"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:40 pm

Kinokima wrote:Why would Vegeta forgot about his family because he thinks of Cabba too? Forming new relationships is something positive. And Cabba and Vegeta was built up in previous episodes. I mean this is the series that had Kuririn fall in love with 18 after she kissed him once. But Vegeta caring about Cabba a Saiyajin kid who sees him as a mentor is too much for some people? Yeah it was definitely fast development but it’s par for the course with DB. It’s not like the relationship wasn’t built up at all.

No one else is barely thinking of their family either. But only Vegeta gets ragged on for this. I know there was that nice scene between Kuririn and 18 but that’s because they are both here together.


And another important thing is Vegeta’s wish is centered around Cabba. He has to actually win to obtain the Super Dragon Balls & wish Cabba and Co back. He doesn’t have to be the one to win to save his Universe. Acting like Vegeta doesn’t care about his family because he also cares about Cabba is missing the point. And quite frankly if U7 loses it’s not just his family that will be erased but Vegeta too. But I guess Vegeta doesn’t care about getting erased either by this logic.


Forming a new relationship with Cabba in addition to the relationship he already has with his family is not anywhere close to character regression. And yeah sure I wouldn’t complain if we got a sappy moment of Vegeta thinking of his family because I live for those moments. But I also know Vegeta loves his family without that and it’s nice that he found someone else to care about in addition to his family.


As for Vegeta suddenly being too strong for some people. He trained with Whis and Beerus just like Goku throughout the series. As for preparations before the TOP it all happened in less than 2 days from what I can recall so Vegeta going into the ROSAT is more than most people did. I am fairly certain Vegeta won’t beat Jiren the main antagonist so you can all rest easy. But Vegeta having a chance against Toppo the second main antagonist when he has been the deuteragonist throughout Super is too much for some people?
It's the implication that "I have to keep my promise to that kid! I will win for my student I don't even particularly like!!" is more important to Vegeta than "If I lose, then my newborn daughter will cease to exist! Like hell I'll let that happen!!" that bothers me so much. There was no mention of his family in the Tournament of Power, so the implication is that they're lower down on his priority list than Cabba; it completely undoes the character development he went through during the Zero Mortals Plan, in which he consented to merge with his rival Kakarotto only because Future Trunks told him of how Future Bulma wanted to see him even more than she wanted to escape Black and that, had she lived, she would have come with Trunks just so she could see Vegeta again. In addition to that, he declared in both the manga and the anime that he wasn't just fighting to defeat Black after a humiliating loss but to save his son's future; he was finally fighting for more than just himself again (like when he sacrificed himself against Boo and when he went ballistic on Beerus) and his family had become more important to him than ever before, with saving his son's future, learning of his future wife's desire to see him, and then the birth of his daughter.

The Tournament of Power thus far has thrown that development out the window and disregarded it. Considering there is only a handful of episodes remaining, that, unfortunately, probably won't change. I like Vegeta's mentor and student relationship with Cabba; it's the fact that it's portrayed as more important to him than his family all of a sudden that seems like terrible writing to me, given what was written up to that point.

With regard to Vegeta suddenly being so powerful and durable, what bothers me is that there was zero build-up to it. He was handed a new form for seemingly no other reason than "Vegeta really, really wants Cabba back, despite not really even liking him, because he's a Saiyajin." (Vegeta's never cared about other Saiyajin before; he thought of Raditz as dirt and even killed Nappa. He has pride in his heritage, but the actual people don't matter to him. He's developed so much since then and it's not infeasible for him to care about another member of his race now, but for that to take precedence over his family right after they were established to be his new motivation just doesn't sit right with me.) Other than vowing to keep his promise to Cabba, Vegeta didn't really have a story arc or any character development to speak of. The amazing stuff that's happening to Vegeta, for that reason, just...doesn't feel deserved to me at all; it feels like he's getting it because he's Vegeta, so sit down, everyone else; this isn't your show. Know what I mean?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:06 pm

TheOtherDude wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:I have no problem with vegeta reaching G.O.D level at all, in fact, with the series ending, vegeta should be able to give any god of destruction a good fight, with goku being the one to surpass G.o.D tier as the main character. But I swear to zeno, that if toppo goes down with 0 eliminations, I’m gonna k-...
You’ve been talking down about Vegeta this ENTIRE TIME but now you want to talk about him in a good light? So silly. If there has ever been a Vegeta hater that pops up on this board too frequently, it’s you.
I have never talked down about vegeta. Stop putting words in my mouth. I have always doubt toei giving vegeta a spot light, that is all. And stop calling anyone who doesn’t feel the same way about vegeta as you a hater, or it’s gonna make you sound stupid.

If you are going to reply, make it about the comment itself, and if it’s about the person making the comment, make sure you get your info straight.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:07 pm

Black Hawk wrote:
Kinokima wrote:Why would Vegeta forgot about his family because he thinks of Cabba too? Forming new relationships is something positive. And Cabba and Vegeta was built up in previous episodes. I mean this is the series that had Kuririn fall in love with 18 after she kissed him once. But Vegeta caring about Cabba a Saiyajin kid who sees him as a mentor is too much for some people? Yeah it was definitely fast development but it’s par for the course with DB. It’s not like the relationship wasn’t built up at all.

No one else is barely thinking of their family either. But only Vegeta gets ragged on for this. I know there was that nice scene between Kuririn and 18 but that’s because they are both here together.


And another important thing is Vegeta’s wish is centered around Cabba. He has to actually win to obtain the Super Dragon Balls & wish Cabba and Co back. He doesn’t have to be the one to win to save his Universe. Acting like Vegeta doesn’t care about his family because he also cares about Cabba is missing the point. And quite frankly if U7 loses it’s not just his family that will be erased but Vegeta too. But I guess Vegeta doesn’t care about getting erased either by this logic.


Forming a new relationship with Cabba in addition to the relationship he already has with his family is not anywhere close to character regression. And yeah sure I wouldn’t complain if we got a sappy moment of Vegeta thinking of his family because I live for those moments. But I also know Vegeta loves his family without that and it’s nice that he found someone else to care about in addition to his family.


As for Vegeta suddenly being too strong for some people. He trained with Whis and Beerus just like Goku throughout the series. As for preparations before the TOP it all happened in less than 2 days from what I can recall so Vegeta going into the ROSAT is more than most people did. I am fairly certain Vegeta won’t beat Jiren the main antagonist so you can all rest easy. But Vegeta having a chance against Toppo the second main antagonist when he has been the deuteragonist throughout Super is too much for some people?
It's the implication that "I have to keep my promise to that kid! I will win for my student I don't even particularly like!!" is more important to Vegeta than "If I lose, then my newborn daughter will cease to exist! Like hell I'll let that happen!!" that bothers me so much. There was no mention of his family in the Tournament of Power, so the implication is that they're lower down on his priority list than Cabba; it completely undoes the character development he went through during the Zero Mortals Plan, in which he consented to merge with his rival Kakarotto only because Future Trunks told him of how Future Bulma wanted to see him even more than she wanted to escape Black and that, had she lived, she would have come with Trunks just so she could see Vegeta again. In addition to that, he declared in both the manga and the anime that he wasn't just fighting to defeat Black after a humiliating loss but to save his son's future; he was finally fighting for more than just himself again (like when he sacrificed himself against Boo and when he went ballistic on Beerus) and his family had become more important to him than ever before, with saving his son's future, learning of his future wife's desire to see him, and then the birth of his daughter.

The Tournament of Power thus far has thrown that development out the window and disregarded it. Considering there is only a handful of episodes remaining, that, unfortunately, probably won't change. I like Vegeta's mentor and student relationship with Cabba; it's the fact that it's portrayed as more important to him than his family all of a sudden that seems like terrible writing to me, given what was written up to that point.

With regard to Vegeta suddenly being so powerful and durable, what bothers me is that there was zero build-up to it. He was handed a new form for seemingly no other reason than "Vegeta really, really wants Cabba back, despite not really even liking him, because he's a Saiyajin." (Vegeta's never cared about other Saiyajin before; he thought of Raditz as dirt and even killed Nappa. He has pride in his heritage, but the actual people don't matter to him. He's developed so much since then and it's not infeasible for him to care about another member of his race now, but for that to take precedence over his family right after they were established to be his new motivation just doesn't sit right with me.) Other than vowing to keep his promise to Cabba, Vegeta didn't really have a story arc or any character development to speak of. The amazing stuff that's happening to Vegeta, for that reason, just...doesn't feel deserved to me at all; it feels like he's getting it because he's Vegeta, so sit down, everyone else; this isn't your show. Know what I mean?
Of course Vegeta really likes Cabba. There is no he doesn’t really like him about it.

He stopped in the middle of the fight to train him how to become SSJ. He saved him from getting eliminated. He talks to him about Saiyajin Pride. He made a promise to wish him back.

Vegeta really likes Cabba it’s just Vegeta so it’s how he shows it. He’s a Tsundere and is written like that, pretending he doesn’t care when he really does. And Cabba also represents losing the Saiyajins once again. Back in the Namek Saga Vegeta said he didn’t care but this is a different Vegeta. Comparing who Vegeta was when he was a villain to the Vegeta now doesn’t make sense.


And never once did I think Vegeta cares more about Cabba or the Saiyajins over his own family. It doesn’t have to be about caring about one more than the other. Vegeta’s heart has grown bigger that he has grown to care about more people. Yeah I understand you would have liked a moment where Vegeta thought about losing his family but that doesn’t mean Vegeta doesn’t care about them or he forgot about his family because that’s not in there. It should go without saying that Vegeta loves his family at this point.

Again I am trying to point out that Vegeta wants to win for a specific purpose. If Goku won his family would still be safe. The whole point of that scene is Vegeta can’t give up because winning goes beyond just saving his Universe. And yeah I am not saying there was tons of build up for the power up. But it’s not like he doesn’t train like a mad man. More importantly he got the power up because of thinking selflessly. It wasn’t about wanting to be the strongest but about keeping a promise to someone else. It might not be the character moment you were looking for but it is absolutely character development.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:23 pm

Speaking of Vegeta and Cabba

Image

I'm happy that they got a Cover instead of Goku and the Saiyan Girls.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:14 pm

Kinokima wrote:Of course Vegeta really likes Cabba. There is no he doesn’t really like him about it.

He stopped in the middle of the fight to train him how to become SSJ. He saved him from getting eliminated. He talks to him about Saiyajin Pride. He made a promise to wish him back.

Vegeta really likes Cabba it’s just Vegeta so it’s how he shows it. He’s a Tsundere and is written like that, pretending he doesn’t care when he really does. And Cabba also represents losing the Saiyajins once again. Back in the Namek Saga Vegeta said he didn’t care but this is a different Vegeta. Comparing who Vegeta was when he was a villain to the Vegeta now doesn’t make sense.


And never once did I think Vegeta cares more about Cabba or the Saiyajins over his own family. It doesn’t have to be about caring about one more than the other. Vegeta’s heart has grown bigger that he has grown to care about more people. Yeah I understand you would have liked a moment where Vegeta thought about losing his family but that doesn’t mean Vegeta doesn’t care about them or he forgot about his family because that’s not in there. It should go without saying that Vegeta loves his family at this point.

Again I am trying to point out that Vegeta wants to win for a specific purpose. If Goku won his family would still be safe. The whole point of that scene is Vegeta can’t give up because winning goes beyond just saving his Universe. And yeah I am not saying there was tons of build up for the power up. But it’s not like he doesn’t train like a mad man. More importantly he got the power up because of thinking selflessly. It wasn’t about wanting to be the strongest but about keeping a promise to someone else. It might not be the character moment you were looking for but it is absolutely character development.
I guess part of it is that I primarily form my view of Super based on the manga adaptation; quite a bit of the developments between Vegeta and Cabba are exclusive to the anime, if I remember correctly, so I end up overlooking them. That's my bad. It isn't particularly fair for me to judge their relationship based 75% on the manga, in which their only interactions thus far are Vegeta asking to visit Planet Sadla and Vegeta provoking Cabba into becoming a Super Saiyajin.

I do like that Vegeta has a reason for wanting to use the Super Dragon Balls because of Cabba; thus far, we've barely been given any information on what anyone in the tournament would actually wish for. Other than No. 17's boat and Jiren's...whatever his wish is, if I remember correctly, Vegeta's motivation is the only one that's been given at all thus far. While I don't think his motivation is the best, I do like that he at least has one. For as big a goal as the Super Dragon Balls seems to be, what they'd be used for, Vegeta and 17 aside, certainly hasn't been much of an in-universe topic so far...

I really like your perspective on Vegeta's motivations; I hadn't thought about it beyond the scope of his own universe until now. Also, this statement isn't made in sarcasm: I genuinely appreciate how civil you are in this discussion; that's something all of us on Kanzenshuu should strive to do.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:34 pm

Black Hawk wrote: I really like your perspective on Vegeta's motivations; I hadn't thought about it beyond the scope of his own universe until now. Also, this statement isn't made in sarcasm: I genuinely appreciate how civil you are in this discussion; that's something all of us on Kanzenshuu should strive to do.
Thanks I really appreciate you saying that and listening to my perspective. :)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:03 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Black Hawk wrote: I really like your perspective on Vegeta's motivations; I hadn't thought about it beyond the scope of his own universe until now. Also, this statement isn't made in sarcasm: I genuinely appreciate how civil you are in this discussion; that's something all of us on Kanzenshuu should strive to do.
Thanks I really appreciate you saying that and listening to my perspective. :)
Yeap kinokima , your previous posts also opened my mind , I was feeling kinda upset with the way they put cabba as the trigger to vegeta s power up , like out of context .
Also the way cabba respect vegeta without fear it’s something that I don’t remember to happen before coming from a rival, and adding to that the fact that cabba is a Saiyan from a planet in another universe that equals that one that you lost ... implyies that strong intimate feeling of protection.
So , thank you
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Pannaliciour » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:49 pm

Black Hawk wrote:
Xeogran wrote:Frankly speaking, I'm now tired of the ToP writers wanking Vegeta to death.

He fought Jiren, was the first one to get him down, then Jiren destroyed him but let him stay on the arena for.. reasons. A few seconds later Vegeta magically stood up and got a new form, is fighting Jiren, will fight GoD Toppo and win, then come back to fighting Jiren again.

It's too much. When he fought in Z, he never got that much screentime.

Worst thing is, there was barely any buildup to Vegeta being such a strong presence before it began.
I agree with every bit of this, especially the highlighted portion. After he was so amazingly-written during the Zero Mortals Plan, his writing fell so flat for the Tournament of Power and now all of a sudden he's the man of the hour because...well, because Vegeta, and for no other reason seemingly. I liked how he performed at first, but his motivation for transforming and for winning being some erased kid he barely knows from another universe instead of his family (including a daughter who was literally just born) killed off what little hype I felt for him in the tournament. I feel like, after writing my favorite Vegeta development ever during the Zero Mortals Plan, the writers dropped the Vegeta ball so hard it fell through the center of Earth.

I love Vegeta; he's my third favorite character in the entire franchise, but I just can't stand the way he's been written in this arc. I can't even bring myself to feel the hype or even root for him.
That still can happen!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:36 pm

Vegeta's gonna get caught in hakai energy and then he's gonna see a flashback of his family, a huge beam of blue light will appear and he will break out of hakai and proceed to end Toppo . :D

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:53 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:Vegeta's gonna get caught in hakai energy and then he's gonna see a flashback of his family, a huge beam of blue light will appear and he will break out of hakai and proceed to end Toppo . :D
And then he will end Jiren by going Ultra Mega Super Saiyan Rainbow, win the tournament, beat Freeza, make Goku jealous, and wish all the saiyans back among his own brethren. Then he will go Mega Ultra Monkey Super God Saiyan Instinct 3 and kill Zeno so he can say he is the King of the Multi-verse. Goku cries in shame and Vegeta stands above him as Goku is the foot stool. Toriyama is a genius and there's no way it could go any other way but this.

So who got flashbacks to the time of the ROF rumours eh
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:40 pm

Coming back hours later I don't feel as salty now when I first read up on the spoiler. I guess I am glad that Vegeta and Toppo's fight is concluding after having started way back when. Hopefully the two have a great fight and Toppo doesn't go out like a chump. Also doubt Freeza is out I'm guessing he probably is still knocked out because I don't see any reason why they wouldn't knock him out in 125 to just then knock him out in 126. The only thing that I think would really sour my view of the episode is if Vegeta comes out of the Toppo fight without any damage.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:47 pm

CriticalThinker wrote:Coming back hours later I don't feel as salty now when I first read up on the spoiler. I guess I am glad that Vegeta and Toppo's fight is concluding after having started way back when. Hopefully the two have a great fight and Toppo doesn't go out like a chump. Also doubt Freeza is out I'm guessing he probably is still knocked out because I don't see any reason why they wouldn't knock him out in 125 to just then knock him out in 126. The only thing that I think would really sour my view of the episode is if Vegeta comes out of the Toppo fight without any damage.
The NEP and WSJ for 126 both mention that Frieza is fighting though

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:00 pm

I guess it's possible all four of U7's remaining team members are in it till the end.

Maybe ring outs are done?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by kinisking » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:07 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Gotta give credit to where it's due, #17 lasting this long and contributing as much as he has is nothing short of amazing. He's truly been the MVP for the entire tournament.
Not at all. Just because he contributed more than expected doesn't make him mvp at all. Goku and Vegeta have more eliminations, and Goku especially has fought some top tier opponents. I think I'd place him 3rd most valuable .
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:08 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
CriticalThinker wrote:Coming back hours later I don't feel as salty now when I first read up on the spoiler. I guess I am glad that Vegeta and Toppo's fight is concluding after having started way back when. Hopefully the two have a great fight and Toppo doesn't go out like a chump. Also doubt Freeza is out I'm guessing he probably is still knocked out because I don't see any reason why they wouldn't knock him out in 125 to just then knock him out in 126. The only thing that I think would really sour my view of the episode is if Vegeta comes out of the Toppo fight without any damage.
The NEP and WSJ for 126 both mention that Frieza is fighting though
Oh I guess I missed that, surprised Freeza wants to have a round two with Toppo. Guess this could mean Freeza might get knocked out but I'm not to sure.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:22 pm

kinisking wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Gotta give credit to where it's due, #17 lasting this long and contributing as much as he has is nothing short of amazing. He's truly been the MVP for the entire tournament.
Not at all. Just because he contributed more than expected doesn't make him mvp at all. Goku and Vegeta have more eliminations, and Goku especially has fought some top tier opponents. I think I'd place him 3rd most valuable .
Have to agree here. I can see why people are impressed with his stellar performance and doing better than some might have expected but he factually isn't the MVP

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiosama » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:40 pm

Totamo wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:The way this is going 17 might as well end Jiren without showing any emotion, will find a weakness for something while running around..
He is already lasting longer than golden Freeza did against Toppo, vegeta is getting his ass beat after a powerup and 17 is running around places he shouldn't even be 10 feet near..
I don't particularly care for 17 but this is just silly..
Want manga version asap, need to know what was actually planned for 17..
He is way weaker in the manga, but then again so is everyone including the main characters.


I'm not sure people will be happy with the manga because it will operate on more logic and logically speaking, the human characters nor Piccolo nor 18 will perform all that well.
I disagree with the assumption that the main characters are way weaker in the Manga. Completed Super Saiyan Blue is basically SSBKK. Goku was even able to use a Hakaishin technique at full power and Vegeta has a more powerful attack in the Gamma Burst Flash.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiosama » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:13 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:I have no problem with vegeta reaching G.O.D level at all, in fact, with the series ending, vegeta should be able to give any god of destruction a good fight, with goku being the one to surpass G.o.D tier as the main character. But I swear to zeno, that if toppo goes down with 0 eliminations, I’m gonna k-...
Agreed. This story works much better with the main character being the strongest instead of being equal to Vegeta. Anything else would be horrendously bad writing. Vegeta beating Toppo is problematic. He shouldn't be that strong. Honestly in my opinion Toppo should have elminated Vegeta and the others and should beaten Goku into submission until he awakens UI for the final time at full power. Then he could finally have the main event fight we've all been waiting this whole arc after eliminating Toppo to prove he is a threat to Jiren. Mastered UI Goku vs FP Jiren. A fight beyond the Gods. Everyone else needs to be eliminated now because I don't want Goku vs Jiren to only last one episode, nor do I want Vegeta sticking around where he doesn't belong with lame asspull power-ups.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Raphael_Z » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:54 am

Maybe they can lampshade Toppo's unavoidable defeat by saying that he still is inexperienced with his new GoD power. Definitely weird that U11's second most important fighter will go home with 0 eliminations. At least Jiren took out Hit.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:27 am

Pannaliciour wrote:That still can happen!
With the last handful of episodes remaining, I'm holding out hope until the end! Vegeta's betrayed my expectations in good ways more than once before, after all. :thumbup:
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