"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

- Vegeta overtook Goku for a brief moment, in counterpart, before that he was literally stepped on and totally humiliated psychologically by Beerus (something that did not happen in the movie). And in the anime, Goku still beats the powers of the SSG in the fight against Beerus
- At the Champa tournament, Vegeta only eliminated fodder, nothing that Goku could not do. In the real battle, he served as a ladder and was humiliated by Hitto without striking a blow. After that, he was still overcome by Goku again (unlike the manga, in the anime Goku gets stronger than Vegeta during several sagas followed, something that was not even in DBZ)
- Beat Black for 3 minutes and shortly after Black took power out of nowhere and cornered Vegeta again, and only merged because Zamasu became scared, making it appear that all of Vegeta's training was useless (before, Vegeta had already been defeated twice ).
- Again, in the ToP, Vegeta practically also only eliminated fodder. Before the final against U11, he had no great fight like Goku and did not eliminate any great opponents.
- In particular, I consider Beyond Blue above KK x20. But is it serious that you are using this as an argument? It seems that the writers did not make an effort and make a shocking scene of transformation and in the end all this proved much inferior to the current UI Omen

- Goku was humilated by Beerus before then and with SSJG acomplished nothing.
- Like I said to HeroR, he could, but he didn’t and nothing garantees Goku would beat Magetta if he don’t insult people. He served as a ladder, but Goku still lose the tournament anyway.
- Yes, but Vegeta wasn’t humilated like the first time, Black was just toying with them before the fusion. Goku was severely hurt by Black and never took that back on him. Goku lose to Black twice too.
- Fodders or not, he still was useful helping his universe by cleaning the field and Vegeta vs. Toppo was a great fight too, not impressive as Goku vs. Jiren, sure, but still Vegeta defeated his foe.
- Again, Like I said to HeroR: Being inferior or not, UI is not a transformation/technique that Goku uses so easily like he does with SSJB yet. So KKx20+Blue still not outdated and Vegeta managed to reach a transformation strong enough to rival that power.

- Goku was only defeated by Beerus, not humiliated. Vegeta was literally trampled and psychologically humiliated by Beerus, saying that the prince of the Saiyans was nothing.

- Goku was obviously able to beat Magetta, he still had SSB. And it does not matter if Goku lost the tournament, he gained a new UP in power, overcame Vegeta and overcame the Time Skip of Hitto twice

- Vegeta was not humiliated in this case, but he was still trapped and made all his training useless. Goku lost to Black, but only after beating Black and Zamasu together with a rage boost. After that, he managed to counter an attack of Merged Zamasu alone, something that Vegeta and Trunks put together for some reason did not

"Was it still useful to clear the field?" These enemies could be defeated by any other U7 member. And I'm talking about the tournament before the final battle. Before that, Vegeta did nothing

- It does not matter if the UI can not be easily accessed by Goku, it's still a power he has and that makes him much stronger than Vegeta

- Nothing that Vegeta couldn’t have done.
- He was not even close of defeating Toppo as we know now what as his full power.
- These are just sparring matches, how are these considering feats? Is like saying Piccolo beating Kid Gohan in the Saiyan arc as a impressive feat.
- You added Vegeta to the feat.
- He was trashed by Kale using Blue (doesn't matter if he was holding back).
- He relied on Hit on that one and now he know that Dyspo could have defeated them in any time.
- Again added Vegeta to the feat.
- SSJB + KKx20 is not a "gained power up" but a improvement, UI acomplished nothing besides a few cool scenes.
- That was a interesting fight, so I give you that. I don't think SSJB Evolution Vegeta could defeat SSJ2 Kefla.
- I could say that these last 3 from U2 were fodders (the same argument you used before), but I'll give you that one too.
- Again added Vegeta to the feat. (What's the point if we're comparing the two?)
- Aniraza was a team work like you stated, so no point in using that was argument.
- "Almost" is not done it.
- It's highly implied that Goku have surpassed the GoDs, but there's no statements yet.

I compared and I still think it's pretty standard for a protagonist, people talks like Goku had Seiya or Yugi levels of protagonism and he's not even close to that! All that you showed to me, still don't change the fact that Goku acomplished little in Super compared to Z and DB and it would be more than okay for him to get the main win in the series finale.

- I'm not talking about Toppo with his '' Hakaishin transformation'', in the exhibition tournament he had not shown it and Goku was in advantage at the beginning of the fight

- No matter if they were sparring, they were still fights that received whole episodes dedicated to them (with the exception of Goku Vs Slim Boo) and they had great prominence

- I'm not talking about winning or losing, but about having a really important fight

- SSB KK x20 is a new power up, it's something he could not do before but now in the tournament he does

- The fight with Aniraza was team work, but Goku was still present and was very active, unlike Vegeta and Gohan who did almost nothing

- '' Almost '' is a lot, because we're talking about almost eliminating Jiren

- Yes, he overcame the Hakaishins and mastered a technique that even the Gods can not

Do you think Goku having more than 19 fights in this saga (the other sagas in DBZ have had nothing close to that), 3 power ups and much prominence is something '' standard '' for a protagonist? If you see Naruto for example, it is something much more balanced (perhaps taking out the ninja war, and that even so other characters have stood out)

[Kaiosama]

Very interesting that they decided to let Jiren beat Goku. Kinda like how Yuske lost during the last tournament in Yu Yu Hakosho after becoming ridiculously powerful. Gives Goku something more to work towards. Maybe Jiren breaks his limits and obtains UI as well.

Also Vegeta doesn't have any better feats than Goku in this series. Goku has more feats in this tournament alone than Vegeta does throughout the entirety of Super. The only advantage Vegeta might still have is being able to access SSB Evolution at will over Goku only being able to access UI in extreme circumstances. Forget Vegeta. Goku has most likely surpassed Beerus(which is a HUGE feat).

[HeroR]

Going toe to toe with Jiren is far more impressive than anything Vegeta has done or ever will do in the franchise. Let's stop kidding ourselves here. Akira/Toei would never give Vegeta that kind of rub as that's reserved for Goku. They're not even in the same stratosphere in power levels anymore, and we don't even know if Vegeta will ever catch up as UI is supposedly more difficult for Vegeta to achieve. The only thing Vegeta has really gotten in Super is character development. Goku on the other hand has regressed even more and is more one dimensional than ever. He's a weak protagonist compared to the new generation who are far deeper, more developed and thoughtful characters.

Just read the context: I'm not a Vegeta fan, my whole point with that is that apart from UI, I don't see Goku having much impresive feats than Vegeta besides the power difference and transformations since he always lose.

Goku said that Vegeta 'may' have surpassed him in Resurrection 'F' .
The same people Goku could have taken out and Frost was weakened from getting his ass kicked by Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta knew about the poison needle unlike Goku and Piccolo.
And Goku melted half of Merged Zamasu's face and broke his halo, while Trunks and Vegeta together did jack.
Goku actually had more eliminations that Vegeta after 118.
Which is nice, if Kaioken x20 wasn't vastly outdated by this point. Goku is fighting someone above a God of Destruction, so...

- Not basing myself on movies, but in how Goku said to Gohan and Krillin how Vegeta was impressive becoming Blue without turning into God first.
- He could, but he didn't. I don't see how Goku would beat Magetta as he don't insult people, before you say that he could overpower him, nothing guarantees that Magetta would be defeated that way.
- But still didn't acomplished nothing, he still had to rely on fusion and both failed.
- Even considering team work?
- Goku don't use UI so easily like he turns into SSJB yet, so I don't see how the transformation is outdated.
- Vegeta still defeated a God first and it doesn't matter if Goku is fighting someone stronger if he might ends losing anyway.

- Vegeta overtook Goku for a brief moment, in counterpart, before that he was literally stepped on and totally humiliated psychologically by Beerus (something that did not happen in the movie). And in the anime, Goku still beats the powers of the SSG in the fight against Beerus
- At the Champa tournament, Vegeta only eliminated fodder, nothing that Goku could not do. In the real battle, he served as a ladder and was humiliated by Hitto without striking a blow. After that, he was still overcome by Goku again (unlike the manga, in the anime Goku gets stronger than Vegeta during several sagas followed, something that was not even in DBZ)
- Beat Black for 3 minutes and shortly after Black took power out of nowhere and cornered Vegeta again, and only merged because Zamasu became scared, making it appear that all of Vegeta's training was useless (before, Vegeta had already been defeated twice ).
- Again, in the ToP, Vegeta practically also only eliminated fodder. Before the final against U11, he had no great fight like Goku and did not eliminate any great opponents.
- In particular, I consider Beyond Blue above KK x20. But is it serious that you are using this as an argument? It seems that the writers did not make an effort and make a shocking scene of transformation and in the end all this proved much inferior to the current UI Omen

- Goku was humilated by Beerus before then and with SSJG acomplished nothing.
- Like I said to HeroR, he could, but he didn’t and nothing garantees Goku would beat Magetta if he don’t insult people. He served as a ladder, but Goku still lose the tournament anyway.
- Yes, but Vegeta wasn’t humilated like the first time, Black was just toying with them before the fusion. Goku was severely hurt by Black and never took that back on him. Goku lose to Black twice too.
- Fodders or not, he still was useful helping his universe by cleaning the field and Vegeta vs. Toppo was a great fight too, not impressive as Goku vs. Jiren, sure, but still Vegeta defeated his foe.
- Again, Like I said to HeroR: Being inferior or not, UI is not a transformation/technique that Goku uses so easily like he does with SSJB yet. So KKx20+Blue still not outdated and Vegeta managed to reach a transformation strong enough to rival that power.

In the Exhibition tournament:
- Beat Bergamo easily, surprised all the gods with SSB
- He faced Toppo, a candidate for GoD, and was defeating him.

In Recruitment:
- Faced Kuririn
- Faced 17
- Faced and beat Ultimate Gohan stronger than ever
- Faced Slim Boo
- Faced and beat Muten Roshi controlled
- Faced and tied with True Golden Freeza

In the tournament:
- Eliminated an entire universe next to Vegeta on EP 98
- Faced Caulifla and Kale SSJ Berserker on EP 100
- Faced Dyspo and Kunshi alongside Hitto on EP 104 (with SSG return)
- Faced the U2 Sniper next to Vegeta on EP 106
- Had a one-hour special entirely dedicated to his fight against Jiren and gained power ups like SSB KK x20 and UI Omen on EP 109 and 110
- Faced Caulifla, Kale and Kefla for 4 episodes until activating UI Omen again on EP 113 - 116
- Faced and defeated the last 3 members of U2 on EP 118
- Facing the U3 robots next to Vegeta and Gohan on EP 120
- Faced and beat Aniraza alongside the U7 team on EP 121
- faced Jiren again and almost eliminated him using strategy
- And now, not only has he used UI Omen again, but he has mastered a technique that even the Gods can not easily master and overtake the Hakaishins

Compare that to any other member of U7, and you will see that Goku had an exaggerated highlight on this arc and much more fights than the others. It makes no sense to complain about his defeat.

- Nothing that Vegeta couldn’t have done.
- He was not even close of defeating Toppo as we know now what as his full power.
- These are just sparring matches, how are these considering feats? Is like saying Piccolo beating Kid Gohan in the Saiyan arc as a impressive feat.
- You added Vegeta to the feat.
- He was trashed by Kale using Blue (doesn't matter if he was holding back).
- He relied on Hit on that one and now he know that Dyspo could have defeated them in any time.
- Again added Vegeta to the feat.
- SSJB + KKx20 is not a "gained power up" but a improvement, UI acomplished nothing besides a few cool scenes.
- That was a interesting fight, so I give you that. I don't think SSJB Evolution Vegeta could defeat SSJ2 Kefla.
- I could say that these last 3 from U2 were fodders (the same argument you used before), but I'll give you that one too.
- Again added Vegeta to the feat. (What's the point if we're comparing the two?)
- Aniraza was a team work like you stated, so no point in using that was argument.
- "Almost" is not done it.
- It's highly implied that Goku have surpassed the GoDs, but there's no statements yet.

I compared and I still think it's pretty standard for a protagonist, people talks like Goku had Seiya or Yugi levels of protagonism and he's not even close to that! All that you showed to me, still don't change the fact that Goku acomplished little in Super compared to Z and DB and it would be more than okay for him to get the main win in the series finale.

All Goku really said is that he got godhood without a ritual.

Goku has battle smarts as shown with Botamo and you can beat Magetta without insulting. I mean, Vegeta basically did by destroying the ground under him. And Goku probably could 'overpowered' him since Magatta nearly shat himself when Vegeta went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the TOP. I mean, Goku even outright said that Vegeta would have won easily if he just went Blue.

Vegeta beating on Black didn't do much either since Black just got stronger, played with Vegeta and Goku, than fused with Merged Zamasu, so I'm not really seeing your point here. If it didn't count since it didn't matter in the end, why did you even mentioned Vegeta beating on Black?

You mean the teamwork that didn't work?

[Nevaeh]

Guys, Goku only loses due to being rung out. Read the spoilers, it isn't describing it as if Jiren knocked him unconscious or anything. Instead he pushes Goku out the ring, and they still want to continue the fight

Goku will probably run out of juice ala the special

Jiren will be exhausted prompting the biggest "ohohoho" in the history of Dragon ball

[ShaneisMC]

No where does it actually say that Goku has been eliminated or lost. It's implied IF the only thing you take into account is that first sentence or two. But if you actually think about the way that the middle portion of the spoiler was written and try to place its contents into context and try to make sense of them then I believe if anything what has actually happened is that Goku has fallen from the main arena down to a lower rock or something and is maxed out and more or less likely out of power and on the brink of losing, but has NOT been officially eliminated yet. Why do I have reason to believe this? Well lets look at it. It says "having broken through his limits, Goku and Jiren stare at the Omni-Kings, as if the match isn't over yet." ....... Ok so that to me says several things. "having broken through his limits" is an active sounding perspective. As in active like Goku has broken through his limits or another way of potentially describing it is that he has completely gone overboard and likely out of power perhaps but that he is still technically in. Otherwise what would be the point of them mentioning that in the first place? It would be completely irrelevant to bring up his physical state if he were completely out of the picture, but yet still believed that the tournament wasn't over. "Goku and Jiren stare at the Omni-Kings, as if the match isn't over yet." IF Goku was definitely completely eliminated then why was this worded the way that it was? It would seem to indicate that both Goku AND Jiren personally have the mental perspective that the match isn't over as they look towards the Omni-Kings. IF BOTH Goku and Jiren are looking at them "as if the match isn't over yet." then why would they be doing this unless Goku was still technically in bounds? If Goku was clearly eliminated then why would the both of them be looking towards the Omni-Kings "as if the match wasn't over yet."? If Goku was definitely eliminated, but he AND Jiren still have the perspective that "the match isn't over yet." the only way that would make sense would be if they both remembered that Freeza was still in bounds. Otherwise why would they have written it out as if the context was that the both of them still thought the tournament wasn't over? And if that's the case then Goku you would think would be looking around the arena from the bleachers for Freeza and that Jiren should be looking around trying to find him as well. But they aren't. They're looking towards the Omni-Kings........ That whole center passage is worded very awkwardly, especially if you try to place it in context with what was said beforehand. I think they worded it awkwardly on purpose. I could be wrong naturally, but things as they are just don't seem to completely add up to me unless Goku is still technically in bounds. Their actions and the context provided just doesn't make sense unless either Goku hasn't been eliminated or they remember that Freeza is still around in which case wtf are the both of them doing just staring at the Omni Kings if they think things aren't over yet?

[sintzu]

Very interesting that they decided to let Jiren beat Goku. Kinda like how Yuske lost during the last tournament in Yu Yu Hakosho after becoming ridiculously powerful. Gives Goku something more to work towards.

The difference is that there are already targets for Goku to try and reach such as the other 4 universes and the angels. Yuske on the other hand didn't have that plus he'd been winning most if not all his fights, Goku on the other hand has just been empty hype since modern DB started. Goku losing AGAIN, isn't new or a surprising, it's just predictable and unoriginal at this point.

[precita]

So the whole silver haired transformation was pointless?

Why the hell did they even introduce it in this arc then? His regular Ultra Instinct form could have lost, and they could have saved Goku Blanco for the next series. So what's next, rainbow-haired Super Saiyan?

[JazzMazz]

I am curious how ANYONE can seriously defend this nonsense. What an absolutely TERRIBLE way for this show to end. Just awful. Not only does Goku lose the final fight AGAIN, but they did all this build up for UI and it meant NOTHING in the end. NOTHING. What a waste of everyone's time.

The fact that there are seriously people out there that are willing to defend this trash is baffling. ENOUGH, with the "twist" endings. ENOUGH. Is it too much to ask for the Goku/the heroes to win one arc? Just ONE? Please?

But Goku always wins in the end...right guys? Right? Oh yea, no he doesn't. I don't want to hear anyone repeat this blatantly false statement ever again. You're just objectively incorrect

I absolutely agree with this sentiment. Goku constantly falling short of defeating the big bad of literally every arc has kind of gotten a bit stale and almost formulaic. At this point, I think it would be more subversive if Goku actually just won.

Instead we get another Toriyama "twist" ending where Goku loses because screw satisfying pay offs, who the hell needs that?

Though I'm sure the events of the episode will be well handled(considering the director and storboarder is extremely talented), I think the actual content will probably not be to a lot of peoples tastes.

I feel like this would be the equivalent of Goku achieving Super Saiyan in the Namek arc, a form that described as being so legendary that no one was even sure it existed, and then still getting killed by Freeza despite that, with Freeza instead dying in the explosion. Or if Gohan still got completely annihilated by Cell despite turning SS2, and it was Yamcha who finished off Cell. What I'm getting at, twists don't work if what you've been building up to doesn't have some form of immediate pay-off for the characters. Hell, its fine to have the characters still lose after said pay-off, I think a good example would be the Steel Ball Run arc of JoJo's, where the main characters defeat after his emotional pay-off still falls in line with the personal history of the character.

Personally, I think a far stronger ending would be Goku successfully knocks Jiren off the stage and considered the strongest mortal in existence, and is then stabbed in the back and knocked off the fighting arena by Freeza. Not only do you still have that emotional pay-off with Goku defeating Jiren, but you also have Goku having to face the consequences of his own hubris, with Freeza betraying him. Freeza, the warrior he knew would betray him, and whom he himself suggested should join the team. To me thats a far more impactful and emotional ending to the tournament than Freeza saving the day and Goku being rewarded for his crap decision making abilities, with the scene going something along the lines of...
"Good one Freeza, you really saved us there, imagine what would have happened if I hadn't asked Freeza to join the team. We would of all been erased."
Ugh.

I would rather Goku experience the immediate ramifications of own hubris, instead of lapping up in the benefits of it.

[Professor Freeza]

I love the meltdown of Goku fanboys. So satisfying.


But this ending was the best possible. Here's why:

1) Finally a top shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle.

2) Just writes 2 main arc stories for the next series. The freeza storyline and Goku vs Jiren 3.

3) The endgame needed freeza win. He was brought back ONLY for this. Also he said he didn't want to deal with Jiren but he has to.

4) A villain getting the final laugh is a first. Zamasu did win but also was erased. Freeza won't be.

5) Classic toriyama subversion. Even the Main character with his best powerup since og ssj couldn't win. Hell even Toyotaro approved otherwise Toriyama would have changed it.

[HeroR]

I love the meltdown of Goku fanboys. So satisfying.


But this ending was the best possible. Here's why:

1) Finally a top shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle.

2) Just writes 2 main arc stories for the next series. The freeza storyline and Goku vs Jiren 3.

3) The endgame needed freeza win. He was brought back ONLY for this. Also he said he didn't want to deal with Jiren but he has to.

4) A villain getting the final laugh is a first. Zamasu did win but also was erased. Freeza won't be.

5) Classic toriyama subversion. Even the Main character with his best powerup since og ssj couldn't win. Hell even Toyotaro approved otherwise Toriyama would have changed it.

Who says that Freeza won? And Toriyama doesn't take direction from Toyo, just some suggestions.

And there are actually a few shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle. Ever read HxH or Death Note? Heck, or even Jo Jo? I mean, Pokemon is a shonen and it's built on Ash never winning the league.

[Professor Freeza]

I love the meltdown of Goku fanboys. So satisfying.


But this ending was the best possible. Here's why:

1) Finally a top shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle.

2) Just writes 2 main arc stories for the next series. The freeza storyline and Goku vs Jiren 3.

3) The endgame needed freeza win. He was brought back ONLY for this. Also he said he didn't want to deal with Jiren but he has to.

4) A villain getting the final laugh is a first. Zamasu did win but also was erased. Freeza won't be.

5) Classic toriyama subversion. Even the Main character with his best powerup since og ssj couldn't win. Hell even Toyotaro approved otherwise Toriyama would have changed it.

Who says that Freeza won? And Toriyama doesn't take direction from Toyo, just some suggestions.

And there are actually a few shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle. Ever read HxH or Death Note? Heck, or even Jo Jo? I mean, Pokemon is a shonen and it's built on Ash never winning the league.

Title is "Miraculous ending". Goku lost everyone thought u11 won. Freeza comes beats Jiren gets the win. Is that so hard to comprehend?

And if it's in more shonen then there's more reason to do this.
Besides, classic Toriyama subversion has given us great things all the time.

Truly this is the best arc since Namek for me....

[HeroR]

Title is "Miraculous ending". Goku lost everyone thought u11 won. Freeza comes beats Jiren gets the win. Is that so hard to comprehend?

And if it's in more shonen then there's more reason to do this.
Besides, classic Toriyama subversion has given us great things all the time.

Truly this is the best arc since Namek for me....

Could be a tie. And all the summery said was that Freeza shot a Death Beam at Jiren. It doesn't even say if it did anything to him.

Why would you do something just because more people do it? Wouldn't you want to be different or just tell your own story instead of following a trend? And it really isn't a subversion given Goku's win record, especially in tournaments. I mean, how many times can you have a character lose before it becomes a trend and not a subversion? I mean, no one calls Ash losing a Pokemon league a subversion.

[dbgtFO]

Do you guys remember that one dude who used to post here a lot but quit after episode 100? I wonder how he's feeling right about now.

i feel like I do but cant remember the name.

I recall saansrival leaving the board some time ago, so perhaps it's him you are referring to.

[Lord Frieza]

Gotta say it’s not just his Super revecord that’s agenst Goku, his tournament one is as well.

21st budokai - lost to short legs

22nd budokai - lost to van

Baba’s tournament - won due to his grandfathers self ring out

23rd budokai - won fair and square

Otherworld tournament - double disqualification

Universe 6 tournament - quit but team one due to Hit’s self ring out.

Betting wise, Goku’s odds of winning under his own power were 1/6 while his odds of winning at all (I.e. him being last man standing) were 2/6. Goku’s the embodiment of a bad bet.

[SupremeKai25]

I love the meltdown of Goku fanboys. So satisfying.


But this ending was the best possible. Here's why:

1) Finally a top shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle.

2) Just writes 2 main arc stories for the next series. The freeza storyline and Goku vs Jiren 3.

3) The endgame needed freeza win. He was brought back ONLY for this. Also he said he didn't want to deal with Jiren but he has to.

4) A villain getting the final laugh is a first. Zamasu did win but also was erased. Freeza won't be.

5) Classic toriyama subversion. Even the Main character with his best powerup since og ssj couldn't win. Hell even Toyotaro approved otherwise Toriyama would have changed it.

I completely agree with you. I have loved Frieza in this arc, with his secret plot to control the Gods and his secretive and malicious nature. It would be very interesting if he emerged victorious. And Jiren is an idiot if he truly forgot about Frieza. Like... come on... use your brain Jiren...

Also, on the subject of Zamasu, he still had the last laugh. Even if he got erased, he brought the Future timeline down along with him, which means that Trunks failed in his original objective. For a moment, Zamasu did win. Too bad his victory was short-lived because Goku used one of the biggest asspulls ever made to defeat him. But still, Trunks cannot return to his original timeline, I call it one last laugh by Zamasu.

[HeroR]

I love the meltdown of Goku fanboys. So satisfying.


But this ending was the best possible. Here's why:

1) Finally a top shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle.

2) Just writes 2 main arc stories for the next series. The freeza storyline and Goku vs Jiren 3.

3) The endgame needed freeza win. He was brought back ONLY for this. Also he said he didn't want to deal with Jiren but he has to.

4) A villain getting the final laugh is a first. Zamasu did win but also was erased. Freeza won't be.

5) Classic toriyama subversion. Even the Main character with his best powerup since og ssj couldn't win. Hell even Toyotaro approved otherwise Toriyama would have changed it.

I completely agree with you. I have loved Frieza in this arc, with his secret plot to control the Gods and his secretive and malicious nature. It would be very interesting if he emerged victorious. And Jiren is an idiot if he truly forgot about Frieza. Like... come on... use your brain Jiren...

Also, on the subject of Zamasu, he still had the last laugh. Even if he got erased, he brought the Future timeline down along with him, which means that Trunks failed in his original objective. For a moment, Zamasu did win. Too bad his victory was short-lived because Goku used one of the biggest asspulls ever made to defeat him.

How was the Zen'o button an asspull when it was given to Goku in 55 and wasn't used until 67? To be an asspull, Goku would have to produced the button out of nowhere with no foreshadowing.

But Trunks got the last laugh since he's still alive with Mai and can rebuild in a new world, while Zamasu is literally nothing. I mean, hard to get the last laugh when you're utterly erased.

[HeroR]

Gotta say it’s not just his Super revecord that’s agenst Goku, his tournament one is as well.

21st budokai - lost to short legs

22nd budokai - lost to van

Baba’s tournament - won due to his grandfathers self ring out

23rd budokai - won fair and square

Otherworld tournament - double disqualification

Universe 6 tournament - quit but team one due to Hit’s self ring out.

Betting wise, Goku’s odds of winning under his own power were 1/6 while his odds of winning at all were 2/6. Goku’s the embodiment of a bad bet.

Gohan gave up because Goku's one weakness was gone and he admitted defeat. He didn't ring himself out.

[Lord Frieza]

Gotta say it’s not just his Super revecord that’s agenst Goku, his tournament one is as well.

21st budokai - lost to short legs

22nd budokai - lost to van

Baba’s tournament - won due to his grandfathers self ring out

23rd budokai - won fair and square

Otherworld tournament - double disqualification

Universe 6 tournament - quit but team one due to Hit’s self ring out.

Betting wise, Goku’s odds of winning under his own power were 1/6 while his odds of winning at all were 2/6. Goku’s the embodiment of a bad bet.

Gohan gave up because Goku's one weakness was gone and he admitted defeat. He didn't ring himself out.

Ah Your right (not know why the image of Jackie’s self ringout was in my head when I thought of that) but then you also have the fact that had Gohan genuinely wanted to beat Goku he could have just thrown him out. He was trying to remind Goku of what he had told him about his tail, not actively trying to hurt or beat up his adopted child for the sake of winning.

In the end the result is the same as his fight with Hit, a victory due to the opposite’s better nature rather then anything on Goku’s part.

[HeroR]

Gotta say it’s not just his Super revecord that’s agenst Goku, his tournament one is as well.

21st budokai - lost to short legs

22nd budokai - lost to van

Baba’s tournament - won due to his grandfathers self ring out

23rd budokai - won fair and square

Otherworld tournament - double disqualification

Universe 6 tournament - quit but team one due to Hit’s self ring out.

Betting wise, Goku’s odds of winning under his own power were 1/6 while his odds of winning at all were 2/6. Goku’s the embodiment of a bad bet.

Gohan gave up because Goku's one weakness was gone and he admitted defeat. He didn't ring himself out.

Ah Your right (not know why the image of Jackie’s self ringout was in my head when I thought of that) but then you also have the fact that had Gohan genuinely wanted to beat Goku he could have just thrown him out. He was trying to remind Goku of what he had told him about his tail, not actively trying to hurt or beat up his adopted child for the sake of winning.

In the end the result is the same as his fight with Hit, a victory due to the opposite’s better nature rather then anything on Goku’s part.

That isn't true with Hit since he rung himself out because he owed Goku one for throwing himself out of the ring.

[Zephyr]

I'm fine with Goku losing, we still got the important big narrative payoff regardless of which way the tournament ends:

[spoiler]

The work of the gods ends here

[/spoiler]

With Ultra Instinct now mastered, the work of the gods has indeed finally met its end. Goku has, for all intents and purposes, graduated from Angel University, which he enrolled in officially between Battle of Gods and Revival of F, with some preliminary tutoring from Beerus himself in Battle of Gods:

Beerus asks if Goku is still feeling dissatisfied with godhood, and Goku says he still is. As the two continue to battle, Beerus tells Goku this sort of worthless pride can be a weakness, and it is rare for a Saiyan to get so hung up on such things. Their battle has led them into a subterranean cavern, and Goku says that Vegeta has pride even greater than his own. Beerus points out that even Vegeta threw away that pride earlier, in order to protect everyone. Goku knows, and respects Vegeta for doing so. In fact, seeing Vegeta throw away his princely pride was what made Goku decide to throw away his own pride and become a god. Meanwhile, Kame-Sen’nin wonders what the two of them are talking about. Rather than fighting, Piccolo says it almost seems as if Goku is receiving training.

I'm doubly fine with Freeza coming back with a clutch save. Shame that it's been teased to death with repetitive episode scripts and the transparently coy neglect to his status, but still. Having Freeza save the day for once is way more interesting to me (and appropriately bonkers) than having Goku save the day for the umpteenth time.