Goku was a complete underdog in that fight against Vegeta...I'm not saying you can't ever have the heroes do ANYTHING cool, so wrecking Nappa was fine, but you're ignoring the absolute terrifying nature of Nappa before he showed up. We saw EVERYONE get absolutely DEMOLISHED by him. He was a THREAT. He created TENSION. As did Vegeta when he turned Great Ape and DAMN NEAR beat THREE of our guys at once.

Same goes for the other arcs. The fact that there are moments of Cell getting rekt doesn't change the fact that overall, he was still consistently a threat that required massive amounts of training, and in the end he was only beat because of a freakish little boy that pulled a new form out of his ass. I am not saying that you need the heroes to be CONSTANT underdogs 100% of the time. Obviously you have to have that cathartic moment of them getting some shine. But OVERALL, the general sense, I feel, should be one of an overwhelming challenge that requires digging deep.

And the REASON that the most famous moments are them "dominating" is because of the cathartic nature of watching heroes best someone they previously struggled with. Don't you see that? It's not inherently meaningful or memorable to watch Gohan beat the fuck out of Cell on its own, it's only so awesome BECAUSE of what Cell had previously done. The STRUGGLE beforehand is what MAKES the final push for victory exciting. There's nothing inherently fun for most people simply watching Goku or whoever beat up some random thug with no presence. That would be boring as hell.
What’s with the RANDOM capital letters THROUGHOUT your POST?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:38 am

Artorias wrote:
Totamo wrote:
Artorias wrote:
I made it pretty clear that I hadn't watched Fist of the North Star, and that my perception could be totally wrong. And I guess it was. The only familiarity I have with Fist of the North Star is those "you're already dead memes". Other than that, no real clue about the actual quality of the content. Like I said, I guess I was wrong and I now know it. I was just always under the impression that it was a nostalgia kids thing because I have never heard an adult talk about it in any other context except how cool it was as a kid.

And my point still stands that I think modern Dragon Ball at this point needs to have tension and a major obstacle to overcome to remain interesting. I don't see how it could last otherwise.



They were absolutely framed as underdogs in Z. Think about the intimidating nature of Vegeta, how it took THREE people in a desperate bloody struggle just to push him back, and he was STILL alive after it all. Think about the OP nature of Freeza until Goku got Super Saiyan. Think about Cell and Buu with their neverending transformations that allowed them to stomp anyone that dared think they could surpass them. Until the end, every arc of DBZ was the villain dominating and putting the heroes up against the wall. And every one of them except for Freeza were BARELY defeated at the last second with the heroes pulling out every last once of power in a desperate life or death struggle.

I don't get that vibe at all in this tournament, or most of Super for that matter. I see a bunch of fodder jokes that serve as a vessel to deliver fan service where the writers can be all "look how COOL they are guys, isn't this COOL?" Yes, it's cool, but at the cost of the tension. It's not fun to just watch the protagonist dominate with the exception of a few franchises, which are exceptions for a reason. The writers crafted those stories specifically with the intention of having an OP hero. That's the entire POINT of the show, and the drama comes more from the people around the hero, rather than the hero's struggle itself. But Dragon Ball isn't built like that right now. It NEEDS a foe or foes to push the heroes to their limits to remain interesting, like most shows.
What?! Goku broke Nappa's back and forced Vegeta to Great Ape, how is that an underdog moment? Piccolo could have killed second form freeza if he went all out, Cell could have been killed so many times before he even went perfect and it was Gohan's arrogance that made that fight so hard and Goku could have beaten Buu if he went all out.


Freeza vs Goku and ssj1 Gohan were the only underdog fights in z, everything else was caused by the heroes themselves.



Look, the most popular movie villain is Broly, a high power leveled, hugely muscled brute who beat the shit out of everyone. The most popular Gohan is super saiyan when he is one shotting cell jrs and beating up cell. Most fans favorite character moments are not when they are losing, but dominating. What does that tell you?Look at Vegeta going super saiyan and demolishing 19. Come on.

the 80's action flicks were all this, you know the ones kids idolize and want to be when the grow up.
Goku was a complete underdog in that fight against Vegeta...I'm not saying you can't ever have the heroes do ANYTHING cool, so wrecking Nappa was fine, but you're ignoring the absolute terrifying nature of Nappa before he showed up. We saw EVERYONE get absolutely DEMOLISHED by him. He was a THREAT. He created TENSION. As did Vegeta when he turned Great Ape and DAMN NEAR beat THREE of our guys at once.

Same goes for the other arcs. The fact that there are moments of Cell getting rekt doesn't change the fact that overall, he was still consistently a threat that required massive amounts of training, and in the end he was only beat because of a freakish little boy that pulled a new form out of his ass. I am not saying that you need the heroes to be CONSTANT underdogs 100% of the time. Obviously you have to have that cathartic moment of them getting some shine. But OVERALL, the general sense, I feel, should be one of an overwhelming challenge that requires digging deep.

And the REASON that the most famous moments are them "dominating" is because of the cathartic nature of watching heroes best someone they previously struggled with. Don't you see that? It's not inherently meaningful or memorable to watch Gohan beat the fuck out of Cell on its own, it's only so awesome BECAUSE of what Cell had previously done. The STRUGGLE beforehand is what MAKES the final push for victory exciting. There's nothing inherently fun for most people simply watching Goku or whoever beat up some random thug with no presence. That would be boring as hell.
I just told you an underdog is a predicted loser who comes out on top and guess what, if Goku wasn't involved that never happened. They just lost. You are looking at everyone and calling them underdogs but no, they just sucked and the villains were too stupid and didn't kill them before Goku got there. People root for the underdog because they will find a way to win but look in dragon ball that is only Goku or his son.




And second? This is definition of Broly and as I said before, he is the most popular movie villain. He literally did not struggle for any of his power and just kicked ass and like I said for a lot of people he is the stereotype of what dragon ball is even those who love him. Explain how that character is about the struggle you claim dragon ball is about and i will concede.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:56 am

Damn, 2018 is gonna start good... I hope Vegeta to be merciful with Jiren as he knows he can't kill in this tournament.

Wilderness wrote:What’s with the RANDOM capital letters THROUGHOUT your POST?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Olympian » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:54 pm

Lionel wrote:The model of fights tend to be universalised. I'm not sure how people can single out distinctive traits when you have over 90% of the cast using the same general choreographic punches and kicks. Few exceptions like Hit's Phoenix Eye Fist and Napapa's sumo themed moves tend to be pointed out either in words or actions. Our only hint of identity as to what it is characters like Goku use was an off-hand quote given all the way back at the beginning of the original DB when he stated that his grandfather had taught him Kung-Fu. Ever since then we've failed to see much shift from how he fights except for the diminished effort to portray the exchanges specifically and replacing them with indeterminable motion blurs. Usually the difference between fighters lies in their energy based attacks. In terms of versatility and efficiency, the earthlings are on par with the aliens, if not superior.

Other universes don't seem to have too much of a disadvantage when it comes to "finesse". More often than not it was thanks to raw power that U7 has been able to win.
Very true in the current series but not true at all in the OG series and that is where finesse comes in as the advantage on top of raw power escalation that was progressed along the years in the Manga.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Artorias » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:34 pm

Wilderness wrote:
What’s with the RANDOM capital letters THROUGHOUT your POST?
I have a VERY BIZARRE way of TYPING sometimes lmao. I TEND to just use those for EMPHASIS as a HABIT.
Totamo wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Totamo wrote: What?! Goku broke Nappa's back and forced Vegeta to Great Ape, how is that an underdog moment? Piccolo could have killed second form freeza if he went all out, Cell could have been killed so many times before he even went perfect and it was Gohan's arrogance that made that fight so hard and Goku could have beaten Buu if he went all out.


Freeza vs Goku and ssj1 Gohan were the only underdog fights in z, everything else was caused by the heroes themselves.



Look, the most popular movie villain is Broly, a high power leveled, hugely muscled brute who beat the shit out of everyone. The most popular Gohan is super saiyan when he is one shotting cell jrs and beating up cell. Most fans favorite character moments are not when they are losing, but dominating. What does that tell you?Look at Vegeta going super saiyan and demolishing 19. Come on.

the 80's action flicks were all this, you know the ones kids idolize and want to be when the grow up.
Goku was a complete underdog in that fight against Vegeta...I'm not saying you can't ever have the heroes do ANYTHING cool, so wrecking Nappa was fine, but you're ignoring the absolute terrifying nature of Nappa before he showed up. We saw EVERYONE get absolutely DEMOLISHED by him. He was a THREAT. He created TENSION. As did Vegeta when he turned Great Ape and DAMN NEAR beat THREE of our guys at once.

Same goes for the other arcs. The fact that there are moments of Cell getting rekt doesn't change the fact that overall, he was still consistently a threat that required massive amounts of training, and in the end he was only beat because of a freakish little boy that pulled a new form out of his ass. I am not saying that you need the heroes to be CONSTANT underdogs 100% of the time. Obviously you have to have that cathartic moment of them getting some shine. But OVERALL, the general sense, I feel, should be one of an overwhelming challenge that requires digging deep.

And the REASON that the most famous moments are them "dominating" is because of the cathartic nature of watching heroes best someone they previously struggled with. Don't you see that? It's not inherently meaningful or memorable to watch Gohan beat the fuck out of Cell on its own, it's only so awesome BECAUSE of what Cell had previously done. The STRUGGLE beforehand is what MAKES the final push for victory exciting. There's nothing inherently fun for most people simply watching Goku or whoever beat up some random thug with no presence. That would be boring as hell.
I just told you an underdog is a predicted loser who comes out on top and guess what, if Goku wasn't involved that never happened. They just lost. You are looking at everyone and calling them underdogs but no, they just sucked and the villains were too stupid and didn't kill them before Goku got there. People root for the underdog because they will find a way to win but look in dragon ball that is only Goku or his son.




And second? This is definition of Broly and as I said before, he is the most popular movie villain. He literally did not struggle for any of his power and just kicked ass and like I said for a lot of people he is the stereotype of what dragon ball is even those who love him. Explain how that character is about the struggle you claim dragon ball is about and i will concede.
Because he's a villain. I don't really know why you keep bringing up Broly. You're actually proving my point. People want to see an OP villain wreck the heroes. They don't apply to the same rules that I'm talking about. It's the HERO's journey not the villains journey. A VILLAIN that is dominant is what I'm arguing that I want, and that's why's he's popular. Because he's intimidating and a threat that creates tension...exactly what I've been arguing for. But THEN, the payoff is watching the UNDERDOGS, in that specific case, overcome the adversity of said OP villain.

And that goes right into my second point. I'm talking about underdogs in specific moments. Maybe I'm using the wrong word, but what I mean is heroes that are up against a threat that dwarfs their power in most circumstances, where they must endure grueling training, teamwork, power ups, etc. just to be able to stand toe to toe with them. Goku was only able to beat Nappa because his time training with a GOD, and even then he STILL got demolished by Vegeta. He had to pull every trick in the book just to be able to wittle him down with the Spirit Bomb, KKx4 Kamehameha, and even then they only won because they got lucky with Gohan falling on Vegeta as a Great Ape. Again, I look at them as the underdogs that survived overwhelming odds to narrowly come out on top. I'm not saying every single fight has to be this life or death teeth grinding miracle. But the general vibe should be one of hardship.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:24 pm

So now vegeta has power far above ssb kaioken ×20 goku, and he is making a suppressed jiren put in a lot of effort. Where the heck does that place him in power? Thas a huge boost. Its probably going to be a rage boost tho, as the previews first 5 seconds show jiren swatting him aside without effort of looking.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by IndieBooToo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:59 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:So now vegeta has power far above ssb kaioken ×20 goku, and he is making a suppressed jiren put in a lot of effort. Where the heck does that place him in power? Thas a huge boost. Its probably going to be a rage boost tho, as the previews first 5 seconds show jiren swatting him aside without effort of looking.
I wish Vegeta fanboys would stop being delusional and jumping to conclusions but that's too much to ask for apparently....m

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Supersaiyanbulla » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:04 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:So now vegeta has power far above ssb kaioken ×20 goku, and he is making a suppressed jiren put in a lot of effort. Where the heck does that place him in power? Thas a huge boost. Its probably going to be a rage boost tho, as the previews first 5 seconds show jiren swatting him aside without effort of looking.
I'm pretty sure that's the beginning of the episode and I don't think it's a rage boost he didn't look mad or anything and besides it was said that draw fourth power beyond your limit so this might implied that he's going to break his limit.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:16 pm

I can almost guarantee Vegeta will not be receiving even a glimmer of ultra instinct. He will just get really mad, and skip levels again. You know, like Gohan used to. And just like Gohan, he will wear down, Jiren will deliver a snarky one-liner, and then Vegeta will be wasted.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:52 pm

IndieBooToo wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:So now vegeta has power far above ssb kaioken ×20 goku, and he is making a suppressed jiren put in a lot of effort. Where the heck does that place him in power? Thas a huge boost. Its probably going to be a rage boost tho, as the previews first 5 seconds show jiren swatting him aside without effort of looking.
I wish Vegeta fanboys would stop being delusional and jumping to conclusions but that's too much to ask for apparently....m
I'm not a vegeta fanboy, and I'm not delusional. I know this is gonna play out like ragegeta vs beerus. Vegeta gets a couple of hits, surprises jiren, final attack, smoke clears, jiren is fine. But what I'm saying is that everytime vegeta gets a rage boost against a G.o.D being (beerus, jiren), he seems to get this ENOURMOUS amount of power that makes him dozens of timea stronger than he should be.

Again, Jiren is not going to go anywhere near full power against vegeta, as jiren is superior to a god of destruction, but the toei staff does not know how to make a power up more believable.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Lapislettuce » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:02 pm

Final 3 ?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:33 pm

Lapislettuce wrote:Final 3 ?
Image
Image
Is there something wrong with the images? I cant see them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Lapislettuce » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:40 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Lapislettuce wrote:Final 3 ?
Image
Image
Is there something wrong with the images? I cant see them.
What about now ?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:42 pm

On the subject of the controversy surrounding Vegeta being able to supposedly give Jiren a decent fight, does anyone else feel like they really blew their load with Aniraza? Aniraza was shown to be such a massive threat that all of Universe 7 had to team up in order to take him down, including Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyan Blues, and Golden Freeza. Compared to that, how exactly is Jiren supposed to maintain his status as the ultimate opponent in the Tournament of Power if Vegeta alone is able to give him a moderately difficult time?

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