"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:19 am

Totamo wrote:The execution is bad because he gave them something too large and let them do it themselves but the overall problem is that everyone doesn't question him even though he lets them decide everything that actual matters ?

Toriyama lets everyone do whatever they want, he does not care which is why he does the bare minimum.

Freeza was the strongest warrior in the universe and Goku defeated him using a legendary form. How can you honestly sit there and tell me that was different than him defeating the strongest warriors in the multiverse with a legendary technique ?

Freeza was the top of the food chain and Goku beat him so why should we explore the universe then ? So, yes , the universe was thrown away.

The problem with Modern dragon ball is Z and fans like you that refuse to admit that Z started a lot of this. The transformation taking over anything, Goku being an idiot for the sake of plot, the power creep and villains being generic assholes.

Z is not well renowned outside this fandom.

If ball was made and had the popularity of z and he made Z now, it would be scrutinized outside of the first 2 sagas and you know that.
The execution is bad because he gave them a big story but didn't do much with it and no one would call him out on it.

Then why is he still the head writer ? if he cares so little then why not bring in someone who actually cares ? If someone didn't care about their job and it was having negative results on their work, wouldn't the logical thing to do is replace them with someone who does care and who can get good results ?

Freeza was one character and he wasn't completely out of Goku's league. What's going on now is that Goku somehow went from completely nothing to the destroyers (12 compared to 1) to completely leaving them in the dust with 0 build up. That's nowhere close to what happened with how he surpassed Freeza as we saw him gradually get stronger up to that point and even then Freeza still put up a very good fight. Him surpassing the destroyers now would be like Kid Goku from when we first met him in the woods surpassing Freeza.

Why make the same mistake again ?

A lot of people including myself have pointed out the mistakes Z made and the chances Super wasted in fixing them. The transformations could've been left behind had Toriyama stuck to his original plan to just focus on base and Ssj but instead we have even more forms than we did in Z. Goku's character also could've been fixed but instead he's worse than before. The power issues between characters could've been fixed by having everyone train with Whis. Black was a great villain but unlike the villains in the original, he was completely wasted.

The original manga as a whole shaped the industy as we know it so it being disliked by a minority is irrelevant.

There's no way to know how Z or DB as a whole would've been recieved had it released today as standards are always changing. The problem with Super is not only did it not take any of those new standards into account, it didn't even take what its original source material set into account. At the very bare minimum it should've lived up to the original. Saying those 2 arcs wouldn't do well today is like saying the first MGS or Final fantasy 7 wouldn't do well if they were released exactly as they were back then. That may (in those 2 cases is) true but it's not a fair comparison. The original manga including those 2 arcs at the time (1995) was on a completely different level from everything released then and before which is exactly how it and those 2 games became the mega hits they are today, they were ahead of their time.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
RedHeat
Regular
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by RedHeat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:00 am

sintzu wrote:
Totamo wrote:The execution is bad because he gave them something too large and let them do it themselves but the overall problem is that everyone doesn't question him even though he lets them decide everything that actual matters ?

Toriyama lets everyone do whatever they want, he does not care which is why he does the bare minimum.

Freeza was the strongest warrior in the universe and Goku defeated him using a legendary form. How can you honestly sit there and tell me that was different than him defeating the strongest warriors in the multiverse with a legendary technique ?

Freeza was the top of the food chain and Goku beat him so why should we explore the universe then ? So, yes , the universe was thrown away.

The problem with Modern dragon ball is Z and fans like you that refuse to admit that Z started a lot of this. The transformation taking over anything, Goku being an idiot for the sake of plot, the power creep and villains being generic assholes.

Z is not well renowned outside this fandom.

If ball was made and had the popularity of z and he made Z now, it would be scrutinized outside of the first 2 sagas and you know that.
The execution is bad because he gave them a big story but didn't do much with it and no one would call him out on it.

Then why is he still the head writer ? if he cares so little then why not bring in someone who actually cares ? If someone didn't care about their job and it was having negative results on their work, wouldn't the logical thing to do is replace them with someone who does care and who can get good results ?
Because maybe he wanted to work on it? You can't just tell the creator of a franchise has being replaced.
Feels over Reals.

User avatar
OverHeaven
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:02 pm
Location: SA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by OverHeaven » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:23 am

Did they state what is Whis's level among the angels?
At least, knowledge-wise, he seems to way above Marcarita

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:24 am

RedHeat wrote:Because maybe he wanted to work on it ?

You can't just tell the creator of a franchise he's being replaced.
Then work on it. All he's been doing is giving vague outlines which are a far cry from what he did in the original manga and what you'd expect from an actual story.

All they'd have to do is say they want actual stories and not plot outlines. Another thing they could do is team him up with someone who can give and take ideas with him that can result in actual stories.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
perucho1990
I Live Here
Posts: 2347
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:04 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:03 am

Toriyama should just character to character designs like in GT, let someone else do the outlines.

Come on, imagine how great this arc couldve been if someone like Kubo or Kishimoto were doing it instead, better character development, better antagonists that arent copy and pasty generic villain number 34023423432.

The ToP has exposed how mediocre DBS has been, now it will be forgotten with the returns of Hero Academia, Tokyo Ghoul, Captain Tsubasa, etc.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:16 am

perucho1990 wrote:Imagine how great this arc couldve been if someone like Kubo or Kishimoto were doing it instead, better character development, better antagonists that arent copy and pasty generic villain number 34023423432.

The ToP has exposed how mediocre DBS has been, now it will be forgotten with the returns of Hero Academia, Tokyo Ghoul, Captain Tsubasa, etc.
A Kishimoto DB would be a dream come true as what he did with Naruto was simply amazing from nearly every aspect.

If Super couldn't live up to the original DB then there's no way it can even compare to newer things such as what you mentioned. The biggest issue holding it back is the lack of an actual plot and instead trying to rely on very vague outlines. The least they could do is have an actual story which should be a given with anything.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

CriticalThinker
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:56 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:24 am

perucho1990 wrote:Toriyama should just character to character designs like in GT, let someone else do the outlines.

Come on, imagine how great this arc couldve been if someone like Kubo or Kishimoto were doing it instead, better character development, better antagonists that arent copy and pasty generic villain number 34023423432.

The ToP has exposed how mediocre DBS has been, now it will be forgotten with the returns of Hero Academia, Tokyo Ghoul, Captain Tsubasa, etc.
I mean I don't think many will argue against you that DBS has been mediocre, yet many people talk about the show and watch it every week despite that, myself included. Also I highly doubt that the show is going to be suddenly forgotten about just because new shows are coming out, that's kind of a ridiculous statement mate.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:31 am

CriticalThinker wrote:I don't think many will argue against you that DBS has been mediocre, yet many people talk about the show and watch it every week despite that, myself included.
Watching it doesn't mean we won't have issues with it. Most of us watch it every week because we like DB and it's not so bad that it's unwatchable. It being free also helps.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

CriticalThinker
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:56 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:39 am

sintzu wrote:
CriticalThinker wrote:I don't think many will argue against you that DBS has been mediocre, yet many people talk about the show and watch it every week despite that, myself included.
Watching it doesn't mean we won't have issues with it. Most of us watch it every week because we like DB and it's not so bad that it's unwatchable. It being free also helps.
I know since I'm in a similar camp as I do have issues with the show but despite those issues I still enjoy it. True as well that many do watch it because it is a new Dragon ball show and true as well that many people are more willing to watch something for free than having to pay.

ToshioWrites
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:49 am

Lets say Hypothetically Jiren gets UI too ( thats his dormant power). What would your reaction be?

User avatar
BlueBasilisk
I Live Here
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:58 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:04 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:Lets say Hypothetically Jiren gets UI too ( thats his dormant power). What would your reaction be?
Wouldn't be the least bit surprised. Actually, after seeing him with that red heat haze aura in the NEP, I'll be more suprised if he doesn't have something to that effect.

ToshioWrites
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:19 pm

ALSO I just want to say SSGSS Evolution as the official name for Vegeta new form is trash

https://twitter.com/dbreduxtdc/status/9 ... 75584?s=21

User avatar
Ki Breaker
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6570
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:24 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:Lets say Hypothetically Jiren gets UI too ( thats his dormant power). What would your reaction be?
His character is punching stuff away and repeating "it's over" over and over again, he literally acts like a dumb algorithm any newbie can whip out..
In fact his entire being can be summed up as -

Check if attack is true
If true punch really hard, rotate body(180°) set hands equal to folded
When hands folded output "it's over"
Else set temp_emotion as surprised
When temp_emotion true, powerup some more

So yes, he can pull out Zeno's erasure next and I won't be the least bit surprised..
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

User avatar
OverHeaven
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:02 pm
Location: SA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by OverHeaven » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:46 pm

CriticalThinker wrote:
perucho1990 wrote:Toriyama should just character to character designs like in GT, let someone else do the outlines.

Come on, imagine how great this arc couldve been if someone like Kubo or Kishimoto were doing it instead, better character development, better antagonists that arent copy and pasty generic villain number 34023423432.

The ToP has exposed how mediocre DBS has been, now it will be forgotten with the returns of Hero Academia, Tokyo Ghoul, Captain Tsubasa, etc.
I highly doubt that the show is going to be suddenly forgotten about just because new shows are coming out, that's kind of a ridiculous statement mate.
It's not only that new shows are coming, but Super is ending as well so yeah. It's just a matter of time.
Next season includes:Steins;Gate 0, Shokugeki no Souma Promotion Exams Arc
and Boku no Hero Academia 3 (Manga readers know what's coming - episode of the year is already decided)

I can't imagine Super ending on a cliffhanger that'll make people speculate and discuss it for a long time.

User avatar
Totamo
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1837
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:11 pm

sintzu wrote:
Totamo wrote:The execution is bad because he gave them something too large and let them do it themselves but the overall problem is that everyone doesn't question him even though he lets them decide everything that actual matters ?

Toriyama lets everyone do whatever they want, he does not care which is why he does the bare minimum.

Freeza was the strongest warrior in the universe and Goku defeated him using a legendary form. How can you honestly sit there and tell me that was different than him defeating the strongest warriors in the multiverse with a legendary technique ?

Freeza was the top of the food chain and Goku beat him so why should we explore the universe then ? So, yes , the universe was thrown away.

The problem with Modern dragon ball is Z and fans like you that refuse to admit that Z started a lot of this. The transformation taking over anything, Goku being an idiot for the sake of plot, the power creep and villains being generic assholes.

Z is not well renowned outside this fandom.

If ball was made and had the popularity of z and he made Z now, it would be scrutinized outside of the first 2 sagas and you know that.
The execution is bad because he gave them a big story but didn't do much with it and no one would call him out on it.

Then why is he still the head writer ? if he cares so little then why not bring in someone who actually cares ? If someone didn't care about their job and it was having negative results on their work, wouldn't the logical thing to do is replace them with someone who does care and who can get good results ?

Freeza was one character and he wasn't completely out of Goku's league. What's going on now is that Goku somehow went from completely nothing to the destroyers (12 compared to 1) to completely leaving them in the dust with 0 build up. That's nowhere close to what happened with how he surpassed Freeza as we saw him gradually get stronger up to that point and even then Freeza still put up a very good fight. Him surpassing the destroyers now would be like Kid Goku from when we first met him in the woods surpassing Freeza.

Why make the same mistake again ?

A lot of people including myself have pointed out the mistakes Z made and the chances Super wasted in fixing them. The transformations could've been left behind had Toriyama stuck to his original plan to just focus on base and Ssj but instead we have even more forms than we did in Z. Goku's character also could've been fixed but instead he's worse than before. The power issues between characters could've been fixed by having everyone train with Whis. Black was a great villain but unlike the villains in the original, he was completely wasted.

The original manga as a whole shaped the industy as we know it so it being disliked by a minority is irrelevant.

There's no way to know how Z or DB as a whole would've been recieved had it released today as standards are always changing. The problem with Super is not only did it not take any of those new standards into account, it didn't even take what its original source material set into account. At the very bare minimum it should've lived up to the original. Saying those 2 arcs wouldn't do well today is like saying the first MGS or Final fantasy 7 wouldn't do well if they were released exactly as they were back then. That may (in those 2 cases is) true but it's not a fair comparison. The original manga including those 2 arcs at the time (1995) was on a completely different level from everything released then and before which is exactly how it and those 2 games became the mega hits they are today, they were ahead of their time.
Literally everything you said here was the dumbest thing I have ever read on this site, including from the strength thread.

1. "He gave them a big story but didn't do much with it" because they have to do something with it, thats why its called execution. This entertainment 101. He gave them ideas, they have to make the most of it, no matter how dumb they are and don't say they can't, they made evil Goku look good.

2.Because he does get good results in moneymaking. Everything Toriyama has touched has made more money than anything toei has. Animation is expensive and it doesn't matter how good the story if it makes no money. This is business 101.This is the only reason why dragon ball was made. For money. He never cared even back then. He never planned anything out and took the lazyman manga wayout everytime. But you defended that lazy one, nit this lazy one.

3.Freeza was completely out of Goku's league, are you serious? Freeza wasn't even trying throughout the fight and Goku hit him with both a kaioken x20 and spirit bomb and he still had more power to show. Second, we have no idea how strong the gods are so what proof is there that he surpassed them? Even if it did, it took 5 arcs to do that. Also no it was not gradually, he got a transformation that he learned existed that same day and kicked Freeza's ass so bad that he gets bored with him. The anime also made that fight look much closer than it was.


4. Because it still the same franchise, if it made them money then why not now and they were not wrong. Not that's a lie. Z had more, all super has is 3, God, blue and UI, but if you want to count the omen, trunks form and Vegeta form, then we have to count the grades all 4 of them, super saiyan 1, 2 and 3 . That makes them even , oh wait ultimate gohan exists, thats 7. Goky being an idiot is why the story works around him so well, if he was smarter, he be gohan. A reactive character. But we would all complain that its dumb that whis is training retired martial artists who don't fight at the end of Z.

5. As i was reminded by a kind jojo fan, impact, doesn't equal quality, which is what many many bash.

6. No, there is a way, you compare the now to the then and see if it holds up to the standards of today. Thats why they are called classics. They stand the test of time if all the OG dragon Ball has is impact and no quality to back it up, then thats bad.When you say something like that it means dragon Ball succeeded because it was lucky it git the ideas first.

User avatar
RedHeat
Regular
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by RedHeat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:17 pm

perucho1990 wrote:Toriyama should just character to character designs like in GT, let someone else do the outlines.

Come on, imagine how great this arc couldve been if someone like Kubo or Kishimoto were doing it instead, better character development, better antagonists that arent copy and pasty generic villain number 34023423432.

The ToP has exposed how mediocre DBS has been, now it will be forgotten with the returns of Hero Academia, Tokyo Ghoul, Captain Tsubasa, etc.
You and show must be a match made in heaven.
Feels over Reals.

TheOtherDude
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:45 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheOtherDude » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:22 pm

perucho1990 wrote:Toriyama should just character to character designs like in GT, let someone else do the outlines.

Come on, imagine how great this arc couldve been if someone like Kubo or Kishimoto were doing it instead, better character development, better antagonists that arent copy and pasty generic villain number 34023423432.

The ToP has exposed how mediocre DBS has been, now it will be forgotten with the returns of Hero Academia, Tokyo Ghoul, Captain Tsubasa, etc.
I have to disagree with Kishimoto. While I know he has plenty to offer story wise, I don’t need a sentimental backstory for Frieza and why hes so merciless now.

I will say though that the lack of backstory really made it hard to empathize with other universes outside of U6.

User avatar
jeffbr92
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:49 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:26 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:The animation, battles, updated soundtrack, and Goku's new form have compensated for everything else because they've actually given me desire to go back to specific scenes and rewatch them. Not a single other arc in this atrocious series has done this. Take the Goku Black arc, for example. Its story was more interesting, but it was also poorly structured with a bad case of repetition, a lame and underwhelming plot twist, and almost no memorable battles. Its best (i.e. Vegeta getting stabbed, Vegito vs Merged Zamasu, and the Trunks/Goku tag-team) were still very subpar compared to so many of the ToP battles (this is including the recruitment episodes btw).
Sorry, but some of your points are flawed. Future Trunks arc (and that's the correct name not Goku Black) also had decent animation, battles and great soundtrack (mostly still some of the best in Super). That's probably was your case, but I had way more fun rewatching Goku Black reveal, Trunks having a PTSD after seeing Goku, Trunks sparring with Goku, Black vs. Goku, Zamasu vs. Goku, the whole sequence: Black/Zamasu vs. the Saiyans and many other scenes than some of this current arc.
ToP also is poorly structured with a lot of repetition (characters constantly wasting time talking or ATATATATA fights and ki blast spams). Also apart from Goku and pals vs. Universe 11 and some Kale, Caulifla, Kefla stuff... There's not much really impressive on the fights of this arc.
Power levels are not just big numbers:

by Doctor.

Dbzfan94
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5425
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:29 pm

jeffbr92 wrote: Sorry, but some of your points are flawed. Future Trunks arc (and that's the correct name not Goku Black) also had decent animation, battles and great soundtrack (mostly still some of the best in Super). That's probably was your case, but I had way more fun rewatching Goku Black reveal, Trunks having a PTSD after seeing Goku, Trunks sparring with Goku, Black vs. Goku, Zamasu vs. Goku, the whole sequence: Black/Zamasu vs. the Saiyans and many other scenes than some of this current arc.
ToP also is poorly structured with a lot of repetition (characters constantly wasting time talking or ATATATATA fights and ki blast spams). Also apart from Goku and pals vs. Universe 11 and some Kale, Caulifla, Kefla stuff... There's not much really impressive on the fights of this arc.
There's no "correct" name for an arc. Just like back in Z, we have Androids/Cell and even Namek/Freeza. Calling it the Black arc is just consistent with the arcs being villain names. I agree with the ToP being a lot of repetition (the ATATATATATATA especially is annoying as hell). Agreed on the other point too. Besides the big moments, the fights in the ToP were mostly lame.

User avatar
Totamo
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1837
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:36 pm

perucho1990 wrote:Toriyama should just character to character designs like in GT, let someone else do the outlines.

Come on, imagine how great this arc couldve been if someone like Kubo or Kishimoto were doing it instead, better character development, better antagonists that arent copy and pasty generic villain number 34023423432.

The ToP has exposed how mediocre DBS has been, now it will be forgotten with the returns of Hero Academia, Tokyo Ghoul, Captain Tsubasa, etc.
They are both worse writers than toriyama. Kubo made ichigo a reactive protagonist that wants to protect his friends and thats all, kishi made sauske, my most hated male character in fiction.kubo took the same plot and reused it twice and didn't change anything so everyone knew what he was doing and kishi was so bad that he did everything super did wrong in 3 years in only one arc, fuck the fourth shinobi war arc, fuck kaguya cuz sher ruined madara, fuck sakuasasu, it killed sakura's character, fuck the last, it killed naruto's character.You should have oda, but he just proved to me for the final that he can't build fights on a technical level , which dragon Ball is known for.


The worst aspects of these 4 main writers are why many say shonen manga sucks.

Post Reply