"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:49 am

darzap wrote:The way DB is written makes the creator easier to replace than other types of creators with other types works.
This is true to a degree but based on previous failed attempts to move away from him, I think he still needs to be involved as a co-writer to keep things in the right direction.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:28 am

darzap wrote: I don't assume that somebody will, I'm just assuming that there are people who could (because there certainly are) and I hope Toei finds them if they want to continue DB after Toriyama (I hope they do).
So? Just because you can named and point to 'inconsistencies' doesn't mean you can write story. And even then, Super had information that most hardcore fans didn't realized right away like the two robbers from the Saiyanman episode being from the manga of Dragon Ball, but they never showed up in the anime. Also, Toyo who is supposed to be a super fan made an error in the Resurrection 'F' manga that many other supposedly hardcore fans never picked up on. Namely, he had Krillin acknowledged Pilaf and wonder if he was misusing the Dragon Balls again. Thing is, Krillin never met Pilaf, never even once. The cast didn't even know he was involved with King Piccolo, so why would Krillin think of Pilaf?
This is not meant to say that anybody who can point out plot holes could be a potential writer, but this is to say that a replacement of Toriyama is more conceivable than say, replacing
- J.R.R. Tolkien (RIP), who not only wrote the LotR-books but the complete mythology, created more than two languages and sat on mountains of notes regarding the ancestry and backstories of characters, places, plant names consistent with elvish linguistics, etc. and wrote thousands of pages with callbacks and foreshadowing across books that were released decades apart, or replacing
- J.K. Rowling, who is known to have planned out a part of the grand scheme of things early enough to set up things that happened in Book 7 ten years in advance and is also known to have elaborate notes of backstories and details that were not included but that she was able to provide on request by fans or the film crew.

LotR and HP have some inconsistencies as well but they are far fewer compared to the massive amounts of plot and details that are included in those books and the interconnectedness and complexity of events. Toriyama does not seem to have this kind of encyclopedic knowledge that would make him hard to replace and by all means, I'm not saying he should be this kind of nerd to write better stories or that I want DB to become more like HP or LotR, I'm just saying that the way DB is written, makes the creator easier to replace than other types of creators with other types works.
I think a lot of the writing problems with Super in particular, can be very easily explained away due to the mess of the production of the show being very limiting, as well as Super lacking some essential components.

I think a lot of the lack of consistency in Super can be pinned down upon the lack of a real credited series composer, whose main job, along with the series director, is to oversee and divide up scripts. Another thing could be the extremely strained production of the show, as well as poor creative decisions regarding the length of the series. For example, I think how they decided to handle this tournament, namely as bunch of episodic individual fights, was the wrong way to handle it.

I will also say though, that Super certainly isn't lacking in high profile script writers. The person whose often referred to as the unofficial series composer of Super, has dozens upon dozens of series composition roles to his name. Hell, we even have a script writer from Neon Genesis Evangelion working on Super. So, I don't think Super is exactly lacking in writers with impressive credits or experience in the industry.

I do think the lack of an official series composer, the stressed production, as well as some bad creative decisions, are all reasons why Supers narrative sometimes feel a little in cohesive and disjointed. Hopefully, if there is a next series, all these problems can be sorted out with proper planning and scheduling.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by darzap » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:28 am

HeroR wrote:Yes. Video games main goal should be game play over story. Even then, Xenoverse was hailed as having an original story that wasn't just Raditz to Buu, yet it was still Raditz to Buu with some Battle of Gods. It just had it with a twist. Even FigtherZ recycles the androids idea. There really isn't anything original about it outside of how some things are put together.
Videos games also have tendencies to play things safe, featuring a ton of well-known characters and locations might appeal to a lot of fans of the series. Requiring less original artwork might reduce the cost of production, using established ideas can reduce the risk of rejection by fan. I question the whole notion of judging a companies ability to produce original ideas for a series of the plots we see in video games.
But my point remains. Dragon Ball has many writers over it long years, yet none of them did anything really original with the story of Dragon Ball. Online was the closet thing to the point that Heroes and Xenoverse are still taking ideas from it, and Toriyama supposedly had a hand in it. So again, what history is there for me to grab that makes me believed that someone being handed Dragon Ball would do something 'creative'? And 'I hope Toei finds these people' isn't really saying much since Toei doesn't even hired everyone. Stuff that Toei has nothing to with isn't exactly creative in the Dragon Ball department.
I don't see how that leads to "a new Dragon Ball series won't be original without Toriyama". All it takes is somebody with original ideas (Toriyama is not the only person with that property), who is able to write for Dragon Ball (which is not super-hard because Dragon Ball is not a very complex series).
The different here is that we're talking about a Japanese cartoon that doesn't have the same writing standards as western novels. A better example would be One Piece, and even that is an exception to most anime. Dragon Ball was never meant to be like LOTR or Harry Potter. As Toriyama would say, he's a gag artist who just wants to write fart jokes.
No point of contention here, I would repeat myself if I said that I do not want DB to become like HP or LotR. This is not the point and I'm not comparing those things to judge DB but to argue that it is easier for a creative person to take the role of Toriyama because it is not too hard to become sufficiently knowledgeable about DB and understand it's characters to write consistently for it (assuming you have the general qualities of a good writer, such as creativity and innovativeness already), than it would be for a good writer, to start continue HP or LotR, because he'd have to acquire massive amounts of knowledge for that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:33 am

Torturephile wrote:
Liquir wrote:DBS 129 Promo - Extended - Extra Scenes
https://twitter.com/DB__ZGTKAISUPER/sta ... 6205255680
That alone looks better than the last few episodes we've had.
I'm the only who finds kinda dull that Goku compares Jiren to Z villains? Come on, he could compare him with Beerus, Freeza and/or Zamasu.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:38 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:https://t.co/ICxqr67aTI

The new Super dragon ball heroes saga featuring jiren Vs MUI goku
We reached the point where Heroes' storylines seem more interesting to follow than Super's. Depressing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:46 am

jeffbr92 wrote:
Torturephile wrote:
Liquir wrote:DBS 129 Promo - Extended - Extra Scenes
https://twitter.com/DB__ZGTKAISUPER/sta ... 6205255680
That alone looks better than the last few episodes we've had.
I'm the only who finds kinda dull that Goku compares Jiren to Z villains? Come on, he could compare him with Beerus, Freeza and/or Zamasu.
Indeed, it doesn't make sense, especially because Zamasu was much more powrful than Cell and Buu. Zamasu was the pinnacle of power, he was the deadliest and strongest opponent that Goku has ever faced prior to Jiren, and he didn't even mention him. And it's funny, because Goku notes that Jiren displays unlimited power, even though Zamasu also had unlimited power and endless potential.
"And now we will cleanse the Earth. Your filthy kind is worst of all. How many times have your conflicts nearly destroyed this planet and threatened to spread across this universe? And since you've learned to defy time you can spread your violence even farther."

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:22 am

jeffbr92 wrote:
Torturephile wrote:
Liquir wrote:DBS 129 Promo - Extended - Extra Scenes
https://twitter.com/DB__ZGTKAISUPER/sta ... 6205255680
That alone looks better than the last few episodes we've had.
I'm the only who finds kinda dull that Goku compares Jiren to Z villains? Come on, he could compare him with Beerus, Freeza and/or Zamasu.
It seems that Toei did it on purpose to torture the fans. Who cares about Z villains :yawn: I'm sure that even in the episodes will not have any statement.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:29 am

HeroR wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:How can people say DBS fails when it more or less breaks the internet everyweek? Also interest in the series wouldn't be high if it "failed" or people didn't care for it. Let's stop this nonesense. It's a success in all departments, DBS Part 3 came out this week already sold really well. RS were temporary out of stock for a short while too. It was #1 seller on Amazon only just dropped to second.

Also RoS Goku Black is currently best seller on AmazonJP under animation goods, came out Thursday.
Because it’s Dragon Ball. No matter the quality people are going to tune in.
Except for GT which failed everywhere when Dragon Ball interest was at its highest here in the US.
GT “failed” in Japan because of Dragon Ball burnout. And in the West it did pretty well on nicktoons and toonami

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:44 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:How can people say DBS fails when it more or less breaks the internet everyweek? Also interest in the series wouldn't be high if it "failed" or people didn't care for it. Let's stop this nonesense. It's a success in all departments, DBS Part 3 came out this week already sold really well. RS were temporary out of stock for a short while too. It was #1 seller on Amazon only just dropped to second.

Also RoS Goku Black is currently best seller on AmazonJP under animation goods, came out Thursday.
Because it’s Dragon Ball. No matter the quality people are going to tune in.
Both the dub and sub have already been available months in advance of the BDs yet the BDs are still flying off the shelves.

If people didn't enjoy DBS then that wouldn't be happening. Hell even the retellings sold well despite the fact that both respective films were also available for the fraction of the price.

I seen folks say that "oh people just hate watch the show" but then you telling that people also "hate buy the show" too?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:01 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:How can people say DBS fails when it more or less breaks the internet everyweek? Also interest in the series wouldn't be high if it "failed" or people didn't care for it. Let's stop this nonesense. It's a success in all departments, DBS Part 3 came out this week already sold really well. RS were temporary out of stock for a short while too. It was #1 seller on Amazon only just dropped to second.

Also RoS Goku Black is currently best seller on AmazonJP under animation goods, came out Thursday.
Because it’s Dragon Ball. No matter the quality people are going to tune in.
Both the dub and sub have already been available months in advance of the BDs yet the BDs are still flying off the shelves.

If people didn't enjoy DBS then that wouldn't be happening. Hell even the retellings sold well despite the fact that both respective films were also available for the fraction of the price.

I seen folks say that "oh people just hate watch the show" but then you telling that people also "hate buy the show" too?
How is this still an argument? You'd expect that, in a world where 50 Shades of Grey sold over 150 million copies, people would have figured out by now that sales don't equal quality.

No, people don't hate buy the show. People who like the show buy the show. That doesn't mean the show is good. It's good for the people who buy the show, who just happen to be a lot because it's a pretty fuckin big franchise aimed mostly at young people.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:11 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Because it’s Dragon Ball. No matter the quality people are going to tune in.
Except for GT which failed everywhere when Dragon Ball interest was at its highest here in the US.
GT “failed” in Japan because of Dragon Ball burnout. And in the West it did pretty well on nicktoons and toonami
GT didn't do 'well' on Toonami and Nicktoons. It did okay, but nowhere near something build as the sequel of Dragon Ball Z. Nicktoons tried to pushed GT, but no one was really interested in it. Dragon Ball Kai, however, was extremely successful. Another example is the original Dragon Ball. It got a lot of pushed on Toonami, yet despite having Dragon Ball name in it and considered the best part of the story. it only did okay. In comparison, Super is actual comparable to Z in terms of sells.

Heck, Dragon Ball Evolution has Dragon Ball's name on it along with Toriyama's and it bombed.
Doctor. wrote: How is this still an argument? You'd expect that, in a world where 50 Shades of Grey sold over 150 million copies, people would have figured out by now that sales don't equal quality.

No, people don't hate buy the show. People who like the show buy the show. That doesn't mean the show is good. It's good for the people who buy the show, who just happen to be a lot because it's a pretty fuckin big franchise aimed mostly at young people.

The argument isn't about quality since quality is subjective. The point is that saying Super only sells because it has Dragon Ball's name on it downplays that GT in the west didn't do as well. Heck, the original Dragon Ball which is considered the best in the series only did decent at best here in the US despite the marketing pushed Funi and Toonami gave it.
Last edited by HeroR on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:11 am

Doctor. wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Because it’s Dragon Ball. No matter the quality people are going to tune in.
Both the dub and sub have already been available months in advance of the BDs yet the BDs are still flying off the shelves.

If people didn't enjoy DBS then that wouldn't be happening. Hell even the retellings sold well despite the fact that both respective films were also available for the fraction of the price.

I seen folks say that "oh people just hate watch the show" but then you telling that people also "hate buy the show" too?
How is this still an argument? You'd expect that, in a world where 50 Shades of Grey sold over 150 million copies, people would have figured out by now that sales don't equal quality.

No, people don't hate buy the show. People who like the show buy the show. That doesn't mean the show is good. It's good for the people who buy the show, who just happen to be a lot because it's a pretty fuckin big franchise aimed mostly at young people.

I seriously hate this argument. Yes quantity doesn’t = quality

But quality is subjective. Just because you dislike the show doesn’t mean it is bad show. It’s a strawman’s argument.

At least Baggie is using actual numbers to show that people enjoy the show. There are also tons of polls with large numbers of votes on Twitter that also show that people who dislike the show are definitely just a loud minority.

That doesn’t mean it’s a good show. Whether it’s a good or bad show is opinion. But everyone’s opinion is valid.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:17 am

Kinokima wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Both the dub and sub have already been available months in advance of the BDs yet the BDs are still flying off the shelves.

If people didn't enjoy DBS then that wouldn't be happening. Hell even the retellings sold well despite the fact that both respective films were also available for the fraction of the price.

I seen folks say that "oh people just hate watch the show" but then you telling that people also "hate buy the show" too?
How is this still an argument? You'd expect that, in a world where 50 Shades of Grey sold over 150 million copies, people would have figured out by now that sales don't equal quality.

No, people don't hate buy the show. People who like the show buy the show. That doesn't mean the show is good. It's good for the people who buy the show, who just happen to be a lot because it's a pretty fuckin big franchise aimed mostly at young people.

I seriously hate this argument. Yes quantity doesn’t = quality

But quality is subjective. Just because you dislike the show doesn’t mean it is bad show. It’s a strawman’s argument.

At least Baggie is using actual numbers to show that people enjoy the show. There are also tons of polls with large numbers of votes on Twitter that also show that people who dislike the show are definitely just a loud minority.

That doesn’t mean it’s a good show. Whether it’s a good or bad show is opinion. But everyone’s opinion is valid.
Quote me where I said the show is bad in that post.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:20 am

Doctor. wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
Doctor. wrote: How is this still an argument? You'd expect that, in a world where 50 Shades of Grey sold over 150 million copies, people would have figured out by now that sales don't equal quality.

No, people don't hate buy the show. People who like the show buy the show. That doesn't mean the show is good. It's good for the people who buy the show, who just happen to be a lot because it's a pretty fuckin big franchise aimed mostly at young people.

I seriously hate this argument. Yes quantity doesn’t = quality

But quality is subjective. Just because you dislike the show doesn’t mean it is bad show. It’s a strawman’s argument.

At least Baggie is using actual numbers to show that people enjoy the show. There are also tons of polls with large numbers of votes on Twitter that also show that people who dislike the show are definitely just a loud minority.

That doesn’t mean it’s a good show. Whether it’s a good or bad show is opinion. But everyone’s opinion is valid.
Quote me where I said the show is bad in that post.

So why did you bring up quality in the first place?

Wasn’t the initial discussion about whether people enjoy the show or are just watching it because it’s dragon ball and people will watch anything dragonball?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:25 am

Liquir wrote:DBS 129 Promo - Extended - Extra Scenes
https://twitter.com/DB__ZGTKAISUPER/sta ... 6205255680
RIP Crunchyroll
Last edited by OverHeaven on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:26 am

Kinokima wrote:and people will watch anything dragonball?
Yes, and this implies that people will watch a bad or mediocre show, or simply a show that won't fulfill their expectations, if it's Dragon Ball. It's inherently an argument about quality. And Baggie_Saiyan answered with sales.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:35 am

Doctor. wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Because it’s Dragon Ball. No matter the quality people are going to tune in.
Both the dub and sub have already been available months in advance of the BDs yet the BDs are still flying off the shelves.

If people didn't enjoy DBS then that wouldn't be happening. Hell even the retellings sold well despite the fact that both respective films were also available for the fraction of the price.

I seen folks say that "oh people just hate watch the show" but then you telling that people also "hate buy the show" too?
How is this still an argument? You'd expect that, in a world where 50 Shades of Grey sold over 150 million copies, people would have figured out by now that sales don't equal quality.

No, people don't hate buy the show. People who like the show buy the show. That doesn't mean the show is good. It's good for the people who buy the show, who just happen to be a lot because it's a pretty fuckin big franchise aimed mostly at young people.
People obviously like 50 shades then, I'm not gonna tell them they're wrong to think it's good or quality. In fact more power to them.

My original argument was rebuffing the stupidity that the show was a non commercial failure which in of itself doesn't make sense. If a lot of people think DBS is worth investing their money then it's obviously far from a failure.

It people like you who need to stop spinning DBS as somesort of failed product. How can something be a fandom failure or whatever dumb comments people are spouting here.

Edit- Also being part of a huge franchise doesn't mean something is always gonna be a success or has a better chance to be. DB itself has had failures and even something as recently as JL, where the public and fans collectively decided that they had enough of WB shenanigans. It got outshone by Jumanji! Jumanji is not a monster franchise.
Last edited by Baggie_Saiyan on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:37 am

Doctor. wrote:
Kinokima wrote:and people will watch anything dragonball?
Yes, and this implies that people will watch a bad or mediocre show, or simply a show that won't fulfill their expectations, if it's Dragon Ball. It's inherently an argument about quality. And Baggie_Saiyan answered with sales.

No the point of sales is why would people spend money on something they don’t enjoy?

People argue that someone will watch anything DB even if they don’t enjoy it. But why would people purchase something they dislike.


The argument about sales had absolutely nothing to do with quality!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:41 am

Kinokima wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Kinokima wrote:and people will watch anything dragonball?
Yes, and this implies that people will watch a bad or mediocre show, or simply a show that won't fulfill their expectations, if it's Dragon Ball. It's inherently an argument about quality. And Baggie_Saiyan answered with sales.

No the point of sales is why would people spend money on something they don’t enjoy?

People argue that someone will watch anything DB even if they don’t enjoy it. But why would people purchase something they dislike.


The argument about sales had absolutely nothing to do with quality!
Quality is almost always inherently tied to enjoyment. Dragon Ball isn't a so bad it's good type of show, so I have no idea what you're on about.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:It people like you who need to stop spinning DBS as somesort of failed product.
I never said DBS was a failed product. Don't put words in my mouth.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:43 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: People obviously like 50 shades then, I'm not gonna tell them they're wrong to think it's good or quality. In fact more power to them.

My original argument was rebuffing the stupidity that the show was a non commercial failure which in of itself doesn't make sense. If a lot of people think DBS is worth investing their money then it's obviously far from a failure.

It people like you who need to stop spinning DBS as somesort of failed product. How can something be a fandom failure or whatever dumb comments people are spouting here.
Speaking on a personal level, despite the fact people loved using 50 Shades, Twilight, and the live-action Transformers as their go to 'they sell a lot, but they suck' argument including me, objectively speaking they did something right. Despite everyone in their mother saying that they suck, they're still highly successful and beloved by the people who swear by it, which is a huge audience.

Of course, the common go to argument against it is 'people have terrible taste' but that doesn't explained why other products of 'terrible quality' bombs if the general audiences just watch, read, and buy anything. You also have stuff like there being fans who loved Harry Potter and Twilight despite people saying that there is a giant different in quality. So if these people had the 'good taste' to loved Harry Potter, how can their taste be so bad to loved Twilight at the same time?

What makes a produced liked/hated/ or indifferent is far more complicated than people are willing to give credit to. It's just easier to say 'people have terrible taste'.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Edit- Also being part of a huge franchise doesn't mean something is always gonna be a success or has a better chance to be. DB itself has had failures and even something as recently as JL, where the public and fans collectively decided that they had enough of WB shenanigans. It got outshone by Jumanji! Jumanji is not a monster franchise.
Jumanji Imo isn't the best example. The new Jumanji movie is a revival of a cult classic and from what I've heard, it's actually pretty good.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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