"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:59 pm

Jigurashi wrote:Where are you getting that Vegeta has more impressive feats from? Goku easily has better feats than Vegeta in Super.
Here
Power levels are not just big numbers:

by Doctor.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:01 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:Where are you getting that Vegeta has more impressive feats from? Goku easily has better feats than Vegeta in Super.
Here
Going toe to toe with Jiren is far more impressive than anything Vegeta has done or ever will do in the franchise. Let's stop kidding ourselves here. Akita/Toei would never give Vegeta that kind of rub as that's reserved for Goku.

They're not even in the same stratosphere in power levels anymore, and we don't even know if Vegeta will ever catch up as UI is supposedly more difficult for Vegeta to achieve.

The only thing Vegeta has really gotten in Super is character development. Goku on the other hand has regressed even more and is more one dimensional than ever. He's a weak protagonist compared to the new generation who are far deeper, more developed and thoughtful characters.
Last edited by Aman on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:04 pm

Aman wrote: The gap between pre TOP Goku and FP Jiren is a lot wider than that.

Beating an alien back then was one thing, Super is at end game content with Angels. gods and god of all. There isn't much else they can do other than to create more God tier characters which would get stale after a while. Goku has already achieved his ultimate form a second well, there's little else to do other than to prefect it (which they seem to have made room for).
40x is still a wide gap, especially since Goku went from weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta to 3 million in six days. That and he went from 90,000 to 3 million from one boost.

Piccolo was a demon back in Dragon Ball. In fact, he was the reborn Satan. And he became stronger than god in Dragon Ball, aka Kami. So Goku was 'god-tier' by the end of the original Dragon Ball.

And Super Saiyan was also called the 'ultimate form' and the 'strongest in the universe'.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:08 pm

HeroR wrote:
Aman wrote: The gap between pre TOP Goku and FP Jiren is a lot wider than that.

Beating an alien back then was one thing, Super is at end game content with Angels. gods and god of all. There isn't much else they can do other than to create more God tier characters which would get stale after a while. Goku has already achieved his ultimate form a second well, there's little else to do other than to prefect it (which they seem to have made room for).
40x is still a wide gap, especially since Goku went from weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta to 3 million in six days. That and he went from 90,000 to 3 million from one boost.

Piccolo was a demon back in Dragon Ball. In fact, he was the reborn Satan. And he became stronger than god in Dragon Ball, aka Kami. So Goku was 'god-tier' by the end of the original Dragon Ball.

And Super Saiyan was also called the 'ultimate form' and the 'strongest in the universe'.
Ultra Instinct is end game, there isn't much else you can do other than becoming God of All....

You're literally untouchable once it's perfected...
Last edited by Aman on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:08 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Vegeta had no more impressive feats than Goku. He really defeated a Hakaishin, but it's not something that Goku could not do. And the fact that Goku does not win does not mean much, considering the countless battles that he had in this saga and the various power ups he constantly received.
He did much more than any other, it does not make sense to complain just because he lost
Yes, he had:

- Vegeta surpassed Goku (no matter if it was for a brief time) and put a better fight against Beerus.
- Surpassed Goku again having trained first with Whis.
- Tapped into God Ki without having to turn into SSJ God (Goku complimented him for that).
- Eliminated more fighters than Goku in the Multiversal Tournament (Frost, Magetta, Cabba).
- Humiliated Black on their rematch while Goku put a good fight due rage but was taken down easily.
- IIRC Vegeta is the one who eliminated most fighters in the Universe 7 team.
- He may not have achieved UI, but unlocked a form to compete with KKx20 + Blue.
- No matter if Goku also could defeat a Hakaishin, Vegeta did it first.

Also you read that I said Goku is the protagonist? Not saying that he always has to win, but after all that build, after being trashed by Jiren the whole arc, he deserves the main win in the finale.

sintzu is a Vegeta fan like you and he addressed the issue without being biased:
sintzu wrote:The fact that Goku has lost nearly all his fights in Super.
The fact that UI has been built up as an unstoppable power.
The fact that Goku went through not one but TWO UI forms.
The fact that the destroyers all stood up when Goku reached MUI.

Taking all this into account, you still think Goku losing is a good idea? What do we know, Super is too high for us to understand its "genious" so whatever it does is automatically accepted.
Goku said that Vegeta 'may' have surpassed him in Resurrection 'F' .

The same people Goku could have taken out and Frost was weakened from getting his ass kicked by Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta knew about the poison needle unlike Goku and Piccolo.

And Goku melted half of Merged Zamasu's face and broke his halo, while Trunks and Vegeta together did jack.

Goku actually had more eliminations that Vegeta after 118.

Which is nice, if Kaioken x20 wasn't vastly outdated by this point.

Goku is fighting someone above a God of Destruction, so....
Aman wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Aman wrote: The gap between pre TOP Goku and FP Jiren is a lot wider than that.

Beating an alien back then was one thing, Super is at end game content with Angels. gods and god of all. There isn't much else they can do other than to create more God tier characters which would get stale after a while. Goku has already achieved his ultimate form a second well, there's little else to do other than to prefect it (which they seem to have made room for).
40x is still a wide gap, especially since Goku went from weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta to 3 million in six days. That and he went from 90,000 to 3 million from one boost.

Piccolo was a demon back in Dragon Ball. In fact, he was the reborn Satan. And he became stronger than god in Dragon Ball, aka Kami. So Goku was 'god-tier' by the end of the original Dragon Ball.

And Super Saiyan was also called the 'ultimate form' and the 'strongest in the universe'.
Ultra Instinct is end game, there isn't much else you can do other than becoming God of All....

You're literally untouchable once it's perfected...

And Super Saiyan was the original 'end game' since it was outright called the strongest being in the universe. And UI isn't untouchable since Whis with UI can't beat the Grand Priest.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:10 pm

I’m just waiting for the revelation of UI jiren :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:12 pm

HeroR wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Vegeta had no more impressive feats than Goku. He really defeated a Hakaishin, but it's not something that Goku could not do. And the fact that Goku does not win does not mean much, considering the countless battles that he had in this saga and the various power ups he constantly received.
He did much more than any other, it does not make sense to complain just because he lost
Yes, he had:

- Vegeta surpassed Goku (no matter if it was for a brief time) and put a better fight against Beerus.
- Surpassed Goku again having trained first with Whis.
- Tapped into God Ki without having to turn into SSJ God (Goku complimented him for that).
- Eliminated more fighters than Goku in the Multiversal Tournament (Frost, Magetta, Cabba).
- Humiliated Black on their rematch while Goku put a good fight due rage but was taken down easily.
- IIRC Vegeta is the one who eliminated most fighters in the Universe 7 team.
- He may not have achieved UI, but unlocked a form to compete with KKx20 + Blue.
- No matter if Goku also could defeat a Hakaishin, Vegeta did it first.

Also you read that I said Goku is the protagonist? Not saying that he always has to win, but after all that build, after being trashed by Jiren the whole arc, he deserves the main win in the finale.

sintzu is a Vegeta fan like you and he addressed the issue without being biased:
sintzu wrote:The fact that Goku has lost nearly all his fights in Super.
The fact that UI has been built up as an unstoppable power.
The fact that Goku went through not one but TWO UI forms.
The fact that the destroyers all stood up when Goku reached MUI.

Taking all this into account, you still think Goku losing is a good idea? What do we know, Super is too high for us to understand its "genious" so whatever it does is automatically accepted.
Goku said that Vegeta 'may' have surpassed him in Resurrection 'F' .

The same people Goku could have taken out and Frost was weakened from getting his ass kicked by Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta knew about the poison needle unlike Goku and Piccolo.

And Goku melted half of Merged Zamasu's face and broke his halo, while Trunks and Vegeta together did jack.

Goku actually had more eliminations that Vegeta after 118.

Which is nice, if Kaioken x20 wasn't vastly outdated by this point.

Goku is fighting someone above a God of Destruction, so....
Aman wrote:
HeroR wrote:
40x is still a wide gap, especially since Goku went from weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta to 3 million in six days. That and he went from 90,000 to 3 million from one boost.

Piccolo was a demon back in Dragon Ball. In fact, he was the reborn Satan. And he became stronger than god in Dragon Ball, aka Kami. So Goku was 'god-tier' by the end of the original Dragon Ball.

And Super Saiyan was also called the 'ultimate form' and the 'strongest in the universe'.
Ultra Instinct is end game, there isn't much else you can do other than becoming God of All....

You're literally untouchable once it's perfected...

And Super Saiyan was the original 'end game' since it was outright called the strongest being in the universe. And UI isn't untouchable since Whis with UI can't beat the Grand Priest.
They can't make up another end game without some BS Goku> God of All. Which would be the dumbest shit ever, but definitely possible with Akira and Toei.

Zeno is the one character that should never be close to being surpassed, but with DB writing it's sadly on the cards.

The series has jumped the shark in terms of telling a good story and has become all about power and transformations.
Last edited by Aman on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:14 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Vegeta had no more impressive feats than Goku. He really defeated a Hakaishin, but it's not something that Goku could not do. And the fact that Goku does not win does not mean much, considering the countless battles that he had in this saga and the various power ups he constantly received.
He did much more than any other, it does not make sense to complain just because he lost
Yes, he had:

- Vegeta surpassed Goku (no matter if it was for a brief time) and put a better fight against Beerus.
- Surpassed Goku again having trained first with Whis.
- Tapped into God Ki without having to turn into SSJ God (Goku complimented him for that).
- Eliminated more fighters than Goku in the Multiversal Tournament (Frost, Magetta, Cabba).
- Humiliated Black on their rematch while Goku put a good fight due rage but was taken down easily.
- IIRC Vegeta is the one who eliminated more fighters in the Universe 7 team.
- He may not have achieved UI, but unlocked a form to compete with KKx20 + Blue.
- No matter if Goku also could defeat a Hakaishin, Vegeta did it first.

Also you read that I said Goku is the protagonist? Not saying that he always has to win, but after all that build, after being trashed by Jiren the whole arc, he deserves the main win in the finale.

sintzu is a Vegeta fan like you and he addressed the issue without being biased:
sintzu wrote:The fact that Goku has lost nearly all his fights in Super.
The fact that UI has been built up as an unstoppable power.
The fact that Goku went through not one but TWO UI forms.
The fact that the destroyers all stood up when Goku reached MUI.

Taking all this into account, you still think Goku losing is a good idea? What do we know, Super is too high for us to understand its "genious" so whatever it does is automatically accepted.
Well, I think it's better to see the '' other side '' of your arguments

- Vegeta overtook Goku for a brief moment, in counterpart, before that he was literally stepped on and totally humiliated psychologically by Beerus (something that did not happen in the movie). And in the anime, Goku still beats the powers of the SSG in the fight against Beerus

- At the Champa tournament, Vegeta only eliminated fodder, nothing that Goku could not do. In the real battle, he served as a ladder and was humiliated by Hitto without striking a blow. After that, he was still overcome by Goku again (unlike the manga, in the anime Goku gets stronger than Vegeta during several sagas followed, something that was not even in DBZ)

- Beat Black for 3 minutes and shortly after Black took power out of nowhere and cornered Vegeta again, and only merged because Zamasu became scared, making it appear that all of Vegeta's training was useless (before, Vegeta had already been defeated twice ).

- Again, in the ToP, Vegeta practically also only eliminated fodder. Before the final against U11, he had no great fight like Goku and did not eliminate any great opponents.

- In particular, I consider Beyond Blue above KK x20. But is it serious that you are using this as an argument? It seems that the writers did not make an effort and make a shocking scene of transformation and in the end all this proved much inferior to the current UI Omen

Now, I'm going to show you everything Goku has done ONLY in this arc.

In the Exhibition tournament:

- Beat Bergamo easily, surprised all the gods with SSB
- He faced Toppo, a candidate for GoD, and was defeating him.

In Recruitment

- Faced Kuririn
- Faced 17
- Faced and beat Ultimate Gohan stronger than ever
- Faced Slim Boo
- Faced and beat Muten Roshi controlled
- Faced and tied with True Golden Freeza

In the tournament

- Eliminated an entire universe next to Vegeta on EP 98
- Faced Caulifla and Kale SSJ Berserker on EP 100
- Faced Dyspo and Kunshi alongside Hitto on EP 104 (with SSG return)
- Faced the U2 Sniper next to Vegeta on EP 106
- Had a one-hour special entirely dedicated to his fight against Jiren and gained power ups like SSB KK x20 and UI Omen on EP 109 and 110
- Faced Caulifla, Kale and Kefla for 4 episodes until activating UI Omen again on EP 113 - 116
- Faced and defeated the last 3 members of U2 on EP 118
- Facing the U3 robots next to Vegeta and Gohan on EP 120
- Faced and beat Aniraza alongside the U7 team on EP 121
- faced Jiren again and almost eliminated him using strategy
- And now, not only has he used UI Omen again, but he has mastered a technique that even the Gods can not easily master and overtake the Hakaishins

Compare that to any other member of U7, and you will see that Goku had an exaggerated highlight on this arc and much more fights than the others. It makes no sense to complain about his defeat.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:22 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Vegeta had no more impressive feats than Goku. He really defeated a Hakaishin, but it's not something that Goku could not do. And the fact that Goku does not win does not mean much, considering the countless battles that he had in this saga and the various power ups he constantly received.
He did much more than any other, it does not make sense to complain just because he lost
Yes, he had:

- Vegeta surpassed Goku (no matter if it was for a brief time) and put a better fight against Beerus.
- Surpassed Goku again having trained first with Whis.
- Tapped into God Ki without having to turn into SSJ God (Goku complimented him for that).
- Eliminated more fighters than Goku in the Multiversal Tournament (Frost, Magetta, Cabba).
- Humiliated Black on their rematch while Goku put a good fight due rage but was taken down easily.
- IIRC Vegeta is the one who eliminated more fighters in the Universe 7 team.
- He may not have achieved UI, but unlocked a form to compete with KKx20 + Blue.
- No matter if Goku also could defeat a Hakaishin, Vegeta did it first.

Also you read that I said Goku is the protagonist? Not saying that he always has to win, but after all that build, after being trashed by Jiren the whole arc, he deserves the main win in the finale.

sintzu is a Vegeta fan like you and he addressed the issue without being biased:
sintzu wrote:The fact that Goku has lost nearly all his fights in Super.
The fact that UI has been built up as an unstoppable power.
The fact that Goku went through not one but TWO UI forms.
The fact that the destroyers all stood up when Goku reached MUI.

Taking all this into account, you still think Goku losing is a good idea? What do we know, Super is too high for us to understand its "genious" so whatever it does is automatically accepted.
Well, I think it's better to see the '' other side '' of your arguments

- Vegeta overtook Goku for a brief moment, in counterpart, before that he was literally stepped on and totally humiliated psychologically by Beerus (something that did not happen in the movie). And in the anime, Goku still beats the powers of the SSG in the fight against Beerus

- At the Champa tournament, Vegeta only eliminated fodder, nothing that Goku could not do. In the real battle, he served as a ladder and was humiliated by Hitto without striking a blow. After that, he was still overcome by Goku again (unlike the manga, in the anime Goku gets stronger than Vegeta during several sagas followed, something that was not even in DBZ)

- Beat Black for 3 minutes and shortly after Black took power out of nowhere and cornered Vegeta again, and only merged because Zamasu became scared, making it appear that all of Vegeta's training was useless (before, Vegeta had already been defeated twice ).

- Again, in the ToP, Vegeta practically also only eliminated fodder. Before the final against U11, he had no great fight like Goku and did not eliminate any great opponents.

- In particular, I consider Beyond Blue above KK x20. But is it serious that you are using this as an argument? It seems that the writers did not make an effort and make a shocking scene of transformation and in the end all this proved much inferior to the current UI Omen

Now, I'm going to show you everything Goku has done ONLY in this arc.

In the Exhibition tournament:

- Beat Bergamo easily, surprised all the gods with SSB
- He faced Toppo, a candidate for GoD, and was defeating him.

In Recruitment

- Faced Kuririn
- Faced 17
- Faced and beat Ultimate Gohan stronger than ever
- Faced Slim Boo
- Faced and beat Muten Roshi controlled
- Faced and tied with True Golden Freeza

In the tournament

- Eliminated an entire universe next to Vegeta on EP 98
- Faced Caulifla and Kale SSJ Berserker on EP 100
- Faced Dyspo and Kunshi alongside Hitto on EP 104 (with SSG return)
- Faced the U2 Sniper next to Vegeta on EP 106
- Had a one-hour special entirely dedicated to his fight against Jiren and gained power ups like SSB KK x20 and UI Omen on EP 109 and 110
- Faced Caulifla, Kale and Kefla for 4 episodes until activating UI Omen again on EP 113 - 116
- Faced and defeated the last 3 members of U2 on EP 118
- Facing the U3 robots next to Vegeta and Gohan on EP 120
- Faced and beat Aniraza alongside the U7 team on EP 121
- faced Jiren again and almost eliminated him using strategy
- And now, not only has he used UI Omen again, but he has mastered a technique that even the Gods can not easily master and overtake the Hakaishins

Compare that to any other member of U7, and you will see that Goku had an exaggerated highlight on this arc and much more fights than the others. It makes no sense to complain about his defeat.
Every Vegeta fan and fan boy would trade his feats for Goku's.

Goku fan boys aren't content unless he beats everyone and completely humilates Vegeta. Because no one else can have any attention, it's the Goku show with the rest of the Z fighters as spectators for Goku's greatness.

I swear a lot of them get triggered whenever Vegeta or Gohan get something, no one else can be strong or popular on Goku's show in their minds. Vegeta/Gohan fans would kill to get this close to Jiren even if it resulted in defeat and here they are going off at the show because Goku didn't asspull his way to victory.

The idea of Super was interesting, but IMO they writing let them down. The only good thing to come out of this series was UI, it's without a doubt their best transformation yet. It's similar to GT in that way.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:41 pm

As someone who doesn't really care too much for the infallible Goku bulldozer identity, I have to say that his loss here doesn't disappoint me. Despite his loss, you could argue that his battles and their outcomes have been treated with more dignity than what a number of other characters have received. To the people who determine his worth by the number of "victory" tallies he has it may look bad, but I would say that with respect to his pursuance of breaking through his limits and testing his mettle against the strongest beings in existence, he's done quite well for himself. Vegeta was working right alongside him in becoming stronger, aspiring to master the principles of Whis' training and acquire Ultra Instinct -- the most he was able to achieve was an equilibrium with the transformative state that Goku opted to use in desperation against Jiren during their initial fight before losing. Nothing seems to indicate that all of his efforts to gain UI will be paying off anytime soon. Goku can at least hang his head high with satisfaction, knowing he mastered what Whis was hoping for him to learn. Where does that leave him now? Does he continue training with Whis or will he move on to some new teacher like Daishinkan?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:44 pm

Guys, Goku only loses due to being rung out. Read the spoilers, it isn't describing it as if Jiren knocked him unconscious or anything. Instead he pushes Goku out the ring, and they still want to continue the fight

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Yedis » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:47 pm

OLKv3 wrote:Guys, Goku only loses due to being rung out. Read the spoilers, it isn't describing it as if Jiren knocked him unconscious or anything. Instead he pushes Goku out the ring, and they still want to continue the fight
Isn't this how most fighters in the tournament have lost?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:49 pm

Yedis wrote:
OLKv3 wrote:Guys, Goku only loses due to being rung out. Read the spoilers, it isn't describing it as if Jiren knocked him unconscious or anything. Instead he pushes Goku out the ring, and they still want to continue the fight
Isn't this how most fighters in the tournament have lost?
No, most of them got completely overpowered either by a OHKO or a failed beam struggle.
This looks like Jiren pulls a strat similar to the one Goku used on Kefla

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:05 pm

Aman wrote: They can't make up another end game without some BS Goku> God of All. Which would be the dumbest shit ever, but definitely possible with Akira and Toei.

Zeno is the one character that should never be close to being surpassed, but with DB writing it's sadly on the cards.

The series has jumped the shark in terms of telling a good story and has become all about power and transformations.
You mean like they can't BS how Goku was fighting people stronger than Kami, aka god, from Dragon Ball or Satan? Or the strongest being in the universe?

If it already jumped the shark, what different does it makes if it jumps more sharks?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:06 pm

OLKv3 wrote:Guys, Goku only loses due to being rung out. Read the spoilers, it isn't describing it as if Jiren knocked him unconscious or anything. Instead he pushes Goku out the ring, and they still want to continue the fight
That's assuming that Jiren 'blowing Goku away' relates to him being rung out.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:09 pm

Aman wrote: Goku fan boys aren't content unless he beats everyone and completely humilates Vegeta. Because no one else can have any attention, it's the Goku show with the rest of the Z fighters as spectators for Goku's greatness.

I swear a lot of them get triggered whenever Vegeta or Gohan get something, no one else can be strong or popular on Goku's show in their minds. Vegeta/Gohan fans would kill to get this close to Jiren even if it resulted in defeat and here they are going off at the show because Goku didn't asspull his way to victory.
You should peep sintzu's signature, which comes from this post by ToshioWrites, which pretty much sums up what ya said. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:13 pm

OLKv3 wrote:Guys, Goku only loses due to being rung out. Read the spoilers, it isn't describing it as if Jiren knocked him unconscious or anything. Instead he pushes Goku out the ring, and they still want to continue the fight
Yep and it seems that since Goku falls out of the ring they both look at the Zenoh's and Zenoh still doesn't declare the fight over yet. :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:23 pm

Aman wrote:Going toe to toe with Jiren is far more impressive than anything Vegeta has done or ever will do in the franchise. Let's stop kidding ourselves here. Akira/Toei would never give Vegeta that kind of rub as that's reserved for Goku. They're not even in the same stratosphere in power levels anymore, and we don't even know if Vegeta will ever catch up as UI is supposedly more difficult for Vegeta to achieve. The only thing Vegeta has really gotten in Super is character development. Goku on the other hand has regressed even more and is more one dimensional than ever. He's a weak protagonist compared to the new generation who are far deeper, more developed and thoughtful characters.
Just read the context: I'm not a Vegeta fan, my whole point with that is that apart from UI, I don't see Goku having much impresive feats than Vegeta besides the power difference and transformations since he always lose.
HeroR wrote:Goku said that Vegeta 'may' have surpassed him in Resurrection 'F' .
The same people Goku could have taken out and Frost was weakened from getting his ass kicked by Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta knew about the poison needle unlike Goku and Piccolo.
And Goku melted half of Merged Zamasu's face and broke his halo, while Trunks and Vegeta together did jack.
Goku actually had more eliminations that Vegeta after 118.
Which is nice, if Kaioken x20 wasn't vastly outdated by this point. Goku is fighting someone above a God of Destruction, so...
- Not basing myself on movies, but in how Goku said to Gohan and Krillin how Vegeta was impressive becoming Blue without turning into God first.
- He could, but he didn't. I don't see how Goku would beat Magetta as he don't insult people, before you say that he could overpower him, nothing guarantees that Magetta would be defeated that way.
- But still didn't acomplished nothing, he still had to rely on fusion and both failed.
- Even considering team work?
- Goku don't use UI so easily like he turns into SSJB yet, so I don't see how the transformation is outdated.
- Vegeta still defeated a God first and it doesn't matter if Goku is fighting someone stronger if he might ends losing anyway.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:- Vegeta overtook Goku for a brief moment, in counterpart, before that he was literally stepped on and totally humiliated psychologically by Beerus (something that did not happen in the movie). And in the anime, Goku still beats the powers of the SSG in the fight against Beerus
- At the Champa tournament, Vegeta only eliminated fodder, nothing that Goku could not do. In the real battle, he served as a ladder and was humiliated by Hitto without striking a blow. After that, he was still overcome by Goku again (unlike the manga, in the anime Goku gets stronger than Vegeta during several sagas followed, something that was not even in DBZ)
- Beat Black for 3 minutes and shortly after Black took power out of nowhere and cornered Vegeta again, and only merged because Zamasu became scared, making it appear that all of Vegeta's training was useless (before, Vegeta had already been defeated twice ).
- Again, in the ToP, Vegeta practically also only eliminated fodder. Before the final against U11, he had no great fight like Goku and did not eliminate any great opponents.
- In particular, I consider Beyond Blue above KK x20. But is it serious that you are using this as an argument? It seems that the writers did not make an effort and make a shocking scene of transformation and in the end all this proved much inferior to the current UI Omen


- Goku was humilated by Beerus before then and with SSJG acomplished nothing.
- Like I said to HeroR, he could, but he didn’t and nothing garantees Goku would beat Magetta if he don’t insult people. He served as a ladder, but Goku still lose the tournament anyway.
- Yes, but Vegeta wasn’t humilated like the first time, Black was just toying with them before the fusion. Goku was severely hurt by Black and never took that back on him. Goku lose to Black twice too.
- Fodders or not, he still was useful helping his universe by cleaning the field and Vegeta vs. Toppo was a great fight too, not impressive as Goku vs. Jiren, sure, but still Vegeta defeated his foe.
- Again, Like I said to HeroR: Being inferior or not, UI is not a transformation/technique that Goku uses so easily like he does with SSJB yet. So KKx20+Blue still not outdated and Vegeta managed to reach a transformation strong enough to rival that power.
In the Exhibition tournament:
- Beat Bergamo easily, surprised all the gods with SSB
- He faced Toppo, a candidate for GoD, and was defeating him.

In Recruitment:
- Faced Kuririn
- Faced 17
- Faced and beat Ultimate Gohan stronger than ever
- Faced Slim Boo
- Faced and beat Muten Roshi controlled
- Faced and tied with True Golden Freeza

In the tournament:
- Eliminated an entire universe next to Vegeta on EP 98
- Faced Caulifla and Kale SSJ Berserker on EP 100
- Faced Dyspo and Kunshi alongside Hitto on EP 104 (with SSG return)
- Faced the U2 Sniper next to Vegeta on EP 106
- Had a one-hour special entirely dedicated to his fight against Jiren and gained power ups like SSB KK x20 and UI Omen on EP 109 and 110
- Faced Caulifla, Kale and Kefla for 4 episodes until activating UI Omen again on EP 113 - 116
- Faced and defeated the last 3 members of U2 on EP 118
- Facing the U3 robots next to Vegeta and Gohan on EP 120
- Faced and beat Aniraza alongside the U7 team on EP 121
- faced Jiren again and almost eliminated him using strategy
- And now, not only has he used UI Omen again, but he has mastered a technique that even the Gods can not easily master and overtake the Hakaishins

Compare that to any other member of U7, and you will see that Goku had an exaggerated highlight on this arc and much more fights than the others. It makes no sense to complain about his defeat.
- Nothing that Vegeta couldn’t have done.
- He was not even close of defeating Toppo as we know now what as his full power.
- These are just sparring matches, how are these considering feats? Is like saying Piccolo beating Kid Gohan in the Saiyan arc as a impressive feat.
- You added Vegeta to the feat.
- He was trashed by Kale using Blue (doesn't matter if he was holding back).
- He relied on Hit on that one and now he know that Dyspo could have defeated them in any time.
- Again added Vegeta to the feat.
- SSJB + KKx20 is not a "gained power up" but a improvement, UI acomplished nothing besides a few cool scenes.
- That was a interesting fight, so I give you that. I don't think SSJB Evolution Vegeta could defeat SSJ2 Kefla.
- I could say that these last 3 from U2 were fodders (the same argument you used before), but I'll give you that one too.
- Again added Vegeta to the feat. (What's the point if we're comparing the two?)
- Aniraza was a team work like you stated, so no point in using that was argument.
- "Almost" is not done it.
- It's highly implied that Goku have surpassed the GoDs, but there's no statements yet.

I compared and I still think it's pretty standard for a protagonist, people talks like Goku had Seiya or Yugi levels of protagonism and he's not even close to that! All that you showed to me, still don't change the fact that Goku acomplished little in Super compared to Z and DB and it would be more than okay for him to get the main win in the series finale.
Power levels are not just big numbers:

by Doctor.

Jigurashi
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:25 pm

Aman wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:Where are you getting that Vegeta has more impressive feats from? Goku easily has better feats than Vegeta in Super.
Here
Going toe to toe with Jiren is far more impressive than anything Vegeta has done or ever will do in the franchise. Let's stop kidding ourselves here. Akita/Toei would never give Vegeta that kind of rub as that's reserved for Goku.

They're not even in the same stratosphere in power levels anymore, and we don't even know if Vegeta will ever catch up as UI is supposedly more difficult for Vegeta to achieve.

The only thing Vegeta has really gotten in Super is character development. Goku on the other hand has regressed even more and is more one dimensional than ever. He's a weak protagonist compared to the new generation who are far deeper, more developed and thoughtful characters.
Sort of agree. Goku hasn’t really developed but Vegeta himself hasn’t gone through much development in Super either besides with Cabba. At the same time, I don’t see how Goku is currently regressed as a character and how are the new generation deeper more thoughtful and developed characters?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:44 pm

Hmm. The title of 131 is "A Miraculous Conclusion! Farewell, Goku!"

Freeza eliminating Jiren as the spoilers imply is a miracle? I'd argue that's anything but, given Freeza's intentions if he wins it all.

What could it mean... :think:

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