"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Kenneth La Torre
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:54 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I guess Vegeta's the rival Beerus was looking for, because Goku would crush him with no difficulty now.
That’s actually a good idea. If super ever comes back, let vegeta attain MUI fighting beerus while training, and then beerus would have wished he never met Saiyans :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:10 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I guess Vegeta's the rival Beerus was looking for, because Goku would crush him with no difficulty now.
True... Goku is more comparable to the Angels now than the GoD. Although I don't think Vegeta would give Beerus much of a challenge yet.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:16 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I guess Vegeta's the rival Beerus was looking for, because Goku would crush him with no difficulty now.
I think Vegeta's already surpassed him (among others) based on how well he did against Toppo who's on their level. It's such a shame to see years worth of stroytelling between their rivalry with the destroyers and the potential of other universes wasted within a handful of episodes.
Last edited by sintzu on Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:19 pm

Brettjr25 wrote:
Xeogran wrote:Jiren STILL not revealing his wish is absurdal at this point. The series is ending and we don't know what the final boss is even fighting for.

He's like a wall not a character, I tried to defend him at first but he's just so boring. Not even his attacks are named nor visually fun.
I think not having your entiren universe erased is good enough motivation.
Not even that is a motivation for Jiren, seeing how he absolutely didn't care to eliminate the likes of Goku and Vegeta when he easily could, or help his teammates in need.

He's just.. a wall.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:20 pm

kinisking wrote:This arc has legitimately been the absolute worst in all of canon dragonball If i don't include the retellings (I actually liked the BOG one though).
Pacing: Absolutely horrible. Moments that have no need to be drawn out are such as Jiren constantly no selling things, vegeta fighting in base for a majority of an episode, and the whole kefla thing, and things that need more focus such as Gohan versus Dyspo, tien's elimination or Krillin are absolutely rushed. I feel like this arc has been drawn out but still has no substance?

Character usage: CRAP. 80 fighters and barely any put up a fight? instead of having Goku and Vegeta barely put any effort against opponents, pit those opponents against the earthlings and give Goku and Vegeta stronger opponents. Or they should have had separate battle royales and grouped people by powerlevel. Roshi, Gohan, 17, Vegeta, Goku, Kale/ Caulifla, Toppo, Jiren, Dyspo and Anilaza are the only characters that I am satisfied with. I'm completely dissapointed by universe 9, Krillin, Piccolo, Universe 10, Tien, Hit, the commander in the pride troopers, Ribrianne,universe 4, and Cabba. I'm probably dissapointed with more but can't remember them because of their crap character usage. Barely any of the fighters outside of u7 even eliminated anyone just so Goku and Vegeta could make up like 30 percent of the eliminations.

Animation: Despite having more consistent animation, the reuse is disgusting at this point. A climax episode like this should not have had as much reuse as it did. They obviously don't care about the series now that its ending.

Writing: Universes are being erased. Why am I barely feeling any emotional impact? Why aren't the fighters acting a lot more desperate and fearful of the situation? Why are most of the fighters copy and paste generic cocky villian types when we could have had diverse personalities? Imagine how much better it would be if we saw more fighters with hearts filled with gold. Fighters that regretted every elimination they did and genuinely felt bad for the universes getting eliminated. Imagine if we had a scene where a fighter broke down crying after a universe was eliminated and refused to fight anymore. Jiren was an amazing idea. We could have had a genuine super hero to show how morally ambiguous this arc could be but he ended up just being an asshole. Toppo should have been the main antagonist. If they toned down the justice and made him less of a caricature but still showed he was an amazing guy deep down only for him to break under the circumstances? He would have been my favorite antagonist.

Yes, Dragonball has never been complicated. But at least it never tried to be. Now it's trying to be and just fails at it. Let's go back to beating simple villians, using simple methods, within a simple setting.
It simply tried to do to much and it bit of more than they could chew.


I'm not going to say, Toei doesn't care because I don't know if they personally do, its more like they simply didn't have a plan to handle everything this arc could have done.


I knew they couldn't do it, we all knew it but we were at least hoping they could make it worthwhile and once again, we have polarizing arc to end off a polarizing series.

I guess modern dragon Ball is modern star wars.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:27 pm

Regarding Goku Blanco, I like how he looks emotionless in Xenoverse 2. I wish they would've at least done the same thing here to compensate for his lame appearance.
dbgtFO wrote:
Shaqazooloo wrote:Also, I really hate the title for the next episode "The Greatest Showdown of All Time! The Ultimate Survival Battle!". Like really? I hate to say this but it sounds like something a 10 year would come up with and screams " Please Watch, we REALLY need the rating guys!".
Well it's aimed at 10 year olds, so if anything that just shows the Toei staff know what their demographic wants to hear.
I think this is what Toei are basing Zenos' reactions on. And probably themselves as well lmao.
It is very obvious in that "Warrior. Sleep" line and how badass/cool they think it is.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:54 pm

Totamo wrote:I'm not going to say, Toei doesn't care because I don't know if they personally do, its more like they simply didn't have a plan to handle everything this arc could have done.
I think more of the blame is on Toriyama as it's his outline wasting everything in one go. He had no business introducing and throwing away these universes the way he did so instead of just doing whatever because he had no other plans fro them he should've did something else and left the universes' concept to someone who can write things on a large scale.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:24 pm

sintzu wrote:
Totamo wrote:I'm not going to say, Toei doesn't care because I don't know if they personally do, its more like they simply didn't have a plan to handle everything this arc could have done.
I think more of the blame is on Toriyama as it's his outline wasting everything in one go. He had no business introducing and throwing away these universes the way he did so instead of just doing whatever because he had no other plans fro them he should've did something else and left the universes' concept to someone who can write things on a large scale.
How do you know he has no plans for them? If its because these are supposed to be the strongest of them all, may I remind you, he did the same thing with Freeza. Toriyama does not explore, he expands.Also what do you mean larger larger scale? These are the biggest stakes dragon Ball has ever had. It just doesn’t feel like it.


And regardless of that, its still their execution of the events. They chose to make the recruitment arc longer than it needed to be, they chose to scale fighters in a way that caused division, they chose to give vegeta a nakama power up, they chose to spend too much time on fodder, they chose to give Jiren his backstory now. They chose to reuse animation. They chose to contradict dialogue episode by episode.


This arc was doomed from conception based off the sheer magnitude of it and I have defended that so much so people call me a super apologist but you can't tell me, this couldn't have been more logical, more emotional and more technical in fighting.

Most of you guys asked for a story and character usage, me? All I asked for was material to watch and have fun over but I didn't even get that here because Toei wasted time on things they simply shouldn't have because they KNEW it wouldn't go anywhere.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:33 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I guess Vegeta's the rival Beerus was looking for, because Goku would crush him with no difficulty now.
That’s actually a good idea. If super ever comes back, let vegeta attain MUI fighting beerus while training, and then beerus would have wished he never met Saiyans :lol:
Except that Beerus can attain MUI as well and he has already ultra instinct (incomplete) :?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:36 pm

Legion wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I guess Vegeta's the rival Beerus was looking for, because Goku would crush him with no difficulty now.
That’s actually a good idea. If super ever comes back, let vegeta attain MUI fighting beerus while training, and then beerus would have wished he never met Saiyans :lol:
Except that Beerus can attain MUI as well and he has already ultra instinct (incomplete) :?
Yeah, I don't see where people get Goku can beat Beerus now. We don't know how strong beerus is.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:40 pm

Legion wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I guess Vegeta's the rival Beerus was looking for, because Goku would crush him with no difficulty now.
That’s actually a good idea. If super ever comes back, let vegeta attain MUI fighting beerus while training, and then beerus would have wished he never met Saiyans :lol:
Except that Beerus can attain MUI as well and he has already ultra instinct (incomplete) :?
No god of destruction has MUI and saying he can achieve it is headcanon.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:51 pm

If anyone wants to argue about strength, don’t bring it on to this thread, there’s already one for that.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:54 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Legion wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
That’s actually a good idea. If super ever comes back, let vegeta attain MUI fighting beerus while training, and then beerus would have wished he never met Saiyans :lol:
Except that Beerus can attain MUI as well and he has already ultra instinct (incomplete) :?
No god of destruction has MUI and saying he can achieve it is headcanon.
Is headcanon that the Gods can't achieve MUI even if they can already use incomplete UI (or at least, Beerus can), but Vegeta MUI is not an headcanon? Ok. It's funny because Vegeta said he doesn't want UI :?

Just to clarify, Goku achieved MUI in 5 minutes because plot and because super is ending.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:00 pm

Legion wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Legion wrote: Except that Beerus can attain MUI as well and he has already ultra instinct (incomplete) :?
No god of destruction has MUI and saying he can achieve it is headcanon.
Is headcanon that the Gods can't achieve MUI even if they can already use incomplete UI (or at least, Beerus can), but Vegeta MUI is not an headcanon? Ok. It's funny because Vegeta said he doesn't want UI :?

Just to clarify, Goku achieved MUI in 5 minutes because plot and because super is ending.
Oh no, vegeta achieving MUI is also headcanon, just saying that if super ever decides to go that route, beerus would be the prefect opponent for him.

Anyway

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781

People would gladly debate with here when it comes to strength. Lets leave this for the discussion of spoilers, episodes, and announcements.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:57 pm

Anyone know the name of the soundtrack that started at this moment:
Image
I mean the version without the song "ka ka kachi daze". I couldn't find this version, is it not included in the latest release or did I just miss it somehow?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:43 pm

OverHeaven wrote:I mean the version without the song "ka ka kachi daze". I couldn't find this version, is it not included in the latest release or did I just miss it somehow?
This one? Also ask on that thread next time.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:09 pm

kinisking wrote:This arc has legitimately been the absolute worst in all of canon dragonball If i don't include the retellings (I actually liked the BOG one though).
Pacing: Absolutely horrible. Moments that have no need to be drawn out are such as Jiren constantly no selling things, vegeta fighting in base for a majority of an episode, and the whole kefla thing, and things that need more focus such as Gohan versus Dyspo, tien's elimination or Krillin are absolutely rushed. I feel like this arc has been drawn out but still has no substance?

Character usage: CRAP. 80 fighters and barely any put up a fight? instead of having Goku and Vegeta barely put any effort against opponents, pit those opponents against the earthlings and give Goku and Vegeta stronger opponents. Or they should have had separate battle royales and grouped people by powerlevel. Roshi, Gohan, 17, Vegeta, Goku, Kale/ Caulifla, Toppo, Jiren, Dyspo and Anilaza are the only characters that I am satisfied with. I'm completely dissapointed by universe 9, Krillin, Piccolo, Universe 10, Tien, Hit, the commander in the pride troopers, Ribrianne,universe 4, and Cabba. I'm probably dissapointed with more but can't remember them because of their crap character usage. Barely any of the fighters outside of u7 even eliminated anyone just so Goku and Vegeta could make up like 30 percent of the eliminations.

Animation: Despite having more consistent animation, the reuse is disgusting at this point. A climax episode like this should not have had as much reuse as it did. They obviously don't care about the series now that its ending.

Writing: Universes are being erased. Why am I barely feeling any emotional impact? Why aren't the fighters acting a lot more desperate and fearful of the situation? Why are most of the fighters copy and paste generic cocky villian types when we could have had diverse personalities? Imagine how much better it would be if we saw more fighters with hearts filled with gold. Fighters that regretted every elimination they did and genuinely felt bad for the universes getting eliminated. Imagine if we had a scene where a fighter broke down crying after a universe was eliminated and refused to fight anymore. Jiren was an amazing idea. We could have had a genuine super hero to show how morally ambiguous this arc could be but he ended up just being an asshole. Toppo should have been the main antagonist. If they toned down the justice and made him less of a caricature but still showed he was an amazing guy deep down only for him to break under the circumstances? He would have been my favorite antagonist.

Yes, Dragonball has never been complicated. But at least it never tried to be. Now it's trying to be and just fails at it. Let's go back to beating simple villians, using simple methods, within a simple setting.
Everything you wrote, besides animation, ties into the same category: bad writing. And I agree--the writing has been abysmal, and everything could have been executed much, much better, including the structure of the tournament itself, but honestly, that's been the case with all of Super. In fact, the bar had sunk so low for me that by the time this arc started, I became desensitized to inconsistencies, poor character development, and bad structure. As a result, this has been my absolute favorite arc in this series. The animation, battles, updated soundtrack, and Goku's new form have compensated for everything else because they've actually given me desire to go back to specific scenes and rewatch them. Not a single other arc in this atrocious series has done this. Take the Goku Black arc, for example. Its story was more interesting, but it was also poorly structured with a bad case of repetition, a lame and underwhelming plot twist, and almost no memorable battles. Its best (i.e. Vegeta getting stabbed, Vegito vs Merged Zamasu, and the Trunks/Goku tag-team) were still very subpar compared to so many of the ToP battles (this is including the recruitment episodes btw).

And can you really say the Champa arc was any better? Again, the battles, choreography, and animation were abysmal; the soundtrack was blah; NO character besides Goku and Vegeta got any spotlight; most new characters were underdeveloped; and there was NO tension at all. It was less long-winded than the ToP arc, but it was also boring as HFIL. DB is a visual medium, and the ToP delivers in that regard, making it the very best in Super (not really saying much here, mind you), imo.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:38 pm

Totamo wrote:How do you know he has no plans for them ? If its because these are supposed to be the strongest of them all, may I remind you, he did the same thing with Freeza.

And regardless of that, its still their execution of the events. This arc was doomed from conception based off the sheer magnitude of it.
The difference is that Freeza was a fully developed and well used character. We've gotten 65 new characters out of nowhere with less than 10 being properly used, everyone else is the same copy-paste no personality fodder.

Their execution wouldn't have been as bad had Toriyama not given them something on this scale and had he been more involved with it. Looking back at modern DB, most of its problems go back to Toriyama and everyone bowing to him.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:05 am

sintzu wrote:
Totamo wrote:How do you know he has no plans for them ? If its because these are supposed to be the strongest of them all, may I remind you, he did the same thing with Freeza.

And regardless of that, its still their execution of the events. This arc was doomed from conception based off the sheer magnitude of it.
The difference is that Freeza was a fully developed and well used character. We've gotten 65 new characters out of nowhere with less than 10 being properly used, everyone else is the same copy-paste no personality fodder.

Their execution wouldn't have been as bad had Toriyama not given them something on this scale and had he been more involved with it. Looking back at modern DB, most of its problems go back to Toriyama and everyone bowing to him.
Wait, so the execution is bad because he gave them something too large and let them do it themselves but the overall problem is that everyone doesn't question him even though he lets them decide the technical fighting, the dialogue and everything else that actual matters? Toriyama lets everyone do whatever they want, he does not care which is why he does the bare minimum.

Outlines don't matter, ideas don't matter. Its all about the execution of it all. Thats basic storytelling 101, you can do whatever you want, just don't screw it up. Ball had 3 damn tournaments and only 1 of them had a villain. Z was the same thing 4 times in a row, bad guy comes to town, stomps heroes, heroes get stronger and beat bad guy.


Freeza was the strongest warrior in the universe and Goku defeated him using a legendary form. How can you honestly sit there and tell me that was different than him defeating the strongest warriors in the multiverse with a legendary technique just because the final boss was better used even Freeza also didn't do anything until the end of the arc, also wasted time with the heroes and his arrogance lead to his to demise. The point was Freeza was the top of the food chain and Goku beat him so why should we explore the universe then? So, yes , the universe was thrown away.

Which brings me to my next point, The problem with Modern dragon ball is Z and fans like you that refuse to admit that Z started a lot of this. The transformation taking over anything, Goku being an idiot for the sake of plot, the power creep and villains being generic assholes. Whenever someone points out that Z also did this, people defend it and say it was different, which is sheer hypocrisy. Z is not well renowned outside this fandom, hell not even in this fandom, people think ball was better and many have called Toriyama a bad writer because of z. Before super even happened, people bashed that show hard and we fans defended it with a sword and shield. i was one of them and still is.

I defend Toei from a lot of shit, but they aren't liked in the anime community for a reason.


If ball was made and had the popularity of z and he made Z now, it would be scrutinized outside of the first 2 sagas and you know that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:05 am

sintzu wrote:
Totamo wrote:How do you know he has no plans for them ? If its because these are supposed to be the strongest of them all, may I remind you, he did the same thing with Freeza.

And regardless of that, its still their execution of the events. This arc was doomed from conception based off the sheer magnitude of it.
The difference is that Freeza was a fully developed and well used character. We've gotten 65 new characters out of nowhere with less than 10 being properly used, everyone else is the same copy-paste no personality fodder.

Their execution wouldn't have been as bad had Toriyama not given them something on this scale and had he been more involved with it. Looking back at modern DB, most of its problems go back to Toriyama and everyone bowing to him.
Wait, so the execution is bad because he gave them something too large and let them do it themselves but the overall problem is that everyone doesn't question him even though he lets them decide the technical fighting, the dialogue and everything else that actual matters? Toriyama lets everyone do whatever they want, he does not care which is why he does the bare minimum.

Outlines don't matter, ideas don't matter. Its all about the execution of it all. Thats basic storytelling 101, you can do whatever you want, just don't screw it up. Ball had 3 damn tournaments and only 1 of them had a villain. Z was the same thing 4 times in a row, bad guy comes to town, stomps heroes, heroes get stronger and beat bad guy.


Freeza was the strongest warrior in the universe and Goku defeated him using a legendary form. How can you honestly sit there and tell me that was different than him defeating the strongest warriors in the multiverse with a legendary technique just because the final boss was better used even Freeza also didn't do anything until the end of the arc, also wasted time with the heroes and his arrogance lead to his to demise. The point was Freeza was the top of the food chain and Goku beat him so why should we explore the universe then? So, yes , the universe was thrown away.

Which brings me to my next point, The problem with Modern dragon ball is Z and fans like you that refuse to admit that Z started a lot of this. The transformation taking over anything, Goku being an idiot for the sake of plot, the power creep and villains being generic assholes. Whenever someone points out that Z also did this, people defend it and say it was different, which is sheer hypocrisy. Z is not well renowned outside this fandom, hell not even in this fandom, people think ball was better and many have called Toriyama a bad writer because of z. Before super even happened, people bashed that show hard and we fans defended it with a sword and shield. i was one of them and still is.

I defend Toei from a lot of shit, but they aren't liked in the anime community for a reason.


If ball was made and had the popularity of z and he made Z now, it would be scrutinized outside of the first 2 sagas and you know that.

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