I made it pretty clear that I hadn't watched Fist of the North Star, and that my perception could be totally wrong. And I guess it was. The only familiarity I have with Fist of the North Star is those "you're already dead memes". Other than that, no real clue about the actual quality of the content. Like I said, I guess I was wrong and I now know it. I was just always under the impression that it was a nostalgia kids thing because I have never heard an adult talk about it in any other context except how cool it was as a kid.HeroR wrote:There is a lot of anime, manga, comics, ect that centers around overpowered protagonists like One Punch Man, most Superman comics, Rurouni Kenshin. There is even a troper called Showy Invincible Hero.Artorias wrote:
I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.
But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.
And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?
Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.
Dragon Ball has had protagonists be overpowered compare to the threat. The first story arc of Dragon Ball has Goku be stronger than everyone outside of the Ox King. Goku wiped the Red Ribbon Army with only Blue and Tao giving him any real challenge and then after Goku trained with Korin he stomped everyone. Grandpa Gohan only did anything by grabbing Goku's tail. Goku vs. Tien was far more one-sided in the manga with Goku having the advantage for most of the fight. It wasn't until 'Z' that the protagonists were the 'underdogs' and even then, the protagonists overwhelmed 19 and 20 and then Cell at several points. Buu Saga started with the protagonists being overpowered until Buu came.
Also, 'Fists of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult', huh? Where in the world did hear that? Have you watched Fist of the North Star? That is the show where people's heads explode and people wondered how it was rated for kids. Comparing it to Yugioh of all things, and I like Yugioh, is the strangest thing I have read in awhile. Also, Fists of the North Star's writing is far more mature than Dragon Ball even without the violence.
And my point still stands that I think modern Dragon Ball at this point needs to have tension and a major obstacle to overcome to remain interesting. I don't see how it could last otherwise.
They were absolutely framed as underdogs in Z. Think about the intimidating nature of Vegeta, how it took THREE people in a desperate bloody struggle just to push him back, and he was STILL alive after it all. Think about the OP nature of Freeza until Goku got Super Saiyan. Think about Cell and Buu with their neverending transformations that allowed them to stomp anyone that dared think they could surpass them. Until the end, every arc of DBZ was the villain dominating and putting the heroes up against the wall. And every one of them except for Freeza were BARELY defeated at the last second with the heroes pulling out every last once of power in a desperate life or death struggle.Totamo wrote:Thats what shonen was before dragon ball. An unstoppable badass plowing through enemies like because it was fun to fantasize about.Artorias wrote:I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.Totamo wrote:That is extremely incorrect. Fist of the North star's protagonist beat the shit out of everyone he came across. He was insanely OP, yet his story is one of the most beloved shonen ever made as with violence jack. OP protagonists are nothing new and there are people out there who like them as they are a power fantasy which dragon ball is to a lot pf people.
Tension, stakes or drama isn't needed to make a good story, they are plenty out there that don't. All story needs to be good is cohesive and entertaining , anything else is extra. IMO, this arc has only been one of those and not all the time.
But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.
And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?
Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.
And what are you talking about? Goku rarely struggled against anyone in the First arc or second except Roshi. In fact, every tournament arc Goku basically destroys everybody except maybe 2 people. Even in z they were never framed as underdogs. Gohan was considered to be a warrior with mass potential. The saiyans are literally called natural born fighters. Underdogs does not mean weaker than the bad guy, it means a predicted loser that comes out on top in the end. That only happened to Goku and Gohan. The humans and namekians were both slaughtered and never came out on top.
Fist of the north star is only called that by and look down upon in the west but you know what, so is Dragon Ball Z and One Piece. They all have what you call tension and drama but they are still called kid shows. Hell, Broly is everything people stereotype Dragon ball z to be and he is the definition of a power fantasy which is the main reason why people love him and hate him so much
My point is, You can make an overpowered protagonist and still tell a good story. One punch man is literally that and even though its a parody, its fights are held higher the shows with actually tension.
I don't get that vibe at all in this tournament, or most of Super for that matter. I see a bunch of fodder jokes that serve as a vessel to deliver fan service where the writers can be all "look how COOL they are guys, isn't this COOL?" Yes, it's cool, but at the cost of the tension. It's not fun to just watch the protagonist dominate with the exception of a few franchises, which are exceptions for a reason. The writers crafted those stories specifically with the intention of having an OP hero. That's the entire POINT of the show, and the drama comes more from the people around the hero, rather than the hero's struggle itself. But Dragon Ball isn't built like that right now. It NEEDS a foe or foes to push the heroes to their limits to remain interesting, like most shows.