Professor Freeza wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote:I love the meltdown of Goku fanboys. So satisfying.
But this ending was the best possible. Here's why:
1) Finally a top shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle.
2) Just writes 2 main arc stories for the next series. The freeza storyline and Goku vs Jiren 3.
3) The endgame needed freeza win. He was brought back ONLY for this. Also he said he didn't want to deal with Jiren but he has to.
4) A villain getting the final laugh is a first. Zamasu did win but also was erased. Freeza won't be.
5) Classic toriyama subversion. Even the Main character with his best powerup since og ssj couldn't win. Hell even Toyotaro approved otherwise Toriyama would have changed it.
Who says that Freeza won? And Toriyama doesn't take direction from Toyo, just some suggestions.
And there are actually a few shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle. Ever read HxH or Death Note? Heck, or even Jo Jo? I mean, Pokemon is a shonen and it's built on Ash never winning the league.
Title is "Miraculous ending". Goku lost everyone thought u11 won. Freeza comes beats Jiren gets the win. Is that so hard to comprehend?
And if it's in more shonen then there's more reason to do this.
Besides, classic Toriyama subversion has given us great things all the time.
Truly this is the best arc since Namek for me....
Mate, I think its good rule to only ever subvert the expectations of a story in the same way once. Super has done so at least 5 times. At this point, it would be more subversive if Goku just got a clean victory. That's how badly these "twist" endings have been done to death.
Also, I've also suggested in my previous posts, potentially far more interesting character driven ways to still have Goku beat Jiren, with Freeza still coming out on top. Even in my idea, it has Goku losing because of his own hubris, as opposed to Jiren just beating the strongest most legendary form in existence that Goku has literally been building towards this entire tournament.
BlueBasilisk wrote:Depending on how stupid this conclusion is, this may be the point where I part ways with Dragon Ball. The heroes losing now and then is fine because it keeps things from being formulaic, but it needs to have some payoff eventually or it just turns into a Pokemon situation where the hero is constantly chasing a carrot you know he's never going to reach. Goku losing to Roshi and Tien paid off when he defeated Piccolo the third time around and became champion.
This is the end of Super, this is the last opportunity this show will have to provide a pay-off moment, and if spoilers are anything to go by, they've decided against that. I would argue that the heroes losing has become formulaic for the show at this point.
Also, Herms' has translated an interview with series director Ryota Nakamura(who will be directing and storyboarding 130), and they've revealed some really interesting stuff about Toriyama's original draft.
Also this little tidbit.
D'oh: the God of Destruction Quitela was another of the characters Toriyama designed first, along with Jiren/Toppo/Dyspo. I accidentally left him off the list.